What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Stevens]

Akujiki's got a big batch of chi to devour and you're sprinting off in search of the next slaughter. Balancing finesse with desperate aggression and reaping regular, visceral rewards is addictive as hell - something out of the best arcade gaming.

I never completed it back in the day - I gave up on a late indoor stage, and I remember lasers and I kept falling into pits. Back to what you said though - cutting down the stage 3 boss with one cut was memorable.

I had forgotten how much I love Bionic Commando. I will not it happen again. Nathan Spencer is a great character.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Finished up Dishonored. Great fun to play through stealth-style but a shame that it's required to get the good ending, given how many lethal weapons and upgrades you get but basically will never use. The missions also seem to get more linear as you get further into the game, with side objectives becoming a minor detour to boot. Disappointed also that most of your decisions don't seem to do anything other than get a passing mention from an NPC.

Also cleared Fire Emblem: Awakening, albeit on normal without permadeath because it's my first Fire Emblem and the software manual is pretty useless explaining what anything means. Need to do it "properly" now - fun as it was, there was no tension knowing that I had a couple of overlevelled characters capable of winning the mission by themselves.

[soprano1]

Man, how did i have the patience years ago to go back and forth between cities in ToP SFC?
Decided to stop a bit in Volt's cave and go back to Abyss. Apparently i saved outside Choral Castle, need to relearn battle system again...

[Zaarock]

The US version stands above EU and JP with its explosive uncensored violence and, more importantly, the exclusive Super difficulty. Revs up the speedkilling feedback loop to its wicked extreme. Akujiki is now absolutey ravenous for blood, demanding huge, regular TATE slaughterings. Enemy aggression, HP and attack power are off the scale, and only the most finessed slaying will keep the sakura raining down, the gore rolling in and Akujiki from eating you alive (at least if you stick with Hotsuma - despite his accelerated chi drain, Moritsune kind of trivialises Super with his massive damage output).

Sweet, looking forward to giving Super a go some day. This bastard of a last boss gave me a run for my money on hard though... I think Sega in the early 2000's made a lot of really interesting 3D games with unique mechanics like Shinobi PS2, Gunvalkyrie, Panzer Dragoon (& older titles like Virtual-On OT and of course the Virtua Fighter series) that deserve some more respect. Most games nowadays are dumbed down in comparison and handhold the player too much at the cost of trying new things & having some learning curve on controls.

Onward to Ninja Gaiden Black now though which I own but never really played for some reason (NG2 I've spent a decent amount of time on in comparison)

[qmish]

I recently did Shinobi on "normal" difficulty and it was hell enough for me Might try hard and super in future, maybe.

As for sequel, Nightshade, it has both improvements and mistakes. You may both like and hate it in same time. Overall, Shinoni is more balanced though.

[BIL]

Sweet, looking forward to giving Super a go some day. This bastard of a last boss gave me a run for my money on hard though...)

I remember both the Hard and Super final bosses as mean difficulty spikes - actually, the Super versions of stages 8A+8B were hell too, with the sadistically aggressive enemies and brutal chi drain. I actually left the PS2 on at Hiruko and took a long break because I didn't want to do Super 8B again. This was way back in 2003 or so... I'd have the good sense to not rush things now, I hope, but I was hell-bent on getting that clear file after the difficulty made EGM's reviewers wail in despair. The game was also on "Intervention," this hardcore gamer guy was going friggin nuts after killing Hiruko. For all I know these guys were all playing Normal. >_>

Hiruko's a deceptively hellish boss. Doesn't look all that hard but those god damn talismans (talismen?) are some sniper tank assholes requiring perfect spatial awareness. And you've got a randomly teleporting boss busting out the occasional brutal attack to deal with on top of them. On Super they can fire so rapidly the game will actually slow down, haha.

edit: zomg, Shinobi Intervention trailer on Youtube!

