Skill

[Twiddle]

Western players do have players with innate ability, they just play games like Unreal Tournament and Counter-Strike

[Icarus]

The only skills I have are the ability to learn quickly, and a good memory.
Thats all I have. Thats all I require.

I reckon most players on this forum would get better results if they stopped complaining about their lack of skills in comparison to particular players, and instead worked on developing and refining skills they do have. The "innate ability" argument must be a good excuse for those who don't have good practice habits and a systematic approach to learning.

[Twiddle]

I reckon most players on this forum would get better results if they stopped complaining about their lack of skills in comparison to particular players, and instead worked on developing and refining skills they do have. The "innate ability" argument must be a good excuse for those who don't have good practice habits and a systematic approach to learning.

Innate ability only judges how fast you learn things (see LAOS), but it doesn't judge whether you get to keep a world record (DAB, like most other WR holders, has few other world records).

The main point here still stands that those who keep whining about the innate ability of players don't want to spend the time it takes to get close to or beat a world record.

[Icarus]

The main point here still stands that those who keep whining about the innate ability of players don't want to spend the time it takes to get close to or beat a world record.

These people are probably the same people that view learning a game as work. Yep, that old argument again.

As for WRs, I know I'll never get one in my lifetime (well, aside from the counter stop records at least) but I'm trying within my own limits. I agree, that's the main difference here: those that don't complain, try hard and often succeed within their own limits; those that do complain, fail regardless.

[LUNardei]

I reckon most players on this forum would get better results if they stopped complaining about their lack of skills in comparison to particular players, and instead worked on developing and refining skills they do have. The "innate ability" argument must be a good excuse for those who don't have good practice habits and a systematic approach to learning.

The main point here still stands that those who keep whining about the innate ability of players don't want to spend the time it takes to get close to or beat a world record.

The main point? It's damn right, of course, but it's not the main point right now. Everyone can be really good at shmups just doing the right things, but no way only this can lead you to a WR. At least with modern shooters.So please stop this crusade: every time someone want to explore the "innate ability" point this thing pop up and stop the discussion.
Was anyone whining btw? I'm a friend of the IAs stuff, you know, but I also use to play 1/2/3/4 hours a day and I really want to achieve the best scores I can.

[Icarus]

By all means, feel free to discuss "innate ability". I'd like to see proof of the existence of the Godly player, born with a joypad in his/her hand, however, as all I have gathered so far from this thread is a lot of conjecture.

I'm of the mindset that it take a bit of thought and a lot of practice to get good at any game. I believe that innate ability is only important to more physical sports, and the only thing that is important in the realm of videogaming is mental strength. And you can train mental strength, just like you can train a physical body.

What game was it with the comment "WHY DON'T YOU TRY HARD?" on game over?
That's pretty good advice.

[howmuchkeefe]

I've heard that stimulant use is pretty popular in Japan. I wonder if all that caffeine, nicotine and the odd other 'ines might be contributing to the ownage?

[Nemo]

Western players do have players with innate ability, they just play games like Unreal Tournament and Counter-Strike

I also think Western players have the innate ability, but they aren't in an environment where their skill can flourish.

The only skills I have are the ability to learn quickly, and a good memory.
Thats all I have. Thats all I require.

I reckon most players on this forum would get better results if they stopped complaining about their lack of skills in comparison to particular players, and instead worked on developing and refining skills they do have. The "innate ability" argument must be a good excuse for those who don't have good practice habits and a systematic approach to learning.

You're confusing "shooter skill" with the liberal use of "skills", completely different. And I think more people on this forum would get better results if they just learned to have fun playing these games which would entail ceasing to compare what you do to WR holders and figuring the games out for yourselves *ahem*.

As for WRs, I know I'll never get one in my lifetime

Thus proving my point.

[Icarus]

You're confusing "shooter skill" with the liberal use of "skills", completely different.

And what are these "shooter skills" that no one has seemed to have mentioned yet?

As for WRs, I know I'll never get one in my lifetime

Thus proving my point.

"Know your limits. Then break them."

At least I'm trying. Can't say the same for others. *ahem*

By the way, next time you feel the need to "quote", quote the whole sentence. You completely missed my point and warped the meaning of my comment. *ahem*

[Nemo]

It should also be noted there are different levels of "skill", and like anything else practice is essential to hone it. Also, it's not unconceivable that an "unskilled player" could achieve a WR in like 5 years of playing, but the "skilled" player could achieve the same result in mere months, that's the point of innate ability.

