Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[kamiboy]

As an owner of a bevy of SONY PVM's, a 2530 from the early 90's, an L2 and an L5 let me say that I do not particularly care for the 240p scanlines on the L5. I think it is the same for other multisync displays that their scanlines are more pronounced which gives the image a more coarse look.

I would rate my previously owned late 80's early 90's SONY PVM the same as my 2000's L2. They both look fantastic with 240p content.

[Necronopticous]

I've been looking into getting a 20L5 primarily for 480p games. Would you be able to provide some pictures & closeups of your L5 running 240p and 480p games?

[kamiboy]

Sure, I am in the middle of packing for a move so most of my systems are packed away but I still have my wii and Genesis hooked up.

Unfortunately the only camera I have is my iPhone 4 and it does not do the picture justice whenever I use it to take photos of games, but I'll try anyway.

[kamiboy]

So I got lazy and only used the Wii. I have Monster World IV for the virtual console so here are some shots in this order L5@480p, L5@240p and L2@240p:

http://imageshack.com/i/mxpn57j

http://imageshack.com/i/5ivbraj

http://imageshack.com/i/0isgz3j

Of course despite my best efforts these look nothing like they do in person. Scanlines are not that pronounced and everything generally looks better in person but that is always the problem with photos of displays.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

So I got lazy and only used the Wii. I have Monster World IV for the virtual console so here are some shots in this order L5@480p, L5@240p and L2@240p:

http://imageshack.com/i/mxpn57j

http://imageshack.com/i/5ivbraj

http://imageshack.com/i/0isgz3j

Of course despite my best efforts these look nothing like they do in person. Scanlines are not that pronounced and everything generally looks better in person but that is always the problem with photos of displays.

Its hard to tell the difference between the scanlines of the L5 and the L2. But I suppose I'd have to see it in person.....

[RGB]

Guys, I'd appreciate some advice on what I should pay attention to when buying a BVM 20F1.

One of these has surfaced in a reasonable driving distance and I just might buy it if it works good. There's a certain catch to it, though - it comes without the control unit :/

Is there any way to check the monitor without the control unit ? I know I won't be able to access the built-in test patterns. I thought about connecting my supergun with, say, MVS and run some test patterns on the system. The other possibility I see is my laptop->UVC->BVM. Will this suffice ?

[Fudoh]

Unfortunately you cannot even switch the monitor on without the control unit.

[RGB]

Well, that's a bummer Thanks for the info.

[Fudoh]

Don't know what price you're looking at, but I could always send you one along with the proper connection cable (in the sense of borrowing you one....).

[kamiboy]

Its hard to tell the difference between the scanlines of the L5 and the L2. But I suppose I'd have to see it in person.....

Indeed, screenshots of screens have always seemed like a futile endeavour to me as far as conveying the finer points of image quality.

I once hooked up my SNES to both CRTs side by side via loopthrough. That is when I found out how the L5 had thicker spaces between scan lines than the L2. Depending on the person the difference might be subtle or too much. Personally to me it was big enough to never bother playing 15khz games on the L5.

[Necronopticous]

Wow the 480p image is so...complete. I still expected there to be some thin scanlines but it looks completely solid. Very interesting. Do you find the picture to look much better/different than on an HDTV?

[SNES_is_the_Best]

Its hard to tell the difference between the scanlines of the L5 and the L2. But I suppose I'd have to see it in person.....

Indeed, screenshots of screens have always seemed like a futile endeavour to me as far as conveying the finer points of image quality.

I once hooked up my SNES to both CRTs side by side via loopthrough. That is when I found out how the L5 had thicker spaces between scan lines than the L2. Depending on the person the difference might be subtle or too much. Personally to me it was big enough to never bother playing 15khz games on the L5.

That's good enough to convince me to play 15kHz games on a 15kHz monitor. Haha, they were never designed on a 31kHz monitor, so why should I spent the extra to achieve an inaccurate experience?

[Fudoh]

It's not this easy. You can have a pure 15khz display (like the BVM 20F1 I reviewed in the opening post) and still get very strong scanlines.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

It's not this easy. You can have a pure 15khz display (like the BVM 20F1 I reviewed in the opening post) and still get very strong scanlines.

True. Your probably referring to 700 or 800 line monitors that are only 15kHz (M4U is 800 line). But it appears safe to say that I can feel safe in purchasing ether a 20L2 as he mentioned, or perhaps the 20M2U (the L2's predecessor). Too bad that the 500 line PVM's appear so limited in their functions.......

[ExitPlanetDust]

Well, massive fail while trying to make some minor adjustments to the 14N2U tonight.

I got into the service menu ok and pumped up the blue slightly to even out the overly warm picture. Things seemed to be working out in my favor until I tried resetting things so that I could see the difference when trying to lower the red and green instead. I couldn't get things to look right after that.

The set has some kind of auto correction that just throws off my settings. Power the set down and the values for everything change when I turn it on again... Nothing's set as I saved it. Or if I power the set down without saving anything, the values are still different.

Not really sure what to do at this point other than to find someone local with calibration equipment and a controller.

[kamiboy]

Wow the 480p image is so...complete. I still expected there to be some thin scanlines but it looks completely solid. Very interesting. Do you find the picture to look much better/different than on an HDTV?

