Cave x Steam teaser!

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Obscura
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Obscura »

As someone whose time spent with shmups as an adult started with keyboard and is now on stick, and as someone who has played with both input devices pretty extensively, I can say I definitely prefer stick.
awry wrote:Keyboard has the lowest travel time for each directional input,
Incorrect on the right type of lever (hint: use an LS-32 for shooting and save the JLF for fighting.)
tactile feedback that I personally prefer
Entirely subjective, and kinda strange at that.
the ability to hold two opposite directional keys at once to repeatedly press one of them for precise zigzag motion
...Exactly when would this ever be useful?
the least hand movement and thus the least strain
Less hand movement doesn't mean less strain. As someone who has played with both methods, my "direction hand" cramps much worse after a long STG session on keyboard than it does on stick. Hell, on stick, with buttons that are lighter to press than keyboard keys, my button hand cramps faster than my stick hand, which wouldn't make sense if movement equalled strain.
and of course affordability.
Keyboards being cheaper than sticks has no impact on which is better for playing. Besides, if you're buying a good keyboard, it's probably a less than $50 difference.
Meanwhile an arcade stick has... uhhh... ummm... well... that retro feel?
Better control during the kinds of large sweeping motions you'll need in large hitbox games, better buttons for playing any kind of game, faster diagonals. Pretty sure that actual input time from neutral to movement is actually faster on a Seimitsu LS-32 than it is on a mechanical keyboard with Cherry Blues as well (those switches have too much resistance for any kind of fast action gaming).
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emphatic
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by emphatic »

I just realized there's a 360 port of DoDonpachi. Should make a steam port really possible. :)
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Bananamatic
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Bananamatic »

Image

btw i suck ass at shmups but let me tell you why my input method is the most natural and best
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awry
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by awry »

Obscura wrote:Keyboards being cheaper than sticks has no impact on which is better for playing.
If price weren't an issue then I wouldn't be making up all these crappy reasons for why a non-dedicated gaming peripheral is better than a quality dedicated one. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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emphatic
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by emphatic »

Keyboard pros:
No dead zone - faster, more precise actuation

Cons:
Must press two keys for 50% of the needed directions (note that diagonal movement can be avoided for at least 70% of most shmups)
Easier for unwanted inputs due to gravity + resting fingers

Joystick pros:
Diagonals feels natural and is quickly executed if you're already going one of the affected directions

Cons:
If you're making a left then need to go right, you have to travel across the deadzone
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RegalSin wrote:Street Fighters. We need to aviod them when we activate time accellerator.
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Blinge
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Blinge »

Bananamatic wrote:Image

btw i suck ass at shmups but let me tell you why my input method is the most natural and best
This. lmfao
Giest118 wrote:We have at least one world class player for every single control method. Stop buttfucking this dead horse already.
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Icarus
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Icarus »

A friendly reminder from your local neighbourhood mod police: keep the discussion civil, or you're getting a ban.
No questions asked, no warnings given, no appeals granted.
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Cee
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Cee »

Came here hoping for updates on the release and instead get 2 pages of spergs comparing boysticks.
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CWM
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by CWM »

Makes me want to build a cab with a keyboard and post photos up here just to see the reactions. Or maybe someone has already done this?
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Xyga
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Xyga »

CWM wrote:Makes me want to build a cab with a keyboard and post photos up here just to see the reactions. Or maybe someone has already done this?
I remember when pre-frontend/interface 'MAME cabs' were a thing many had a keyboard and a mouse in a drawer below the control panel.
So sexy.
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Tatsuya79
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Tatsuya79 »

It seems some people are never tired of proclaiming some universal truth in the face of other on this forum.
Now controller war? why? just why? nobody cares.
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Skykid
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Skykid »

Cee wrote:Came here hoping for updates on the release and instead get 2 pages of spergs comparing boysticks.
Tatsuya79 wrote:It seems some people are never tired of proclaiming some universal truth in the face of other on this forum.
Now controller war? why? just why? nobody cares.

To be honest the scope for discussion about shmups and on shmups forum is damn limited.

It's not surprising we see the same debates arising over and over. This thread is 28 pages and has 830 posts, and the only actual news is that Mushihimesama is coming to Steam.

