What school did these guys go to?

[Acid King]

This is true to some extent, although flying isn't that expensive anymore. Seriously, if you wait around, you canget tickets to Europe for $700 or so... It used to be well over $1000 w/ a higher valued dollars.

True, it's gotten cheaper but that's just the flight and is just one part of the travel cost.

But, even if you don't go abroad, I think each person owes it to themselves (and the rest of the world) to know what the fuck is going on in other countries...especially the one that is the self-appointed policeman. If we're going to go invading and poking our nose all over the place, the citizens need to be at least semi-aware of what's going on in said place.

True enough. The reason we have such shitty government (everywhere, not just in the states) is because people by and large don't pay attention and have selective hearing. The real problem with democracy is the people.

[neorichieb1971]

That youtube for 20/20 stupid in America is a real eye opener. Its not the monopoly thats the problem, its the attitude.

Lets look at some major differences between American and English schools.

America has no uniforms, they have self expression.
England has uniforms, we are forced to be the same.

Americans get tons of time off, especially summer for 3 months
England gets 6 weeks for summer.

Americans traditionally get rides to school.
English traditionally walk to school (this has changed somewhat)

Americans don't advance if they don't succeed.
English advance a year no matter what.

Americans leave at 18 I think, can drive to school.
English leave at 16 unless they stay on (their choice)

Americans have the choice to wait tables when they leave.
English people wouldn't go into the restaurant business (for tips).

In my day of learning (70's and 80's) we had the cain.
Almost everywhere in the world now, teachers can't touch you.


None of those are important except the last one. Since our children know they cannot be touched, they swear, they act like hooligans, they bring weapons to school. Where was the discipline in that video? Teachers don't get disciplined, kids don't get disciplined. Discipline is necessary to learn anywhere! You have to carry the message across that if you do not succeed at school, you never will succeed unless you have a God given talent.



As for the argument on Americans not leaving the States.

Here is another fact -

American passports are quite expensive. A UK passport costs about £30 I think. A USA passport costs in excess of $250 I think once you count all the admin charges. Thats quite a bit for something you might use once or twice in the 10 year tenure before it expires.

Any American who has not been abroad is not self teaching himself about the world. It don't matter if you go to Japan, England, Poland, Germany. Just seeing a contrast, seeing the people at ground level eye to eye.. Its so "in your face" and you take that with for the rest of your days. Believe me, you will feel like every day you lived before was almost in blindness and every after is living with your eyes open.

My time in the States was absolutely fucking brilliant. I didn't meet any stupid people, I met a few naive "know it alls" and guess what? They were the ones that had redneck status written all over them. I met a mechanic in Evansville, IN that claimed he had never been out of the State. KY was across the river not even 1 mile away

If the schooling system in America does not change, the next generation will be run by a few sheppards and the rest will be sheep.

[Never_Scurred]

I don't really care about what goes on anywhere else in the world. I don't make enough money to care outside of reading the newspaper and watching CNN or live the type of lifestyle that would permit me to up and leave the US just because 'our system is fucked". I find it funny that the ones who roar the loudest on this issue come from a different type of social structure-White, upper middle class, college degreed, parents who can afford to subsidize their living, in other words, the ones who seem to be already benefitting the most. This seems to be that part that people like Neo always leave out.

And besides, why would I want to move? For a shitty administration, i'm doing pretty good considering that i'm still pretty much on the bottom end of the socioeconomic ladder. I'm in college, work fulltime, can put food in my mouth and clothes on my back, I got health insurance and I have a fucking laptop and DSL.

I'll start caring about Darfur and Iraq and all that other mess when I finish my degree and gain enough disposable income to think liberal.

Until then, passing precalc and gen. chemistry with A's > whats going on in whateverikstan at the moment.

[Acid King]

Its the old 'borders of America = the borders of the World' thing again.

Yes, let's not let reality get in the way of idealism.

Any American who has not been abroad is not self teaching himself about the world.

I collectively apologize for all the ignorant Americans that don't have the spare few thousand dollars or the time to go abroad. For that, I am truly, deeply sorry.

[DEL]

Never_Scurred wrote;

I find it funny that the ones who roar the loudest on this issue come from a different type of social structure-White, upper middle class, college degreed, parents who can afford to subsidize their living, in other words, the ones who seem to be already benefitting the most.

You've got a point there.
Plus I do realize that travelling abroad from America takes a fair amount of ca$h.

Still, travelling to other Countries is something that people should strive to do, even if it is a mission to build up the ca$h.

[The n00b]

Actually I would argue for Americans actually leaving their home state before traveling abroad. Most Euros don't know this but an American in New York is as different from an American in Texas as a German is from a Frenchman.

I think the USA experiences so much ethnic, racial, and political upheaval because so many people stay in their little home state and consider themselves the only "true Americans." Then once they leave the state, they feel free to act like assholes. This is called having a "vacation." When they go back to their home state, they prattle on endlessly about how much better it is "over here" then "over there."

Even a congressman from Colorado named Tancredo was caught doing this. WTF America? You really want these people getting passports?

[neorichieb1971]

Wow...

Its nothing to do with money, just the correct mindset. Fair enough if you don't have a spare $2k in the bank. But what if you had millions of $?

It does seem strange that the ones that are complaining are trapped by the very geography and system of their own country. And I know how that feels living in St Louis. It was 4 hours to Kansas, 5 hours to Louisville and a shitload more to get anywhere else.

[popawell]

It is funny when talking with dumb people and they are speak incorrect information and honestly think they are correct when true facts are right around the corner.