[qmish]

Actually, when boss has that crazy movement of following your own movements with teleportation and strikes (if you dont prevent this attack of him) it looked pretty epic, you really felt like some crazy battle of superbeings. Though better prevent as he can kill you easily there

I really loved elegance of this game. Every wrong move is fatal. You must kill efficient to live.

[BIL]

Yeah, you gotta listen for his fruity "hooah!" - when he does that and starts shufflin', run up and kick the shit out of him to avoid a terrible chain-dashing ordeal! Easier said than done if this happens while you're dealing with talismen, or if he's simply too far away to intercept.

Actually, when boss has that crazy movement of following your own movements with teleportation and strikes (if you dont prevent this attack of him) it looked pretty epic, you really felt like some crazy battle of superbeings.

Indeed, the rush of dodging every slap and continuing the fight unscathed made it *almost* worth it. If he managed to start his bitch-slapping frenzy, I found the best thing was to chain-dash like crazy in a long elliptical pattern. His lazors are the other big concern, you can get chewed up horribly if he spawns right above you with them. I really want to take this game up again now, I had absolutely miles to go with it... I pretty much got a sloppy clear file then bailed.

I'm trying to find the full ep of "Intervention" (s1e7), the bit of Peter going "UNHHH! YEAAAAAA" while recounting Hiruko's defeat was priceless. Shinobi will break up your family!

I think Sega in the early 2000's made a lot of really interesting 3D games with unique mechanics like Shinobi PS2, Gunvalkyrie, Panzer Dragoon (& older titles like Virtual-On OT and of course the Virtua Fighter series) that deserve some more respect.

I loved that brief period where the Xbox was hosting all these super-hardcore 3D action exclusives from Japan. I've had Gunvalkyrie and Orta for years now, sadly unplayed due to a lack of hardware... but I know I'll dig into all this stuff when the time is right. Ninja Gaiden Black, both Otogis and JSRF as well.

[Leandro]

Just finished Shantae Pirate Curse. Sweet little game. throws me back to 16 bit days.

I think I got a false ending though, I still need to find some stuff

[mamboFoxtrot]

Last time I played PS2 Shinobi, I quit at 5-A out of boredom. I guess I'll have to try it again, just to see what the later stages are like.
But really, I don't think it's too much of a mystery as to why something like Ninja Gaiden is more popular. I mean, this game may have the greatest system of any hack n slash game ever, be they 2D, 3D, 5D, or 36DD, but maaaaaan, some of these stages. "A bit thin" nothin', BIL - shit like 4-A and B have such hilariously no-effort copypasta designs that it makes the game feel like it wasn't even finished when they put it out the door.

[qmish]

Tshhh don't ruin our mood of loving and enjoying this game ><

Though what i liked about levels, is overall image they create. In colours, overall picture etc. But yeah, you have the point. That again, for example, Armored Core games have somewhat similar problem to lifeless levels which didnt stop us loving those games in general

Just finished Shantae Pirate Curse

Enjoyed it pretty much (while metroids nor castlevanias couldnt cought me to stay).

[BIL]

Nah, subpar editing can bring down the best material and Shinobi's no exception. It's not the later stages that improve things, so much as the upper tier - Super's trifecta of vicious enemies, savage chi drain and contempt for weak chains bring the system to the fore. Ala classic gallery shooters or beltscrollers, it's easy to forgive samey levels when each enemy encounter is life or death. Play it safe and Akujiki will keep you at death's door, with enemies poised to boot you straight through - not very ninja at all!

In terms of modern 3D stage design, it's really only in 8A+8B that the game's potential is glimpsed. A 45-60 minute credit of that stuff would be incredible, a design ethos sadly already vanished by 2002.

[trap15]

GUARDIANS aka Denjin Makai II. Hella good, I love how you can do pretty much anything and move everywhere with the right inputs, at least with Girulian. Confirms that my favorite thing in action games is interesting and fun movement. Pretty easy too, kinda want to 1CC this. Just did a clear with 3 credits, feel pretty good that I could do it. Also I figured out how to get it to synchronize with my capture equipment so I can actually stream it now!

