New gen not powerfull enough article

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:43 am

This thread is the dorkiest place in the universe...

You'll blend right in don't worry

D · Post by D » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:59 am

In this thread alot of people talk past each other. Like they are right and the other person is wrong. Most people said things that make sense, but at the same time try to prove somebody else wrong.
Most of you are right.
But saying something is right and claiming your opponent in this discussion is wrong is a bit silly.
I see this a lot. Poeple having arguments, when they are both right.
But as is the case here, try to put words in somebody else's mouth.
"So, what you are saying.......................... That is just not right"
Read the article, read the responses and hopefully everyone will see what I'm talking 'bout.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:37 am

I think your a bit off the mark there. Its not so much thats the way you like it. The way you would like it in reality is to see a "real life" on your screen. If "resolution" was a standard 1000 lines and never went up nor down graphics would still have progressed and nobody would care about resolution.

So let me ask this! If a TV system came out next month that supported 2160P or 4000P or whatever, would you just keep on wanting movies and games and be PREPARED to buy them all over again to get the most of that equipment? Would you not be better off NOT buying your favorite movie or game and just spend it elsewhere?

Ummm, I needed to buy a TV so I saw no reason not to get the best HD I could afford and enjoy the benefits it gives. If a higher res tv came along, and they have, sure I'd want it but I doubt I could afford it right now. I haven't had to rebuy any of my lower res games now, so I doubt I would then? They look great on my TV via an XRGB. Besides my 360 upscales some of my xbox games now and my PS3 upconverts to progressive on older titles. Movies I would only rebuy if I REALLY liked em, but I would buy the higher res ones from then on after i had a player.

Bottom line I got an awsome deal on a nice SONY CRT HDTV and really enjoy the benefits it offers. Especially HD resolutions when available.

Now i just need to figure out how to mod my laser disc player to give me RGB.... I want to do this out of novelty more than anything else. Progressive scan laser discs via my XRGB... would be to funny.

D · Post by D » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:31 am

Strider77 wrote:I got an awsome deal on a nice SONY CRT HDTV and really enjoy the benefits it offers. Especially HD resolutions when available.

What model?
link?
res. spec? 720p?
size? screen size. How deep is it?
inputs?
really curious

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:12 pm

http://www.shopping.com/xPF-Sony-FD-Tri ... google.com

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=446406

Here are the 30" 955 features and specifications, from Sony's website:

• Full HDTV (built-in ATSC tuner for over-the-air HD reception)

• DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-function Circuitry analyzes a 480i NTSC image and creates a digital bit mapped pattern in real time. The original NTSC signal is mapped in real time, replaced with an HD representative, and then discarded. Because DRC™ processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4X the density of the original signal. Resolution is increased both vertically and horizontally.

• Hi-Scan 1080i™ Display accepts the full 1080 interlaced scanning lines (1080i) or 720 progressive scan (720p) from an external HDTV receiver or a compatible high definition digital satellite receiver. It also accepts 480 progressive (480p) scanning lines from compatible DVD video sources.

• SuperFine Pitch CRT provides better image detail with high definition sources. The Aperture Grill was improved by making the vertical slits a finer pitch that increases the number of slits by up to 65%(16 x 9 base). Also improved were the High Precision Deflection Yoke, Fine Focus Electron Gun and the inclusion of higher intensity Luminescent Phosphors. The result is a more detailed image for both moving and still images, higher resolution picture quality, and better edge detail.

• HD Detailer™ Wideband Video Amp provides greater detail on finer images, delivering the best possible image from high bandwidth sources.

• ClearEdge VM™ (Wideband Velocity Modulation Scanning) allows you to select levels to create better separation between an object and its background for clearer edges, greater picture depth and improved overall picture quality.

• ATSC Integrated Tuner allows the reception of local, off-air digital broadcasts providing the viewing of free, true high-definition network programming without the addition of a set top box or a monthly fee.

• Digital Cable Ready with CableCARD™ Slot A set of hardware specifications that are defined to include a removable security module, which separates the cable operator's proprietary conditional access system from the retail digital cable device, to enable portability of the host to other cable networks.

• HDMI Interface (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) – HDMI is the first industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface. HDMI provides an interface between any audio/video source, such as a set-top box, DVD player, and A/V receiver and an audio and/or video monitor, such as a digital television (DTV).

• HDCP Interface (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) was developed to protect digital entertainment content across a DVI interface. It also serves as the security system for HDMI.