Let me put it this way, 480p consoles like the Wii look absolutely stunning on the L5, really vibrant and sharp. But they look like a blurry mess when connected to an HDTV. For pre-HD EDTV capable consoles the L5 or any 480p capable CRT is the way to go.

I used to cringe at Wii games as I played them on a 50" LCD but now I really enjoy their visuals.

[Ed Oscuro]

The set has some kind of auto correction that just throws off my settings. Power the set down and the values for everything change when I turn it on again... Nothing's set as I saved it. Or if I power the set down without saving anything, the values are still different.

Not really sure what to do at this point other than to find someone local with calibration equipment and a controller.

Did you press a key to write the new values to NVRAM (or whatever the set uses)?

[ExitPlanetDust]

The set has some kind of auto correction that just throws off my settings. Power the set down and the values for everything change when I turn it on again... Nothing's set as I saved it. Or if I power the set down without saving anything, the values are still different.

Not really sure what to do at this point other than to find someone local with calibration equipment and a controller.

Did you press a key to write the new values to NVRAM (or whatever the set uses)?

I did.

There's a display that you can call up to read the values (or power?) for the guns. They start to jump around a bit while the set auto corrects.

I will keep it around until I move in October, on the off chance that I might find someone who can properly calibrate it. If not it's going to the recycling center.

I'm not too upset over it. It's $30 I won't get back, but it could have been worse.

[Ed Oscuro]

The set has some kind of auto correction that just throws off my settings. Power the set down and the values for everything change when I turn it on again... Nothing's set as I saved it. Or if I power the set down without saving anything, the values are still different.

Not really sure what to do at this point other than to find someone local with calibration equipment and a controller.

Did you press a key to write the new values to NVRAM (or whatever the set uses)?

I did.

There's a display that you can call up to read the values (or power?) for the guns. They start to jump around a bit while the set auto corrects.

What you're describing sounds like just the first step. When it's done with its auto correction or whatever you should still (if it's like the consumer models) have that extra step of locking in the new values, i.e. on the consumer Trinitrons you need to next press MUTING or ENTER on the remote to write the values. Apologies if you're already doing this, but I didn't see it written explicitly, and it would be the most obvious likelihood.

I don't know if these monitors have backup fallback parameters if the NVRAM is shot, but that could explain the refusal to write new values if so. Depending on the memory type, it might still have the old values and just be unable to write new ones (as flash reportedly will do sometimes).

[ExitPlanetDust]

What you're describing sounds like just the first step. When it's done with its auto correction or whatever you should still (if it's like the consumer models) have that extra step of locking in the new values, i.e. on the consumer Trinitrons you need to next press MUTING or ENTER on the remote to write the values. Apologies if you're already doing this, but I didn't see it written explicitly, and it would be the most obvious likelihood.

I don't know if these monitors have backup fallback parameters if the NVRAM is shot, but that could explain the refusal to write new values if so. Depending on the memory type, it might still have the old values and just be unable to write new ones (as flash reportedly will do sometimes).

No apologies necessary. I appreciate the help.

Enter or RGB once brings up "SAVE" text. Hitting enter or RGB a second time displays a set of musical notes next to SAVE. I'm guessing that is confirmation.

[BuckoA51]

Someone in London needs to snap this up:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-Grade-On ... 3cd4830e8a

[BubbaMc]

Finally found a BKM-15R controller for my A20F1U.

The CRT has only done 9800 hours, pretty happy about that

Unfortunately I can only use a composite connection at the moment. If anyone has a spare BKM 68X module I'll take it!

[jdubs]

Anyone else running a Wii on your BVM / PVM? Wow, talk about awesome! 240p via emulation looks absolutely incredible! Its my definite go-to for 8-bit and 16-bit gaming.

-Jim

[kamiboy]

I am but the image quality of my Genesis and PC Engine win out. They just look better, but that does not mean that the wii in 240p looks bad per say.

[jdubs]

I am but the image quality of my Genesis and PC Engine win out. They just look better, but that does not mean that the wii in 240p looks bad per say.

Really?? Is this with your Wii via component vs. Genesis / PC Engine via RGB?

-Jim

[kamiboy]

Indeed.

[jdubs]

Indeed.

Interesting. I'm guessing its due to the RGB to component conversion....which "should be" exceptionally minor at worst.

To everyone else with a BVM / PVM (that are 240p / 480i capable) that's interested in 8-bit / 16-bit systems, PLEASE pick up a Wii (they are really cheap) and try out some emulation. Its awesome!!

-Jim

[Fudoh]

guessing its due to the RGB to component conversion.

I think it's more likely due the resolution mapping. The emu on the Wii has to transform the game's native resolution onto it's 720x240p/480i/480p output. This gives genuine systems the edge when it comes to pixel definition and sharpness.

[jdubs]

guessing its due to the RGB to component conversion.

I think it's more likely due the resolution mapping. The emu on the Wii has to transform the game's native resolution onto it's 720x240p/480i/480p output. This gives genuine systems the edge when it comes to pixel definition and sharpness.

Oh yeah, good point!! Forgot about that.

Is there any better way to emulate (including the use of an Extron Emotia) NES / SNES / Genesis / PC Engine - that's not a PC? The Wii seems pretty great aside from the issue above.

-Jim

[Fudoh]

I don't know if the XBox is any better (maybe?). I would recommend real hardware instead. If you don't feel like buying games, you can use flash cards for those systems.