[Vludi]

GUARDIANS aka Denjin Makai II. Hella good, I love how you can do pretty much anything and move everywhere with the right inputs, at least with Girulian. Confirms that my favorite thing in action games is interesting and fun movement. Pretty easy too, kinda want to 1CC this. Just did a clear with 3 credits, feel pretty good that I could do it. Also I figured out how to get it to synchronize with my capture equipment so I can actually stream it now!

Not to mention the bigass roster.
For an easy clear pick Skullbyule and just spam the down+up attack. Most characters are pretty good though, just stay away from Zeldia and Kurokishi because they are the worst.

[Hagane]

GUARDIANS aka Denjin Makai II. Hella good, I love how you can do pretty much anything and move everywhere with the right inputs, at least with Girulian. Confirms that my favorite thing in action games is interesting and fun movement.

Yeah, good movement options is perhaps the main reason that sets later Capcom beat'em ups so far away in terms of quality from the older stuff like Final Fight, too.

Denjin Makai II is indeed really good, large roster with great movesets and lots of stuff to do. I was finding new fun moves even after having 1CCd it many times. Best combo system in a belt scroller, too. Its low difficulty detracts a bit, only the last two stages get half serious, and even then for all the fancy technical stuff you can do I was able to beat the game doing jump kicks with Tulks 95% of the time.

Speaking of which, I never got the blocking in KoR. Way too difficult to pull off consistently and usually fails when you most need it. Game's pretty unforgiving as well.

Actually it's a bit too easy to pull off. If you keep holding back you will stay in blocking position, and if you don't parry anything you can bypass the recovery for a missed attempt by simply releasing it a bit before you get to that point.

As for characters, I use Percival because, for some reason, even though he's listed as the slowest character he's the only one who can run!. Weird. Besides the poor mobility, what annoys me the most of that game are the combat physics... feels like there's no impact freeze or something? Hitting enemies feels rather awkward.



Right now I'm playing Armored Warriors again, this time going for the no-miss. Such a great game, almost flawless besides the memo-heavy last boss. The high mobility, gigantic character variety due to the variable armor system, and a presentation that knows no equal in the genre puts it up there on the podium of the best Capcom beat'em ups with AvsP and Mystara.

It feels so different from all the other games too; using the weapons and part combinations well is what makes the difference from utter defeat to crushing victory. There's a much bigger emphasis on dodging stuff too. Knockdown offense is more important here than in any other Capcom game, as mantaining constant offense on knocked down enemies makes things much easier, so good OTG combos and using them to catch enemies backturned is key for easier survival. I like how even though there are fewer enemies on screen than in contemporary games it manages to keep things interesting by giving enemy mechs excellent mobility too, so if you screw up your crowd control you can easily get flanked and hit on the back.

The game seems very hard at first, but once you get used to its different approach it becomes very manageable, despite the super scarce life refills. My current approach is total offense rather than the safer tactics you tend to see on replays: Fordy with Treads, Flamethrower and Laser Blade is the ultimate speedkill machine. Immobilize crowd with the Flame, get in close and knock them down with a Laser Blade combo, then finish them off with dashing Treads OTG works wonders against a good deal of enemies. Laser Blade is pretty broken: infinites everywhere, great antiairs, projectile is super good, fully charged A+f sword does massive damage and takes care of those annoying light blue airdashing robots late in the game. Gotta be careful with the Treads though, if you fail to kill your enemy with the dash attack you leave yourself open for punishment and every attack hurts like hell in this game.

[Vludi]

Shadow over Mystara is unbalanced as hell compared to Final Fight though , the combat with regular enemies is flashy, but honestly dumbed down. AvP is a great game, but from mid game to the near end there is too much focus on guns, trivializing the melee combat. The whole game should have been like stage 3 imo (4 if we count the bonus).