• CineMotion™ Reverse 3-2 Pulldown improves the display of video programs originally shot on 24 frames per second film preserving the integrity of the original film frames for more fluid motion and more fine detail.

• Memory Stick® Media Enhanced Playback (JPEG,MPEG1,MP3)

Specifications • Dimensions (WxHxD): 35 3/8" x 23 3/4" x 22 1/4" (898 x 604 x 564.5mm)
Weight: 154 lbs. (69.8kg)
Power Requirements: AC 120V 60Hz

• Inputs and Outputs:
Component Video Input (Y/PB/PR): 2 Rear
Composite Input: 1 Front/3 Rear
S-Video Input: (With Detection): 1 Front/2 Rear
Control S: 1 Rear
HDMI: 1 rear

• Tuner:
8 VSB
ATSC, NTSC
Clear QAM
Digital Cable

• Audio:
TruSurround® SRS® Audio (7.5W x 2 With 15W Sub)
Steady Sound® Automatic Volume Control With BBE® Audio Effect
Auto Mute Tuner
Auto SAP
Audio Output (Variable/Fixed)

• Video:
Dynamic Focus™ Circuitry
Dynamic Picture™ Circuitry
Trinitone® Color Temperature
ClearEdge VM™ (Wideband Velocity Modulation Scanning)
Vertical Aperture Compensation
Vertical Center Adjustment
3D Digital Comb Filter
Wide Modes: (Normal/Full/Zoom/Wide Zoom)
Auto Pedestal Clamp
Auto White Balance
High Voltage Regulator
HD Detailer™ Wideband Video Amplifier
NTSC Color System
ID1 Detection
Magnetic Quadruple Pole
Tilt Correction
Vertical Correction
Vertical Size Adjustment

• Convenience:
Auto Channel Program
Caption Vision (CC)
Channel Fix
Channel Skip/Add
Video Label
V Chip Parental Control
Speed Surf™ Channel Selection
Sleep Timer Function
Tilt Correction
Program Palette™ (Vivid/Movie/Standard/Sports) presets
On Screen Display (English/Spanish/French)
Channel Jump
Front Button Menu Control
Favorite Channel
Energy Star® Compliant
Clock/Timer Two Event
Antenna Level for DTV
PSIP Program Information
DTV Auto Add

Franz the Stampede · Post by **Franz the Stampede** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:18 pm

Strider77 wrote:Bottom line I got an awsome deal on a nice SONY CRT HDTV and really enjoy the benefits it offers. Especially HD resolutions when available.

That's obviously the best thign in the word but of course everybody is quite about it because otherwise they couldn't sell those magnificent, cool looking and above all well performing LCD and plasma tellies.

Strider77, correct me if I'm wrong but your Sony telly does the following:
- displays anything between 480p and 1080i
- does it without rescaling to a native resolution
- doesn't have lag
- has better colours than most LCD tvs

Now, the only bad thing, for would would be my needs, is that this CRT marvel doesn't have a VGA input to plug my DC in. Is there something similar (I mean, a CRT HDTV that is at least 28 inches) that has both YPbPr and VGa inputs?

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:38 pm

the VGA was a problem but I solved that with a transoder and I honestly believe it looks as good as if it had a an actual VGA input. i wanted it for my DC also and then shortly afterwards for an xrgb.

crt's don't really have a naitive resolution as they don't have a set pixel count. at least this is whats been told to me by alot of folks.

Other types of displays, such as CRTs, create pixels independently of the physical structure of their screens and do not have a native resolution. As a result, a CRT's image quality is generally the same across a range of resolutions.

as far as lag goes ect this tv did a MUCH better job than a samsung i had before. through component i'd say it's display was exceptable even if it was not progessive. s-video and composite are ugly though, to me at least. i never noticed much lag really... i played alot of shooters and never really fealt like i was being hit unfairly. there could i suppose and i wasn't noticing? this set is suppose to be very good about that though.

still i got an xrgb2+ and with that all my older interlaced signals look FANTASTIC on it. saturn games look great, astal is a great game to show off the saturn via an xrgb2+ on that set.

being a crt, yes it most deffinately has better colors than a LCD. LCD is the worst out of plasma, crt, and LCD, especially for gaming. now if you have a LCD don't get all riled up, I have been impressed by LCD and it has it's advatages. however it's true that it has the worst color representation out of the 3 and is generally regarded not the best choice for gaming. ESPECIALLY when it's an LCD tv vs LCD monitor.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:49 pm

CRT's still have pixels I believe, they are much smaller than flat panels though. In such a scenario I believe scaling is not required. CRTS are not even digital in the very last stage of displaying the image. If you take an arcade monitor for example, you have pots to adjust and no matter how big the image is it never looks scaled.