You're confusing "shooter skill" with the liberal use of "skills", completely different.

And what are these "shooter skills" that no one has seemed to have mentioned yet?

It would be an arduous task to evaulate all the variables involve, but the bottom line is simple, the ability to be presented a game and destroy it in the shortest amount of time possible.

By the way, next time you feel the need to "quote", quote the whole sentence. You completely missed my point and warped the meaning of my comment. *ahem*

Uh, not really. The only part I omitted is where you said you play within your limits, which simply reiterates your admission don't possess the innate ability.

[LUNardei]

By all means, feel free to discuss "innate ability".

Of course

I'd like to see proof of the existence of the Godly player, born with a joypad in his/her hand, however, as all I have gathered so far from this thread is a lot of conjecture.

Put it this way: we all have the same tools (we're all human beings). Some tool (keep in mind that I'm using the word tools to descrive things like hand-eye coordination, memory etc.), are useful for shmupping, some are useless. Some of us are better than others in some tools (you said you're good in memory, for example), it's science. You can improve the "level" of your tools, sure, but no one can say that we all can reach the same level. Something wrong? Here and only here the conjeture starts: we can theorize that japanese has better shmups-useful tools, for example, or whatever you want. It's not a proof, of course, we're just discussing the topic "Japanese are way above us in shmups, why?" from a different perspective.

On the other hand, if you say that everyone can get a WR "doing the right things" well, we have another conjecture, but based on nothing. And it's a way to oversemplify the problem.

I'm of the mindset that it take a bit of thought and a lot of practice to get good at any game.

No one is saying the opposite!

I believe that innate ability is only important to more physical sports

I can say: why? Where's the edge between "more physical sports" and videogames? You're always using your body, not only your mind. A thing like chess can be an example of "mental strength only", but not a shmup, in my opinion. In chess you don't need practice to move your stuff, in shmups your hands need to be heavily prepared!

[Icarus]

Put it this way: we all have the same tools (we're all human beings). Some tool (keep in mind that I'm using the word tools to descrive things like hand-eye coordination, memory etc.), are useful for shmupping, some are useless. Some of us are better than others in some tools (you said you're good in memory, for example), it's science. You can improve the "level" of your tools, sure, but no one can say that we all can reach the same level. Something wrong? Here and only here the conjeture starts: we can theorize that japanese has better shmups-useful tools, for example, or whatever you want. It's not a proof, of course, we're just discussing the topic "Japanese are way above us in shmups, why?" from a different perspective.

I don't doubt that at all. However, I do doubt that "innate ability" and "shooter skill" have anything to do with achieving high level play.

Taking the Japanese players and your "we all have the same tools" comment as an example: I see the main reason that players from Japan are able to hit high level scores is that they have good study habits and the desire to compete and excel worked into their lifestyle. I'm not saying that we in the West don't, but its not as prominent as it is in Japan. You only have to look outside the gaming culture to see this pursuit of excellence at work in all of Japan's culture. Its "be the best you can be" in the West, in Japan its "be the best of the best".

Shmupping skill doesn't even come into it as much, when people are taught to push for the top at everything they do.

On the other hand, if you say that everyone can get a WR "doing the right things" well, we have another conjecture, but based on nothing. And it's a way to oversemplify the problem.

DEL with Toaplan counterstops that are WR status scores? Rob with probably a Mars Matrix counter stop? I'd say they are "doing the right things". Like developing good strategy, the right mentality and good practice habits.

I can say: why? Where's the edge between "more physical sports" and videogames? You're always using your body, not only your mind. A thing like chess can be an example of "mental strength only", but not a shmup, in my opinion. In chess you don't need practice to move your stuff, in shmups your hands need to be heavily prepared!

Chess is just as intensive a mental game as a shmup. Take Kasparov and the other top-grandmaster level players as an example. In the space of a few minutes they can quickly spot candidate moves, calculate all necessary variations and develop a good strategy. I'm no grandmaster, but in my youth I used to be able to calculate at top-level speeds (and was quite competitive too). And I believe that like chess, you can develop the right thinking to conquer problems in shootemups.