[Squire Grooktook]

Can't speak for Mystara since I haven't put much time into it yet but

but from mid game to the near end there is too much focus on guns, trivializing the melee combat. The whole game should have been like stage 3 imo (4 if we count the bonus).

Not true, guns are for firing off a quick round or two and then lunging back into the action, and they're almost completely absent when fighting aliens past the mid game (since only marines drop them).

The game would most definitely not be better without the glorious, towering inferno that is the end game.

My only wish was that the game had a tlb where you fight an agile single target. Like a suped up version of Razor Claws. That is still the most fun fight in the game and one of the best boss fights ever IMO. Should have been the last one lol.

[Vludi]

Not true, guns are for firing off a quick round or two and then lunging back into the action, and they're almost completely absent when fighting aliens past the mid game (since only marines drop them).

The game would most definitely not be better without the glorious, towering inferno that is the end game.

My only wish was that the game had a tlb where you fight an agile single target. Like a suped up version of Razor Claws. That is still the most fun fight in the game and one of the best boss fights ever IMO. Should have been the last one lol.

Yeah there are some areas where you fight aliens, but i still think the second half of the game has too much guns, not that much enjoyable for me.
Razor claw is indeed a pretty fun boss, i imagine it having even more priority as a final boss lol.

[Squire Grooktook]

Guns are good but they aren't so good that you should stop using melee. When I play, I usually pick up all the guns I can, but my primary offense is still to lunge-jump in with predator and use a ton of specials and combos. They don't damage the melee gameplay: they compliment it. On that note, remember that you can still do a ton of melee attacks with guns equpped, so they're more of a utility to pick off one or two enemies on the other side of the screen from time to time when the opportunity to arise.

AVP is one of the only games ever made that I consider almost truly perfect, at least to me. Normally, I'm nit picking the hell out of even games that I love, but in AVP I don't think I would change a single thing (except maybe the stage 3 boss and the aforementioned tlb idea).

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think Sega in the early 2000's made a lot of really interesting 3D games with unique mechanics like Shinobi PS2, Gunvalkyrie, Panzer Dragoon (& older titles like Virtual-On OT and of course the Virtua Fighter series) that deserve some more respect.

Super Monkey Ball, Virtua Tennis, Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg, Ghost Squad, OutRun 2(SP/2006), twin stick Alien Syndrome PS2 remake.

[Hagane]

Shadow over Mystara is unbalanced as hell compared to Final Fight though , the combat with regular enemies is flashy, but honestly dumbed down. AvP is a great game, but from mid game to the near end there is too much focus on guns, trivializing the melee combat. The whole game should have been like stage 3 imo (4 if we count the bonus).

It doesn't get much less balanced than Final Fight. That game is chock-full of dumb stuff always in the game's favor. You do much less damage than enemies unless you do the turnaround infinites, enemies can kill ou in a few hits. No wakeup invincibility means you get knocked down and it's over (with the knife wielding guys being able to even bypass AB desperation move due to their insane range), dumb enemy AI that reads your inputs on the frame they are pressed and keeps optimal distance at all times, lots of 0 frame boss attacks that cover like half the screen, absolutely dumb boss throw ranges (often longer than your punches) that can get you hopelessly trapped in some fights like Rolento... and it's just an archaic game all around, hard mostly due to oversights and lack of options.

Mystara does have unbalanced stuff, but always in your favor (item shop related mostly), so you can mostly ignore it if you want to. And guns in AvsP only appear on sections with soldiers. They are there to make those sections easier if you want to, and if you don't you can just ignore them.

