The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Deca]

You don't need to point blank super aggressvely in st2 to get the extend by the end of it. Just stay on top of the counter, point blank in safer sections, and milk the icicles as much as possible.

[dunpeal2064]

And approach the (lobsters? Whatever it is that cancels bullets in Maniac) from the side to shed gems from them, if you are playing as palm. I can't score w Reco, my gf called dibs on her scoreboard xD

[Obscura]

Obscura, I can make a video of how I do st1?

Go for it, although I don't know how much it will apply to Reco (which is who I'm playing in BL, it seems that Palm has literally no survival advantages over her? His laser does less damage, his shot has less spread, and his speed just makes it easier to die. Reco vs. Palm seems to be like a choice between DDP C-S with A-L's laser, or A-L with C-S's laser).

[dunpeal2064]

Ah, yeah, it probably wont help then.

Fwiw, I gt both Original 1ccs with palm, and I didn't feel like he was too weak/disadvantaged.

[Gus]

25m from stage 1? Yeah, I don't think this game is for you. Just quit now and spare us from your annoying, ignorant bitching.

[Obscura]

Just quit now

You have no idea how much I wish I could.

[dunpeal2064]

Throw it on the Trading Station if you really want to quit.

If it feels like alcohol addiction... then dump the booze.

That wont happen though, because you and DTP obviously love Cave.

[Obscura]

Throw a rom on the trading station? I don't think that quite works...

[dunpeal2064]

Ha ha, you got me there.

You still love Cave

[Obscura]

You still love Cave

This very true; Ketsui and the Galudas are brilliant.

But fuck Futari.

[Deca]

How good are you at Ketsui? You say you do "significantly better" but never give any specifics.

Ketsui is a much more difficult game with harder to understand patterns, much more focus on speedkilling and hanging out in the top half of the screen, significantly less slowdown, and much less bullet cancelling. Also the player ships in Ketsui move quite slowly, which is another common complaint I'm seeing here.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Go for it, although I don't know how much it will apply to Reco (which is who I'm playing in BL, it seems that Palm has literally no survival advantages over her? His laser does less damage, his shot has less spread, and his speed just makes it easier to die.

I actually like his speed but that's just me. I'm pretty sure Palm is more intended to be the harder survival but better scoring potential shot type since he's more focused and won't accidentally kill stuff you didn't intend to (the way Reco's lock on beetles will).

You sure his BL focused shot's weaker than hers though? I always thought they were so similar as to not really be noticeably different (Palm Normal's focused laser is a different story, the only focused attack weaker than that appears to be Reco Abnormal when hitting without being locked on with any beetles).

If you don't like Futari though, don't play it. It's not like it's mandatory everyone who plays shmups has to like it, you're not the only person I know who's not fond of it.

[Obscura]

After a night of practice in BL, I've actually gotten further in it than Ketsui on my best run, and do about as well on my "typical" runs (aside from the fact that I never get the score extend in BL, whereas I always get it a bit past the halfway point in stage 2 of Ketsui); until last night, though, that wasn't true, and I had spent significantly more time on Futari. I've still gotten further in Ketsui than I ever did in 1.5.

Ketsui, a typical run ends in one of three ways:
1. Make a total mess out of the stage-3 midboss going for the extend, lack the bombs I need for the second half of stage 3.
2 (most common). Fuck up the stage 3 boss (I still get past him a lot more than I get past Futari stage 3's boss, though. And with fewer bombs used.)
3 (a lot more common than making it to Futari stage 4). Get owned by the tanks that shoot the collapsing circles in the second half of stage 4.

Best Ketsui run ever for me made it to the stage 4 boss's second form. Best Futari 1.5 run I've ever had ended against the stage 4 boss's first form. Best BL run I've ever had was into stage 5 a bit.


The big differences with Ketsui are that route planning is much easier because the game is less butterfly-effectish, and the bullet density is more than compensated for by how much slower the bullets are. Ketsui, I've got plenty of time to react to almost anything, even if I'm within 5-cube range; if I get off the bottom in Futari (or if it's an enemy that just fires low on the screen, like the giant beetles), the patterns are on top of me long before I can read them, so if it's not just a simple stream of aimed fire, I'm fucked. The same phenomenon is apparently with Futari Maniac as well as Ketsui, where despite having put less than 10 virtual quarters into it, I get damn near as far as I do in original.