HAHA! Reminds me of this one time on the internet (yesterday) when you said that your father was forced into early retirement because Americans think Japanese cars are better than American ones!

Well they are. I always bust a gut laughing when some UAW shill tries to get me to buy a car of lower quality because "some welder needs six figures a year to get by." So I have to bite the bullet and buy a crappy car for that? Bullcrap I say! BULLCRAP.

Right now UAW are trying to get established at the local Toyota plant. I, for one, hope they don't succeed and are replaced with a union who cares about product quality as much as securing ultra high salaries.

Its not the workers fault for the low quality, its the cheap knock-off parts the factories buy from outsourced work (China, Mexico, etc.). The parts may be in the tolerance requirements, but the material is sub standard.

Its sad, we own a 5 year old car (appx 70,000 miles) that already had to have a new transmission and rack and pinion set (this should never have to be replaced! )

[neorichieb1971]

Cars in America are well cheap. For £9k or $18k you can get a 4 cyl with all the options. Try that over here and you can double that figure . Makes me wonder how they do it because if you break just the wing mirror of your vehicle (assuming its electric) thats about $400 just for that

I didn't have anything go wrong with my Chevy Cobalt and got that up to 30k miles. I was not inspired by the fact that almost every single car on the side of the road broken down was American though .

[The n00b]

HAHA! Reminds me of this one time on the internet (yesterday) when you said that your father was forced into early retirement because Americans think Japanese cars are better than American ones!

Well they are. I always bust a gut laughing when some UAW shill tries to get me to buy a car of lower quality because "some welder needs six figures a year to get by." So I have to bite the bullet and buy a crappy car for that? Bullcrap I say! BULLCRAP.

Right now UAW are trying to get established at the local Toyota plant. I, for one, hope they don't succeed and are replaced with a union who cares about product quality as much as securing ultra high salaries.

Its not the workers fault for the low quality, its the cheap knock-off parts the factories buy from outsourced work (China, Mexico, etc.). The parts may be in the tolerance requirements, but the material is sub standard.

Its sad, we own a 5 year old car (appx 70,000 miles) that already had to have a new transmission and rack and pinion set (this should never have to be replaced! )

Bullcrap. You think Toyota and Honda don't deal with the same knockoff parts? Or is UAW putting so much pressure on the Big Three that they are losing tons of money on labor and can't afford high quality parts?

All I know is that toyota and honda have a reputation for high quality that they try to keep. It's something that I don't see going on at UAW shops or even mazda, for that matter.

[Sonic R]

Well they are. I always bust a gut laughing when some UAW shill tries to get me to buy a car of lower quality because "some welder needs six figures a year to get by." So I have to bite the bullet and buy a crappy car for that? Bullcrap I say! BULLCRAP.

Right now UAW are trying to get established at the local Toyota plant. I, for one, hope they don't succeed and are replaced with a union who cares about product quality as much as securing ultra high salaries.

Its not the workers fault for the low quality, its the cheap knock-off parts the factories buy from outsourced work (China, Mexico, etc.). The parts may be in the tolerance requirements, but the material is sub standard.

Its sad, we own a 5 year old car (appx 70,000 miles) that already had to have a new transmission and rack and pinion set (this should never have to be replaced! )

Bullcrap. You think Toyota and Honda don't deal with the same knockoff parts? Or is UAW putting so much pressure on the Big Three that they are losing tons of money on labor and can't afford high quality parts?

All I know is that toyota and honda have a reputation for high quality that they try to keep. It's something that I don't see going on at UAW shops or even mazda, for that matter.

I guess I just do a shit job then, thanks mate. I should just quit. I go to work and I work with pride but what the fuck for? This is what I get for working in the automotive industry? I bust my ass for 10 years and I guess I just make shit vehicles?

[eight]

I'd say it's not yours but the part manufacturer's fault. Plus the greed of the American car makers who buy extremely cheap and low quality parts instead of going for higher quality (like Honda etc) just to assure high profit.

[The n00b]

I'd say it's not yours but the part manufacturer's fault. Plus the greed of the American car makers who buy extremely cheap and low quality parts instead of going for higher quality (like Honda etc) just to assure high profit.

I don't think you know how much power UAW has gained at the expense of American car makers. They've gotten so cozy together that we can't say that this is all some rich CEO's fault. Not when said CEO shares so much power. So would we go so easy on Ford's management if some of them were posting on this board?

Maybe I'm coming off as an ass but this situation is extremely personal to me. The Toyota plant will account for a big part of my town's economy and UAW seems to consider it greener pastures. This is disconcerting because it doesn't look like UAW has changed its ways at all. What happens if the plants close down? Will they blame it on management again?

[neorichieb1971]

Noob,

So whats your solution then? If better quality parts are necessary to make the cars better, where does the funding for that come from? If your assuming people will take salary cuts, thats not going to happen.

Materials have nothing to do with the workers, a % of cars must go through QC right?

Lets assume the world was different and only 1 model of car existed. It is the most reliable car ever built.. Gets 1million miles without maintenance.. Would that make people happy? yeah thought so, your damn right it wouldn't.

Just fly the American flag outside a Chevy or Ford dealership and you've pretty much got 35% of the country in the palm of your hands by default. In England, we make Mini's, Jaguars, Lotus's, TVR's and Aston Martins.. None of them are considered reliable cars and they are all expensive for what they are. But people still buy them. Until that changes, the reputation will stay the same.

[neorichieb1971]

Just to even the score, it seems the Americans have bounced back.


The British are ALSO not stupid...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mkwB9a ... re=related


I don't think its quite as bad as the American one and I must admit the standard of schooling over here is slipping somewhat.


Anyway the score is 1-1...