[Vludi]

It doesn't get much less balanced than Final Fight. That game is chock-full of dumb stuff always in the game's favor. You do much less damage than enemies unless you do the turnaround infinites, enemies can kill ou in a few hits. No wakeup invincibility means you get knocked down and it's over (with the knife wielding guys being able to even bypass AB desperation move due to their insane range), dumb enemy AI that reads your inputs on the frame they are pressed and keeps optimal distance at all times, lots of 0 frame boss attacks that cover like half the screen, absolutely dumb boss throw ranges (often longer than your punches) that can get you hopelessly trapped in some fights like Rolento... and it's just an archaic game all around, hard mostly due to oversights and lack of options.

Mystara does have unbalanced stuff, but always in your favor (item shop related mostly), so you can mostly ignore it if you want to. And guns in AvsP only appear on sections with soldiers. They are there to make those sections easier if you want to, and if you don't you can just ignore them.

Most of the stuff you named are present in a lot of beat 'em ups, the only thing i would say is a problem is no wake-up invincibility, but you get used to it later. The only problem in Final Fight is the cheeseable bosses (you can infinite most of them), but Shadow over Mystara is even worse in this aspect since there are many exploits to one-hit the bosses. Where Final Fight shines is regular enemies battles, you have to learn enemy AI to heart and make different strategies for each of them, in this aspect it destroys Shadow over Mystara imo, the enemies in SoM have a very stupid and harmless AI compared to Final Fight or even its predecessor Tower of Doom, they never have a chance against your juggle machine character. SoM plays more like an aRPG than a beat 'em up sometimes, especially with Magic User which i find pretty boring.
Similarly there are many ways to make Final Fight easier for beginners, infinite combos, Cody's knives, skipping enemies, cheeseable bosses, so i don't get your complain about few options to make it easier.

[Hagane]

Nah, the bad stuff about Final Fight got mostly fixed as Capcom got more experience in the genre. Particularly the AI; compare for example something like AvsP and Armored Warriors with its predictive AI that does things based on context and compare it with FF's silly input reading. The "AI" in FF can mostly be summed up as "get to optimal attack range and stay there to the pixel by reading the player's inputs". Since your character is so heavily limited and can't even run, any little mistake can get you killed in seconds and you are forced to memorize whole sections to avoid getting killed by poor AI design and enemy attack unbalance.

In SoM you can kill bosses easily via LBOs and the like, but what the game itself offers you is plenty good to clear the game. I'm very close to getting a no-shopping clear with the Thief, the supposed worst character in the game, who's still more than able to beat the game with what she has by default. There's so much combo depth in that game that you can easily soundly beat bosses using only what you pick up in the main game (and it's very fun to come up with combos and setups that give you the best offense and damage output) and in general it takes more skill than the simple turnaround infinites you can do against almost everyone in FF. And other than turnaround infinites, FF has little other in terms of damage boost other than getting a couple of attacks and then grabs. The damage you deal is so infuriatingly low that you are kind of forced to resort to infinites.

Devising strategies to deal with enemy formations and patterns in SoM, AvsP or Armored Warriors > memorizing AI exploits in FF, any day IMO. By the time The Punisher was released Capcom improved leaps and bounds over the archaic design of their older games, which feel so gimped and limited in comparison; it's very hard to get back to something like FF once you have tasted the heights Capcom took the genre at. Throw ranges, enemy variety, enemy attack balance, enemy formation design, combos, mobility options, AI, attack variety, those are just some of the things that Capcom greatly improved over time.

[Vludi]

You don't have to "exploit" the AI in Final Fight, you just have to know how to react to the enemies' attack, most of the time a simple jump kick is enough to reset the enemies thanks to the high priority. Hate to say it, but most of those complains disappear once you know how to play the game, if you think the characters do little damage just pick Haggar. Infinites also aren't mandatory at all to beat the game, and backward jumps make up for running just fine.