By the way, two good books for developing good chess mentality: Imagination in Chess by Paata Gaprindashvili, and The Art of Logical Thinking by Neil McDonald. Two books that teach you to think creatively, spot the problems and develop a strategy, concepts that I advocate in the development of shootemup strategy, believe it or not.

[LUNardei]

Taking the Japanese players and your "we all have the same tools" comment as an example [...]

Same tools at different levels. The cultural thing was already discussed, I think. Of course it's another key point, but not the only. Not the only, that's my/our point.

DEL with Toaplan counterstops that are WR status scores? Rob with probably a Mars Matrix counter stop?

Ask DEL
Anyway: A) there are different kind of games B) what if the score was not stopped in those games? Would they be the WR owners anyway?

Chess is just as intensive a mental game as a shmup. Take Kasparov and the other top-grandmaster level players as an example. In the space of a few minutes they can quickly spot candidate moves, calculate all necessary variations and develop a good strategy. I'm no grandmaster, but in my youth I used to be able to caluculate at top-level speeds (and was quite competitive too). And I believe that like chess, you can develop the right thinking to conquer problems in shootemups.

Ok but in chess you need only to think well. The rest is easy, even a children can move the, ehm, stuff. In shmups you need to think and then REALIZE that. I can think about "How to beat Hibachi", but sorry, at the moment I cannot do that... And I'm not implying that shmups are more difficult than chess, just to clarify.

By the way, two good books for developing good chess mentality: Imagination in Chess by Paata Gaprindashvili, and The Art of Logical Thinking by Neil McDonald. Two books that teach you to think creatively, spot the problems and develop a strategy, concepts that I advocate in the development of shootemup strategy, believe it or not.

Very interesting stuff ^___^
Btw Icarus: this is only an evil-plan. Our goal is to force you to stay on the forum instead of playing DB

[Rob]

Its "be the best you can be" in the West, in Japan its "be the best of the best".

Which is why they head west for university.

[Icarus]

Same tools at different levels. The cultural thing was already discussed, I think. Of course it's another key point, but not the only. Not the only, that's my/our point.

It is the only key point. That is my point.
Everything else is personal training.

Anyway: A) there are different kind of games B) what if the score was not stopped in those games? Would they be the WR owners anyway?

How are they different games?

And a counter-stop is no mean feat, especially with those games. Even if they weren't C-stops, they'd still be records that eclipse anything any other player on this forum would be able to do, save the players that are truly dedicated to mastery of their playing arts. And are interested enough to try. ^_-

I can think about "How to beat Hibachi", but sorry, at the moment I cannot do that...

So what are you waiting for? Get off this damn forum and start practicing!

Btw Icarus: this is only an evil-plan. Our goal is to force you to stay on the forum instead of playing DB

Its not working very well then. Its 7.45pm here, and you're only distracting me from my coursework. I get down to business at midnight, mwhahahaha.

[Frederik]

Its "be the best you can be" in the West, in Japan its "be the best of the best".

Yeah, comparing yourself with the best is mostly likely to be discouraging. There is always someone better than you (or was or will be). I would go nuts to life in an environment that puts me under so much pressure.

[Frederik]

Its "be the best you can be" in the West, in Japan its "be the best of the best".

Which is why they head west for university.

Can you give some more info on that? I never thought of that to be honest.

[LUNardei]

Ok, your point is good enough. At least believing in that you force yourself to do the best you can, and that's damn good. I'll do the same with myself but I still think that they're on another league, and I like to discuss any particular about that, even if incredibly anal. That's it

How are they different games?

Take Ikaruga and DDP DOJ. Do you see any difference? If you see the western ikaruga normal scores, you can think that west is going to reach east! But look at DOJ scores... You know, different kind of shmups, simply. Different kind of problems to solve. In DOJ you have that second loop to beat to reach japanese-like scores. And you know what I'm talking about, it's not just survival. In Ikaruga you have 5 stages of medium difficulty and you can see every point you can get. It's a different world.

And a counter-stop is no mean feat, especially with those games. Even if they weren't C-stops, they'd still be records that eclipse anything any other player on this forum would be able to do, save the players that are truly dedicated to mastery of their playing arts. And are interested enough to try. ^_-

Never said that great scores are impossible for a western guy. And I'd like to see more and more of that, just like you!

So what are you waiting for? Get off this damn forum and start practicing!