[CptRansom]

I just started playing DFKBL today (after playing DFK 1.5 for like a day or two over a year ago >.>). Even Novice mode is kicking my ass... probably because I refuse to let go of either shot or laser unless I need to get somewhere in a hurry. Oh well, fuck it. 43bil with B-Bomb and stage 5 is good enough for two hours on day one (especially since that would put me at #1 for B-Bomb on the DFKBL Novice HS board... WINNING BY DEFAULT FUCK YEAH).

My grievance is that I've waited this long to play this game. <3

[blackoak]

Obscura, I realize you're just venting, but haven't you only recently started playing danmaku/bullet hell games? I mean, this stuff takes time to learn (even moreseo if you are getting used to joysticks concurrently). DDP was my first cave clear and it took me 4-6 weeks of pretty sustained play. Shortly after that I tried Futari and got walled consistently at the 3rd stage and boss, too. Looking back at my older saved shitplays, there were several insights about the bullet patterns that I just hadn't fully absorbed at that time, as well as basic posture in terms of aggressive play... which really makes a difference for the second half of that stage.

Just give it time, you'll get there. I don't know what your setup is either, but I noticed some improvements when I switched to an LS32, particularly for tap dodging (which I must say after gaining some experience is less critical than a host of other skills, but I still struggle when switching back to a JLF).

[BAD]

Thanks for proving me right, guys.

Right about what; that no one cares about your "HEY GUYS, LOOK AT ME, I'M HARDCOAR!!!!" posturing?

Good point, Obscura.

[Skykid]

:visits thread:

Sees folks complaining about the difficulty of Futari BLACK LABEL

:leaves thread:

[mesh control]

lol

more people need to go play mars matrix

[Obscura]

I just gave it a try with limited credits a la the console ports from the 8 and 16 bit days.

With three credits, it was piss easy. With two, it wasn't particularly hard once I knew what was coming with Larsa's attacks. If I can manage to find a workable strategy for the stage 3 boss, and learn how to get the stage 5 hidden extend (which will be hard without savestates) I've got this, even if I'm not able to get the second score extend (it's close, but seems just out of reach).

But good god, the stage 3 boss is an asshole. I literally lose more lives to him than I do to fucking Larsa.

Really, I need three lives when I get to Larsa, I think. If I can get the first score extend and the stage 5 hidden extend, that means I've got 2 deaths before then. I know where I want one bomb for the stage 2 boss (second form, when he fires the red spread after the second purple ribbon), and 2 bombs for the stage 4 boss (first form when the red bullets close in, second form when the red bullets close in for the first time). If I can somehow get the stage 3 boss down to 2 bombs, that means I've got five "placed" bombs; there's 3 bomb pickups, so that means that if I need three lives (with the current life having 1 bomb) to take down Larsa, I've got 9 bombs to work with, provided I don't die with any; that should be enough if I've got five "placed" bombs, even assuming how bad the pillbugs can be. But, I know I need a bomb for the third boss's final form, and I've got no clue how to deal with the first form with only one bomb...

This is also assuming I can get that stage 5 hidden extend. That section is *really* disorienting with the fast scrolling in every direction; I haven't succeeded in that task yet.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Throw it on the Trading Station if you really want to quit.

If it feels like alcohol addiction... then dump the booze.

That wont happen though, because you and DTP obviously love Cave.

I like Cave in the sense that they manage to release console ports of bullet hell games, and their games are (in concept at least) very good. What I don't like about them is that the games on the whole range from being too difficult to off-the-scale stupid. In some cases clearing them is all but impossible, which brings me onto this point

:visits thread:

Sees folks complaining about the difficulty of Futari BLACK LABEL

:leaves thread:

Whether you want to accept it or not, these games are hard and require you to spend many hundreds of hours memorising and practicing hoping that you get that one lucky run. It is unsurprising that some people are not able to spend that much time with them (due to interests outside of staring at a screen for 12 hours/day) or for many other reasons (perhaps they just don't want to)

This is where the perception of difficulty arises and how is it classified? as clearly someone who spends 60 hours a week playing these games is going to find them easier that a person who spends 10 hours a week playing.