I can beat SoM with Thief, she's a fun character but it's in no way more demanding/fun than clearing FF with Haggar, since i maintain my position that the regular enemies in SoM are cakewalk and require 0 strategy, i find enemies in Tower of Doom more fun and demanding to kill than SoM since they require more strategizing than just simply juggling them before they can do something: blocking, positioning, counter-attack, carefully using items etc. A cool combat engine is nothing for me if the enemies aren't on par with it, Punisher is similar in that aspect because most of the enemies can be beaten with 0 strategy, just basic beat 'em up fundamentals and grenade spamming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-BEVV5XDs It's a lot more "button mashy" than Final Fight due to this.

[Hagane]

Final Fight requires very little strategy, it's all about memorization. I got very close to a clear many times but gave up out of boredom, it's just too dry and silly all around. Why should I be limited to piledrivers if I want to do more than laughable damage? Also enemy behavior variety largely boils down to "has more range than you, so jump kick or use a weapon" or "has similar range than you so you can approach him with less danger of getting cheaped". Other than that there's the enemies that block, which are simply taken care of with down kick into grab. By the way, you don't "react" to enemies in FF since you can do very little once their attacks come out. You just have to preemptively hit them with something they are not prepared to deal with, which to me is much closer to AI exploiting than anything else.

If FF is "demanding" it's because of its many flaws. The game itself is not really hard, it's just cheap and any little hit can kill you in seconds, but once you have things memorized you can avoid most of the cheap stuff. SoM has much more actual strategy, since you have to figure out how enemy formations behave instead of just memorizing whether you have to jump kick or not, and there's vastly more depth to its combat so you have more to think about than "do I grab or infinite?". The real good design in later Capcom games comes largely from how enemies are arranged and how they interact, since there's much more behavior variety than in something like FF.

Again, figuring out the super silly AI in FF is not strategy, it's just memorization. The game is just cheaper and kills you due to its poor defensive systems and poorly thought out enemy ranges that make getting knocked down instant death in most cases. A cool combat engine is very important for a good beat'em up by the way, since it adds so much depth than an old game like FF lacks. You keep talking about being able to cheap enemies in something like SoM but FF has the single dumbest way to kill pretty much anything in any Capcom game, by default, up there with LBO abuse in SoM. With the difference that you have many good and skilled ways to deal damage in SoM, while in FF your next best option is "hit twice, grab, hit twice, throw" unless you find piledriving everything fun.

[Vludi]

There is little pure memorization in Final Fight, and it's mostly the unexpected fat guys. Understanding enemy attacks isn't "memorization", that's the reason they designed different sprites with different AI types to begin with, to familiarize in how each enemy is going to attack you.
There is a good deal of random factor in Final Fight for each run, memorization means nothing if you haven't polished your skills in the game to react in those unexpected situations.

"By the way, you don't "react" to enemies in FF since you can do very little once their attacks come out"
You can literally prevent any enemy attack in Final Fight if you put enough attention:
-Andore: Jump kick or punch for the charge attack
-Two P: Just never let him surround you, when he is on your back you should go back asap.
-Gado: Approach him from up or down for a combo or grab, if he outranges you do a jump kick. When he jumps over you just move up or down, to avoid him or simply do a desperate attack.
-Poison: If she jumps over you, just grab her and reposition her. Sometimes she has a few i-frames, but keeping enough distance is enough.
-Slash: Many ways to approach his blocking, finish your combo on a grab, jump over him to grab, or simple do standard combos until he is dead.
-Fat guys: Never give him distance, if you do that he will get you with the charge attack. Best way to appoach the charge attack is jump + kick/down+attack.
-Jake/Simons: Pretty simple guys, just combo them in front, but never give them a bit of breath because their jump kick drains a lot of life.
-Molotovs: Punch the enemies, punch/kick the molotovs and you should be fine.

By your logic all enemy AI in these games should be the same? because i don't find that much fun, it's very repetitive to approach all the enemies in the same way like you do in SoM. Sure you can vary your juggle combos a bit, but that will never change that all the enemies are pushover and barely have a chance against you. The best thing about Final Fight is the combination of all these enemy types, you always have to be aware of the different ways the enemies will attack you or approach to you, few arcade brawlers do crowd control better than Final Fight, and SoM definitely isn't one of them. Also, you keep talking about infinites, but when there are 10 enemies on screen infinites will not get you anywhere in the game, the areas where you can safely infinite are rather limited.