That's it.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Squire Grooktook »

To be fair that's what most forums are like in my experience. Hype threads often end up going off topic as hell because there's simply nothing to talk about when new information is trickled to us so slowly.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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qmish
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by qmish »

and you keyboard people have something wrong with you
Still, i'd say keyboard is much closer to "arcade controller" than gamepad. Now, i'm explaining why:

On gamepad you have your thumb which you must move between A/B/X/Y buttons and index/middle fingers can help you with left-right triggers/shifts, and your hands resemble crab's claw when you do it.

On keyboard, like on arcade controller, you 1) have each button with function under each finger 2) the way you had your hand placed is relaxed

I won't discuss stick vs. D-pad vs. WASD thing, but i'd like to mention this

Image

Which proves that for different people different methods are more comfortable.

For example, i can't play Devil May Cry 3 on gamepad, my hands become exhausted too quickly (maybe because as i played guitar etc. i have my NON-thumb finger movements developed) , so i went for pc version instead.
Btw lol someone need to test it on arcade stick instead.
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cave hermit
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by cave hermit »

I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" control method, just an intended control method;
Cave shmups are made with the assumption that the player is using a joystick, but that doesn't mean you can't play decently using a game pad or a keyboard.

It just comes down to what suits you best in the end.
Spoiler
I'm pretty shit at shmups in any case, so I may or may not just be talking out of my ass
Honestly my preference for a joystick just comes down to DAT ARCADE FEEL, although my thumb does tend to cramp up when playing shmups on a dpad, and I couldn't really play competently on a keyboard back when I had no USB controllers.
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Xyga
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Xyga »

When it comes to controls I have per-game preferences lol.
Some shmups I have to play with a stick, some with a d-pad...there's even one mentioned here I play exclusively with a dualshock analogue stick, but I won't tell. :p

Anyway for me, Mushi -> stick. And a tight one please.
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Cagar
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Cagar »

emphatic wrote: Must press two keys for 50% of the needed directions (note that diagonal movement can be avoided for at least 70% of most shmups)
Easier for unwanted inputs due to gravity + resting fingers
:lol: :lol: :lol:
How is "must press to keys" a con? Seriously, explain. Do you have some sort of nerve-damage in your fingers and have to start holding the buttons one by one with delay between the keys or something?

Also, it's literally impossible for me to press buttons by just resting my fingers on them. I can even apply some pressure and still not activate the key.
Do you have ultimately fat fingers or a touch-screen keyboard?

I want you to record a video of doing repeated left-right and up-down movement really fast without accidentally hitting diagonals on the stick.

I'm not making a "lol keyboard is superior" point here, but pointing out of the controller war arguments on this forum are completely brain-dead.
I don't believe that the controllers are equal, but I don't believe that anyone has a solid answer for which controller is the best.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Bananamatic »

Cagar wrote: repeated left-right and up-down movement really fast
those are literally useless in shmups (except for psyvariar, which happens to be easier to play on a stick)
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Despatche
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Despatche »

we have solid answers (i don't btw) and this argument can go very well. the problem is that noone actually wants it to, they all just want to be assholes. that is the true reason why these kinds of topics get split out, locked, and warned against: people are hateful.

but it's really a mystery as to how discussion even happens, since people can and will be hateful about pretty much every topi- oh wait, that actually happens, and that's why this forum has such a bad reputation among people who aren't just former trolls.

this shit has been going on for about a decade now, and every year we get at least one incredibly vocal moron who sticks around for a while to support the cause. the fun cannot be stopped, i guess.
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Xyga
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Xyga »

Can't help it, the internet revealed humanity's true face.

Anyway I find this place civilized and the mods always stop us when needed.
I mean check the reader's comments under any news article or video today, it's like everyone on Earth is ready to kill everybody just for dropping a spoon.
Comparatively we're almost gentlemen ! (almost!) :wink: :mrgreen:
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STG4WD
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by STG4WD »

Just to 'steer' things back on topic without changing the subject, I think it's pretty much a given that MushiSteamesama will have keyboard support. The devs can't assume that every PC user has a controller or joystick.

Having official keyboard support would presumably be a first for Cave games, so now we can officially test the 2 input methods for effectiveness.

Whoever advocates a particular control method, post your 1CC replay and provide notes on the parts where your chosen controller helped you out.