On the XRGB2 scanline thing, I used mine with my friends TV and when I put scanlines "on" the TV comphensated by line doubling. Isn't that biggest kick in the teeth ever?

Franz the Stampede · Post by **Franz the Stampede** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:25 pm

Strider77, thanks for confirming what I thought which, in a nutshell, is that LCD and plasma are the biggest emperor's clothes ever in consumers electronics.

If I owned the place where I live, I would buy a CRT HDTV in a blinkeye.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:53 am

well I wouldn't say that for plasma, it depends on your personal prefrence also. what is most important to you. i would take an awsome plasma that could display true 1080p and deal with some slight color or dark levels being not pefect. i can not afford that... lol.

but for the price i stand behind crt and would take crt over lcd anyday especially for gaming.

CRT's still have pixels I believe, they are much smaller than flat panels though. In such a scenario I believe scaling is not required. CRTS are not even digital in the very last stage of displaying the image.

yes they have pixels but not SET pixels and that's do to them being analouge that way.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:55 am

I had a 36" XBR450 a few years ago and it took 3 average people to lift. Geometry on a CRT is always a worry as well as I found out.

I personally don't mind LCD or its peers for modern gaming, but for oldschool gaming you just need that old CRT or in the case of Strider, a new CRT.

ED-057 · Post by **ED-057** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:07 am

Strider77 wrote:yes they have pixels but not SET pixels and that's do to them being analouge that way.

The pixels are there, in fact on an old standard def. TV of decent size one can easily see the little RGB triads when looking close (and you'll probably count about 500 across, not the 600-700 you might expect). I guess the difference is that if the beam only hits half of a pixel, then only that area lights up rather than the whole thing (hence scanlines).

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:57 am

The pixels are there, in fact on an old standard def. TV of decent size one can easily see the little RGB triads when looking close.

well those phospherous dots you see are pixels... but an electron beam is causeing those to glow vs each one having its own personal connection. it's still analogue.....

it's hard for me to put into words but in a way it's still just a projector. those phospherous dots are pixels and dictate what the screens resolution is, but there is really no native res b/c it's not like you have an electron gun for each pixel. so like I was saying those pixels aren't SET like an LCD or plasma. thats why CRTs can have bluming or geometry issures and why LCDs and plasma can be so thin.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:00 pm

On the XRGB2 scanline thing, I used mine with my friends TV and when I put scanlines "on" the TV comphensated by line doubling. Isn't that biggest kick in the teeth ever?

you mean u got no scanlines on the TV? that's weird b/c I most definately can have my scanlines back via my xrgb. what kind of tv was that and how was it hooked up?

Jeffrey · Post by **Jeffrey** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:03 pm

Strider - How well does your HD CRT display older console games? I assume you still need the XRGB thingy to convert the lower res signal to the HD tv. Is this correct?

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:38 pm

I do need the XRGB for anything that I can't get component out of. If it's anything less, to me, it's not an exceptable picture. Now it's not absolutely HORRID but it's not up to par for me.

With the xrgb I was absolutely amazed at what my saturn games looked like. Like I said Astal looked great, the colors are very vivid with no color bleeding or blooming ect. Samurai Showdown 3 shocked me to... I was really happy with my purchase (tv) after getting that xrgb2+, one of my best purchases in awhile.

With my PS3 or PS2 via XRGB games like gradius 5, metal gear 3, ESPgaluda ect look fantastic also.

Franz the Stampede · Post by **Franz the Stampede** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:14 pm

Strider77 wrote:With the xrgb I was absolutely amazed at what my saturn games looked like. Like I said Astal looked great, the colors are very vivid with no color bleeding or blooming ect. Samurai Showdown 3 shocked me to... I was really happy with my purchase (tv) after getting that xrgb2+, one of my best purchases in awhile.

With my PS3 or PS2 via XRGB games like gradius 5, metal gear 3, ESPgaluda ect look fantastic also.

Do you have any high resolution saturn games (i.e. VF2, Last Bronx, Dead or Alive)? Those are 480i, right? If used with an XRGB, can you get 480p? How does it look like?

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:39 pm

Anyone here still actually believe this crap article anymore? Or did MGS4 look to much like a PS2 game for you?