LOL, actually I don't like Hibachi. And I already have a date with the true Aki but... I'm too busy atm, and I'm playing less and without the usual fury

Its not working very well then. Its 7.45pm here, and you're only distracting me from my coursework. I get down to business at midnight, mwhahahaha.

Damn you, but as Donpachi says... WE WILL TRY HARD

[DEL]

It is very much about level of dedication to a game. Ex_Mosquito took a year to Master Strikers 1945 II, Mills took a year to Master 1945 I.
The only constant with all such feats by Western players is the fact that they liked the particular game enough to stomach the work towards the end of the 2nd loops or Counter Stops.

LUNardei wrote;

Ask DEL
Anyway: A) there are different kind of games B) what if the score was not stopped in those games? Would they be the WR owners anyway?

A) Yes they are different in terms of 'fast bullet' VS 'Manic Bullet'.
B) If the score was not stopped, I would have gone on until I fell asleep.
- How many loops is enough for you?
HeHe, I might have to give you the same challenge of 1 crediting 7 loops+ of Truxton and Fire Shark. The bullet speed on loops 3 onwards would give you trouble. -- Once achieved, please re-post

I was 19 then, with youth and freshness. Manics didn't exist. Still....match these counter stops before you judge.

-----------------------------------------------------

Laos's inate ability must be Spectacular


I remain curious about inate ability.

I do believe there are different ability levels or 'top-ends' achievable by different people.

I'll leave the last words with Nemo;

Also, it's not unconceivable that an "unskilled player" could achieve a WR in like 5 years of playing, but the "skilled" player could achieve the same result in mere months, that's the point of innate ability.

[LUNardei]

Don't get me wrong DEL, I really know what those achievements means and I deeply respect those (and I can't see mysef get similar scores too)
The point was: what if MM had a second loop and no score limitation (in the arcade version)? Would Rob be one of the best anymore? A japanese mad guy would be the number one, I think. If they can gain a point more than you they get it, always. That's why this argument is so fascinating

[Rob]

Ex_Mosquito took a year to Master Strikers 1945 II, Mills took a year to Master 1945 I.

How consistently, daily or weekly?

The point was: what if MM had a second loop and no score limitation (in the arcade version)? Would Rob be one of the best anymore? A japanese mad guy would be the number one, I think.

Definitely. The game as it is, I'd be in the 50-70% range. In my best game I had less than 2/3rds of my own best stage exp. It's a pretty low stop. I think it can be essentially tripled. My game is a work in progress. I still plan to go at it.

I wonder how Japanese players have done with the DC port at home. There has to be a few fans playing for fun, with no Arcadia to keep track of it. I'm sure it killed off interest in the arcade.

[Icarus]

The point was: what if MM had a second loop and no score limitation (in the arcade version)?

You're speaking hypothetically. The point is that a Western player has managed to achieve 100% of score on a game's default settings and gameplay design. Thats still a great achievement, saying "what if...?" does nothing but devalue that achievement.

If they can gain a point more than you they get it, always. That's why this argument is so fascinating Smile

Thats because they go through a constant process of tweaking, strategy building and repetition, until the complete run is commited to memory and recalled without thinking via muscle memory, to pixel precision.

Repetition and planning. Thats all it is. No magic involved.

[BR1]

I just wanna focus on the Skill's Question:

And what are these "shooter skills" that no one has seemed to have mentioned yet?

Two skill's are necessary to play shooters: memory and dodging.
Memory to learn the rigth path to follow to maximize the score and dodging skills not to be killed following that path.
As a matter of fact memory is the most important in easy games and in the first levels of hard games: try after try you can memorize exactly every bullet's pattern and be able to dodge them even without great dodging ability.
On the other hand in the last stages the number and the speed of bullets is so high you simply cannot learn them by heart: you must have quick reflexes and the capability to use the tool stick properly.

Every human being (with no mental or nervous desease, of course) has the memory to learn every single aspect of a game (of course playing even for years).