Make her wiggle!
#STG4WD>>
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qmish
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by qmish »

But would it be remappable kes? My hands work different, so i suck much more on arrows + zxc than on wasd + jkl
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by STG4WD »

qmish wrote:But would it be remappable kes? My hands work different, so i suck much more on arrows + zxc than on wasd + jkl
I would pretty much bet the keys will be assignable.

I was more of a qa/op/space kinda guy back in my 128k days :wink:
#STG4WD>>
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CWM
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by CWM »

Scores should be invalid unless achieved with a HOTAS setup, imo.
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Mantrox
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Mantrox »

CWM wrote:Scores should be invalid unless achieved with a HOTAS setup, imo.
lol, let's make that standard from now on!
If you want to bomb, you have to lift the cap from the red button as well!
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qmish
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by qmish »

Steel Batallionpachi crossover, anyone?
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Obscura
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Obscura »

qmish wrote:Still, i'd say keyboard is much closer to "arcade controller" than gamepad. Now, i'm explaining why:

On gamepad you have your thumb which you must move between A/B/X/Y buttons and index/middle fingers can help you with left-right triggers/shifts, and your hands resemble crab's claw when you do it.

On keyboard, like on arcade controller, you 1) have each button with function under each finger 2) the way you had your hand placed is relaxed
Agreed for certain genres. I haven't played shmups much on a pad, so I can't speak for "pad vs. other things" for that genre, but for fighting games (where precisely timed button presses are just as important as movement), I'd take keyboard over pad any day.

As for hitboxes, they're actually a pretty different beast than keyboards. Sanwa buttons behave very differently than keyboard switches. They're larger, have a shorter travel distance, a lighter spring, and a different feeling "click" to them after actuation (no Cherry Blue style "rebound click" to them at all, but a solid bottoming out).
For example, i can't play Devil May Cry 3 on gamepad, my hands become exhausted too quickly (maybe because as i played guitar etc. i have my NON-thumb finger movements developed) , so i went for pc version instead.
Btw lol someone need to test it on arcade stick instead.
Would DMC 3 even be playable on an arcade stick? Digital movement would really suck in that game.
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qmish
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by qmish »

Guess so, i suggested it more as a joke. And there are games like God Hand which cries for analog stick movement more than others.
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by HydrogLox »

Strikers1945guy wrote:Why is no one asking for something like Ibara with a shit port and ball crushingly horrible mame support? Or Ibara Kuro? Or Ketsuipachi ? !
Of the ones that you mention the "DDP DFK BL" package is the one that is most likely to make it to Steam. It already exists as an Xbox 360 package and was a NTSC-J region locked released. The package already includes a novice mode to appeal to a wider audience. The only downside is that the "DDP DFK BL" mode is already available on the PAL Xbox marketplace (which could also be an issue with Rising Star Games) - but they could always sweeten the deal by including "DDP" (the unlockable that is buried in "Instant Brain") Judgement-Silverword style. The militaristic theme of "DDP DFK BL" would also be a nice stylistic counter piece to the fantasy theme of "Mushihimesama HD". Cave probably has just enough "gas in the tank" to pull of a Steam port of the "DDP DFK BL" package - of course provided the sales of "Mushihimesama HD" give them the proper incentive.

Ibara/Kuro's reputation as a "nutcracker" isn't going to sell copies. So in addition to the extra effort of doing a port from the arcade version (rather than from an Xbox 360 version) they would have to create a whole new novice mode to appeal to a wider audience. Given what has been going on with Cave over the past year it is unlikely that there are the resources and the will for a project of that magnitude.

So basically the "DDP DFK BL" package is the one everyone should be rooting for as it has a realistic chance to make it to Steam.
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Obscura
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Re: Cave x Steam teaser!

Post by Obscura »

HydrogLox wrote:Ibara/Kuro's reputation as a "nutcracker" isn't going to sell copies.
I can't speak for Kuro, but with Ibara, I think it would lose a lot of that reputation if it were possible to get people to stop trying to play like the ACR superplay. Trying to score in Ibara seems to really piss off the rank unless you're doing it really well (medals give more rank than in Garegga + bombs piss off the rank a lot).

Playing Ibara while trying to score, I've never made it past stage 2. When I tried ignoring score, I didn't have any problems making it to stage 4 in a couple of evenings.
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