To each his own i guess, i enjoy SoM and Punisher myself, but i don't find them as enjoyable, let alone "deeper" than Final Fight at all, i play them when i want a "light" beat 'em up. I remember my first clear with Cleric on SoM was disappointing for how undemanding the game was, beat 'em ups with heavy RPG elements often have these annoying balance problems. I still recommend Punisher for people new to the genre though since you have much fewer stuff to care about, but i don't replay it much because no character variety and rather generic enemy design.

[Squire Grooktook]

I am not too good at Mystara and nowhere near clearing it, and the same goes for Final Fight and such. That being said, I don't find Mystara's enemies brain dead or lacking in variety at all. They certainly kill me a lot, but even if they stopped doing so with practice, I don't think I would find a lack of difficulty to be all that detracting from the games joyful sliding and slashing action. Older brawlers on the other hand, I don't really care about the difficulty, whether it's too easy or too hard, because I just inherently don't find the combat anywhere near as fun.

This is why I just can't get into KoR for the life of me. On paper, I find the parry system interesting, particularly the concept that you can theoretically escape any situation and parry anything, no matter how dire or grim. But by the time I hit stage 3, I'm almost invariably bored of it and seldom give it another credit. I just can't stand having to go through an entire game wacking dudes with the same 1-2 sword slaps. Or the slow walk speeds. Sure, different enemies require different tactics and spacing and such to kill optimally, but the lack of options (again, not to say there aren't any, but there are certainly less then there would be in a game with a more diverse and developed move set) to approach situations in creative and varied ways just makes it a drag for me.

If I were to make my own KoR, I would probably give it a faster move speed, a dash, an air dash, a dive kick, and 1 or 2 more specials to play with, with the game then balanced around all this. Then I would enjoy it.

Anyway I do tend to agree with Hagane that the older, more richly developed movesets of older brawlers eclipse their more "pure" and simple predecessors, at least for me. I understand that there can be depth and variety even when you're playing spacing games with just 1 punch, the problem is I simply don't find it all that fun or interesting.

To me, the genre that excels in "purity" are shmups. Because even with the simplest controls and mechanics, you have the potential for infinite complexity in the patterns. I would say overall that shmups have more fun "defense" (due to the joy of dodging) but have to work much harder to make "offense" fun and deep (since mostly shooting amounts to standing in front of something and holding a button), while melee combat based games have less fun "defense"/dodging due to the simpler nature of dodging telegraphed melee attacks (more of a "simple" reaction then a "choice" reaction, which is what shmups thrive on), but more more interesting and engaging offensive options (combos, crowd control, rushdown, sense of impact on blows, etc.). However, you don't get the most out of that offense unless you have an at least marginally developed move set to give you OPTIONS. They don't thrive on simplicity the same way shmups do IMO.

But that's just my opinion~

[Vludi]

I think it's a bit arbitrary to categorize "old brawlers" as all the same, KoR plays completely different to FF or Warriors of Fate for instance, it has more in common with D&D1 actually. So what applies to KoR doesn't necessarily applies to other games from the time.

For me the appeal of the genre isn't necessarily in flashy special attacks, but the way you manage your mobility and position tricky enemies to your favor. I appreciate the juggles and special attacks addition of the later games, but for me they are mostly gimmicks and not something that adds too much to the core gameplay of the genre, which is crowd control, mobility and good enemy design. I would say that the only game in the genre that i love purely because of the combat engine is Denjin Makai 2.