The comparisons of DOA4 to DVD video still cracks me up.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:25 pm

The article is very true in everything it says.

MGS4 vs MGS the movie = No contest. Movie looks better on 15 year old TV compared to MGS4 on the best TV EVER.

Will Street fighter HD play better than SF2? It will look better. Its sole existence is because you bought that TV in the first place. Thats the way it goes I suppose.

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:59 pm

Strider77 wrote:Anyone here still actually believe this crap article anymore? Or did MGS4 look to much like a PS2 game for you?

The comparisons of DOA4 to DVD video still cracks me up.

The article has merit. Making the new consoles many times more powerful but then forcing them to display many times more pixels negates a lot of that extra power. However, they still have enough power to look better than previous generation games at any resolution.

I'd say the situation benefits the Wii more than it hurts PS3/360. The fact that the Wii doesn't go beyond 480p means any hardware improvement beyond GameCube capabilities can be used on graphical detail instead of increased resolution. That's why games like MP3 Corruption and Mario Galaxy can look good despite the lower screen resolution.

Grinning Cat · Post by **Grinning Cat** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:29 pm

MR_Soren wrote:The article has merit.

I'd agree, though at the same time, there are no real revelations in the article. Much like the majority of icycalm's musings/ramblings, it's hard to shake the feeling that the article thinks it's a good deal cleverer than it actually is...

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:31 pm

silly.....

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:33 pm

I think it's possibly useful to people who have less knowledge about technology. I learned nothing from it, but I thought it was enjoyable to read.

brokenhalo · Post by **brokenhalo** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:26 pm

i didn't realize how old this thread was until i hit the second page. damn good read and good opinions from both sides of the fence.

weather the technology shifted in the direction of higher resolution or more effects, we would get to the other one down the road. it's a fact that stuff can be made to look better with more processing effects, it's also fact that stuff can be made to look better at higher resolutions. this gen was maybe concentrated more on the jump in resolution. does that mean that new and better ways of creating effects haven't come about? graphics are getting better no matter which way you slice it, and if we didn't go the "hd" route now, well, theres only so much texture you can render on a 480i/p screen.

watch a movie mastered for dvd, then watch that same movie mastered for bluray (source permitting) and note how much better it looks. not by adding any effects, but by simply increasing the resolution.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:53 pm

my thing is a game like MGS4 looks good period... so does alot of next gen stuff. this article was written when the 360 was the only thing out and 1st gen software.

MGS4, NG2, and others coming like RE5 look most deffinately a lead ahead, with or without the HD resolution.

But when you are looking at em in HD.... come on.

That's like saying the dreamcast doesn't look better in VGA.

The wii still looks worse when hooked up to a SD tv with a 360 or PS3 beside it in SD also.

besides my thing was..... let's compare real life video recordings to a console? huh?!? VHS looks more real than a console. b/c it's a recording of real people.

you can have all those nice effects, HUGE poly counts, and 60 FPS with HD resolutions now. Like Call of Duty 4 or not.... seeing it on a SD TV is leaps and bounds over last gen, then hook it up to a HDTV... again another leap.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:15 pm

brokenhalo wrote:watch a movie mastered for dvd, then watch that same movie mastered for bluray (source permitting) and note how much better it looks. not by adding any effects, but by simply increasing the resolution.

It's not that simple. If you downscale an HD movie to DVD resolution, the result (especially when stretched to fit) will always look better than the DVD version. Interesting, eh? Try it and see for yourself.

It is, as you said, because movies are mastered specifically for the medium they're going to be distributed on. DVD purposefully sacrifices some detail depth because otherwise the codec wouldn't be able to cope with it. In fact it isn't able either way when the scene is too hard to compress (watch something like the snowfall scene at the end of House of the Flying Daggers, or episode "Program" of The Animatrix to see what I mean). HDDVD/BD are a major technical improvement over the DVD, and resolution covers a very small part of their advantage. A similar situation is with the HD audio, except that is just full of bullshit. The only difference between a CD and the contenders lies in the mastering and the amount of channels; the rest is one hundred percent bluff.

I dunno, I haven't been able to find a place for proper comparison, but, if you just place two [near-]identical TVs with identical screen size (say, 40"), loaded with the same hi-tech game at absolutely the same settings, running at 852x480 on one of them and 1280x720 on the other, will you actually notice that much of a difference? I expect the difference to rise with the screen size, but if you're sitting far from the TVs or the screens aren't too big to notice the boundaries between the lines, how noticeable it will be?