[Gus]

Good to see da man back. Now we no longer have to settle for Obscura's shitty imitation.

[Bananamatic]

as clearly someone who spends 60 hours a week playing these games is going to find them easier that a person who spends 10 hours a week playing.

first sentence from DTP that makes actual sense

[AntiFritz]

@DrTrouserPlank

Futari Black Label original.... hundreds of hours...

what

[Skykid]

@DrTrouserPlank

Futari Black Label original.... hundreds of hours...

what

^ What he said.

Dudes, FBL is a cakewalk. Hand on heart, only Cave game I can say I finished on my first credit, and with horrific lag. That said, that's not a pure feat of miracle: I had cleared 1.5 several times on PCB prior to getting the port, so I knew the game... but, I didn't know the game well enough to guarantee a clear every time.

It's too easy to really be complaining about, honestly. 1.5 bemoaning is passable if you really must, but if you're not pushing for score FBL Original is probably one of the easiest Cave clears on the map.

[Deca]

Yeah I really don't like 1.5 and definitely can't just drop a credit in 1.5 original and expect to clear it. But BL Original? There's no way that should take anyone anywhere close to 100 hours to clear. I had maybe 20 hours max (and that's probably pushing it) in 1.5 before getting BL, and cleared BL Original within my first few tries. At that point the only other games I'd cleared were Death Smiles (after an evening of practicing only the final stage) and Normal courses in Batrider and Bakraid. This was back when I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to get through stage 5 of DDP.

So no, it's not just amazing players saying that in a relative sense BL Original is easy. I may have an easier time with it now but it really didn't present a huge challenge even the first time.

[Randorama]

What I don't like about them is that the games on the whole range from being too difficult to off-the-scale stupid. In some cases clearing them is all but impossible

No, no, you answer yourself below:

Whether you want to accept it or not, these games are hard and require you to spend many hundreds of hours memorising and practicing

And, aside that, the hundreds of hours must involve method. You're too intellectually lazy to read two pages on a Strategy Guide, so you may clock 1 million hours and still get nowhere.

This is where the perception of difficulty arises and how is it classified?

Is there an official scale, somewhere? Nobody is keeping track of such matters - threads about difficulty are all about subjective opinions and endless, pointless discussions.

Yours represent a pinnacle of pointlessness - but please keep posting, we all need a bit of schadenfreude, in life.

[Obscura]

For me, BL's difficulty is stage 3 and the fact that I can only get one extend (there's something I've got to be missing about the score system; sometimes, I don't get the point-blank fountain at all despite part of my sprite overlapping the enemy, and sometimes, when my option is locked onto something half-way across the screen, that enemy will spawn the fountain; WTF).

Seriously, stage 3 (and it's boss, which is much harder in BL than 1.5) are a real bitch, and with only one extend to play with, and knowing that I need 3 lives + 1 bomb for Larsa, and that I've got three "planned" bombs in the other stages, it's fucking *hard* to get through that section with only one death and no bombs that aren't on the life I lose (and then I've got to play perfect for the entire rest of the game...).

It doesn't matter that the entire rest of the game is easier than Ketsui's second stage (and that's really not an exaggeration) if I can't deal with stage 3.

[Skykid]

It doesn't matter that the entire rest of the game is easier than Ketsui's second stage (and that's really not an exaggeration) if I can't deal with stage 3.

Bomb?

[Deca]

Youre handicapping yourself by working out such strict guidelines for a clear. Ive had plenty of fleas on credits where I screwed something easy up early and almost restarted. Use savestates to practice the bosses and the end of st3 specifically.

The gem shedding only occurs when you're using the proper shot type. Also I believe shots from options may always shed gems regardless, but I'm not positive on that.

[JOW]

I don't get the point-blank fountain at all despite part of my sprite overlapping the enemy, and sometimes, when my option is locked onto something half-way across the screen, that enemy will spawn the fountain; WTF).

...that's because your option's shot is the thing that causes gems to shed.