Contrary to what you said, i think brawlers like Final Fight or WoF are more about defense than offense. I think this video illustrates perfectly the point of the game, you guys say the game is too simple, but mastering the game even with its relatively limited moveset is easier said than done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulCvAZsNDk4
Not to mention you have too use all your moveset to succeed, while in AvP for example you can 1cc the game with Linn just using the gun 90% of the time, ignoring the cool flashy air throws and the such.

[Squire Grooktook]

I appreciate the juggles and special attacks addition of the later games, but for me they are mostly gimmicks and not something that adds too much to the core gameplay of the genre

Juggles and combos depend on context, but special attacks not so. A special attack, if well designed, can be a swiss army knife that can be used for attacking at different angles, mobility, crowd control, etc. etc. A good example is Predators down up attack in AVP. It has just as much use as a mobility tool (simultaneously attacking forward while lunging out of reach of enemies attacking you from behind, or using it to emergency cancel a string to dodge out of the way of something) as it does as a simple combo extender or knock down move. Moves like that add a tremendous amount of variety and depth to the gameplay, rewarding you for using your head and approaching situations in much more creative and diverse ways.

Combos depend on context. Against a single target, combos are just a way of allowing you to increase your damage through extra skill. But during crowd control, they become a much more risk/reward and strategic element, forcing you to measure spacing vs damage and knockdown capacity when deciding on how to attack enemies and capitalize on damage.

Contrary to what you said, i think brawlers like Final Fight or WoF are more about defense than offense.

The line between offense and defense can be a blurry one, as at times a good offense is the only way to stay alive long term. But simply "dodging" swings by backing up or side stepping in a brawler, or blocking them in games that have that mechanic, is never as innately satisfying as weaving through patterns in an stg IMO. Brawlers complexity more revolves around spacing, which always has a balancing act of offense and defense. But my point is that the joy of the genre ultimately comes from hitting or slashing people in various ways, so the more ways you can do that, the better. Just like the more complex and varied the patterns are in a shmup, the better.

In my opinion, at least.

you guys say the game is too simple, but mastering the game even with its relatively limited moveset is easier said than done:

Again, I have no problem with the difficulty. The issue is that I don't find them fun enough to bother mastering. No offense to anyone who enjoys them, but I just can't get into that style of gameplay. Maybe one day I'll open up to it, but for now they mostly leave me cold because of the reasons and preferences I mentioned.

Not to mention you have too use all your moveset to succeed, while in AvP for example you can 1cc the game with Linn just using the gun 90% of the time, ignoring the cool flashy air throws and the such.

This is debatable. My main experience is with Predator's and I find you'll definitely have an easier time if you master lunge jumps + down up kick + your various air options, rather then sticking with a single attack the whole game. That being said, part of the fun of the game is definitely that when you return on future playthroughs, absolutely mastering all these options gives the game unfathomable depth. Learning to spot the windows to take advantage of the ten bajillion options you have available at any given time in a random, improvisation focused reflex game is absolutely joyful and doing so rewards you with the fastest and most absurdly stylish clears.


AVP is so good it almost gave me an existential crisis. Has mankind only ever achieved perfection in this one game? Is this truly the height of our accomplishments as a species? It seems so.

#AvpFanboy

[Vludi]

There is no much depth about Predator's special aside from cancelling your combo, it's just another long-range knockdown like a jump kick or a forward throw, only with more damage and slower recovery. The deal with AvP is that there is much less focus in throws compared to the older games in the genre and more focus on stylish footsies, but functionally there really isn't much differences in terms of crowd control. In older games cancelling your combo into throws is the main way to position your enemies, AvP is missing that move in favor of an slightly different crowd control style, but that doesn't necessarily makes it "deeper".

And i think enemy patterns matter just as much as the controls of your character, if i want to have fun with stylish attacks and big combo potential i guess i would just go to the training mode of my favorite fighting game, but in a beat 'em up i need good AI design that tries to outsmart me.

I agree tht P. Warrior is a more complete character, my complain was mostly about Linn, because the gun really trivialize a lot of the combat using her.