On the other hand NOT every man has the dodging ability to achieve a modern shooter's WR. And I think we must not be "afraid" to admit that even in shmups we aren't equally talented. I mean: it happens in every human discipline!
Just talk about reflexes with a neurology: as he'll tell you that they can be improved by practice so he'll tell you that not every human being has the same limit in reaction time. Some are just better than others.
And the same for the capability to use tools: everybody can improve but we all have different limits.
Modern shooters WRs rise the limit to extremely high levels, and not everybody will ever be able to achieve those results.
Ask DEL about Insanity Mushihime's DVD: together we've seen TGA-RET dodging patterns we couldn't even imagine that could be dodged.
Can I improve a lot playing for years Mushi ultra? Yes, for sure!
Can I 1 life True Aki? Not in this life, my friend!

[BR1]

Repetition and planning. Thats all it is. No magic involved.

NO magic: I completely agree with you!

Repetition and planning. Thats all it is.

Now I cannot agree with you!
It's not all: it's simply impossible to learn and repeat by heart a pixel perfect run. Just like it's impossible to score 50 times in a row from midfield on a basket court. It's just over human limits.
Bullets' number and speed is so high that Improvisation and dodging capabilities are always required.

[Icarus]

I agree on those points. However, there are ways of working around your own limitations. Players with slightly slower reaction times could play games that are less reflex-based and more pattern and memory-based, which works around the slower reaction time and helps to improve another important area of play.

The only thing that amazes me is the negativity that goes around. I see a lot of comments in score threads I post in (and many more I haven't posted in) along the lines of "I'll put up a score, but its nothing like yours", or "I'll never reach that score, ever". And I've always said in reply: "go for it, you never know unless you try".

Now I cannot agree with you!
It's not all: it's simply impossible to learn and repeat by heart a pixel perfect run. Just like it's impossible to score 50 times in a row from midfield on a basket court. It's just over human limits.
Bullets' number and speed is so high that Improvisation and dodging capabilities are always required.

Rubbish. There are far more variables in effect when playing basketball - fatigue, upper and lower body strength, positioning, technique and so on. The only thing that repetition in a shootemup provides is the ability to concentrate on something else while you are subconsciously recalling a pattern. You can't repeat a pattern to the millisecond, but then again, you don't have to. Recall the general plan, and alter to fit the situation.

[Twiddle]

Its "be the best you can be" in the West, in Japan its "be the best of the best".

Which is why they head west for university.

Can you give some more info on that? I never thought of that to be honest.

Japanese universities are fucking terrible and poorly prepare students for their profession, mainly by preparing students for a set of standardized tests that portray few real-world applications. It's why you see Japanese professors who are supposed to be highly educated trying to publish studies in favor of anti-Semitism (and the hilarious part is that they're being taken seriously).

Most Japanese who actually care about their studies go to European or American universities where the bars are set noticably higher.

[BulletMagnet]

Most Japanese who actually care about their studies go to European or American universities where the bars are set noticably higher.

I find that interesting in light of the fact that around here we're always hearing about how Japan's (and just about everyplace else's, really) schools are leagues better than ours...though I guess there's probably a distinction to be drawn between "regular" school and college.

[Twiddle]

American education K-12 is a joke due to the overreliance on standardized tests and insufficient facilities to control unruly students. The illusion of college being optional serves as a filter for the latter category.

Japanese education, before college, is almost totalitarian (not that that's a bad thing considering kids, but...) and the pressure the parents and peers put on the kids is one of the main causes of Japan's high suicide rate.

Japan has another whole world of social problems that we'd be deathly afraid to see (like the fact that in-family child abuse goes largely unprosecuted) but those are pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

[LUNardei]

Thats all it is. No magic involved.

Once again: I've never talked about magic. Never.
Yes, some of us can get the 100% score of some games. A very small amount of games. Is this a proof that everyone is capable of getting a WR? Nahh. First of all I want to see someone get 2 billion at DOJ (BR1? Yum ^__^), then I can start thinking that we are getting closer to the japanese.
You're speacking hypothetically just like me: your theory seems not supported by facts like mine (given the fact that counter stops are AMAZING stuff).

About the negativity around: you're right, but who really cares? You cannot force people to believe in themself, you can only show the way

And again: I still can't understand where precisely is the edge between an activity of "only brain" and an activity of "brain+body'.
Don't you feel fatigue when playing shmups for more than a hour?

[LUNardei]

I wonder how Japanese players have done with the DC port at home. There has to be a few fans playing for fun, with no Arcadia to keep track of it. I'm sure it killed off interest in the arcade.

When they get a counter stop, the interest in the game is automatically killed. Too bad we can't keep track of the extra arcade (like MM on DC) games...