the first person shooter game thread (eew fps)

[Edmond Dantes]

Well, you can always go back and alternate plays of Dark Messiah of Might & Magic and the Action DOOM 2: Urban Brawl episodes.

Please tell me Dark Messiah of Might & Magic is better than Crusaders of Might & Magic was.

I mean, Crusaders wasn't terrible, but it didn't really stand out. It was average. and I kinda dislike how 3DO kept putting the name "Might and Magic" on damn near every fantasy-themed game they made. Remember when Might & Magic was an RPG series? a good one?

Oh, FPSes... ummm... Anyone played Spectre? Its kind of like the arcade game Battlefield, but its for the PC and in color? I found it on a CD-ROM compilation at Goodwill. It's pretty fun, but definitely a "play in quick bursts when you're bored" kind of game.

[Damocles]

Did you see my earlier post about SS2Tool and the latest unofficial patch, which allows running the game at any resolution with many modern-compatibility tweaks? It's straight bugfixing, no gameplay changes:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 65#p998265

That should give a good baseline from which to play the game. By the way, I wasn't able to find this v.5.67 you speak of...and it didn't ring any bells either. Is it an official patch?

Unofficial. v5.67 is the patch you linked to earlier in the thread. I have not had much time to play around with the buggy areas yet, so I'm curious to see how badly they're broken.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Oh, FPSes... ummm... Anyone played Spectre? Its kind of like the arcade game Battlefield, but its for the PC and in color? I found it on a CD-ROM compilation at Goodwill. It's pretty fun, but definitely a "play in quick bursts when you're bored" kind of game.

One of these days I ought to dust off my paleo Mac to see how Spectre Supreme holds up (and - first and foremost - just how high the scores I was so proud of before the internet really are).
That being said, I'm not sure about the original Spectre, but Supreme was a seemingly endless game. Certainly not quick bursts. Oh, and I found it very playable with a mouse, even though I doubt it does anything arrow keys don't. Ergonomics are where it's at.

[BIL]

Oh man, I forgot SOD's sweet choons funkyzeit!

COLD BLOODED ROUND SHATTERS NAZI SKULL

[drauch]

Oh man, I forgot SOD's sweet choons funkyzeit!

COLD BLOODED ROUND SHATTERS NAZI SKULL

I SAY GAWD DAMN BOY. Them nice dope beats. Still don't own this bloody game. Coolest cover around!

[BIL]

Hell yeah - Rizer, Kenshiro, BERUMONDO and Haggar all weep manly tears aspiring to one day attain the carbon steel hardness of BJ's immortal flex.



BUMBOCLAAT, DE MAN DEM FLEXX

[drauch]

Good Crom, I never took the time to BJ's arm up close! His tricep is ungodly! Mark my words: someday I will look like that, and I will break a glass case with an AK-47.

[Edmond Dantes]

Question:

Does Interplay's Descent count as a Flight Sim or a First-Person Shooter?

Or is it easier to just call it "gaming's first motion sickness inducer"?

[Mortificator]

Quake 4, "An ID SOFTWARE game... developed by Raven Software."

I'd seen the mildly infamous (though it's No Russian) medical facility scene years ago, but hadn't played the game until now. Someone realized the Z-Secs you fight early in Doom 3 were actually the most dangerous enemies, so we get high-tier Strogg equivalents as later-game threats. A couple of surprisingly long vehicle segments where you have two weapons and a recharging shield, wonder where they got that idea from? I appreciated the nail gun and lightning gun, artifacts from a time when Quake meant eyeless yetis.

Just an average game, for the most part, but if you feel the irresistible compulsion to play an id Tech 4 shadowy metal corridor let's go marine FPS, Quake 4's the better choice.

[Limbrooke]

Quake 4, "An ID SOFTWARE game... developed by Raven Software."
[...]
Just an average game...

You may recall some heated discussion on Quake 4 about four years ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 72#p569972
Looking back I was pretty harsh but I still stand by the main points. It's quite slow in the first half and once you've been Strogg-ified the game feels lacking in challenge. In comparison to Doom 3, Quake 4 could at least hold my attention. I've yet to be able to carry through on a completion in D3, yet Raven developed games have been without issue thus far. I did end up playing some Quake 4 online but it was brief and fairly sparse - I'd still go back to QL despite being very out of practice.

[Ed Oscuro]

Heh, good times. I find it hard to compare D3 and Q4 - they left substantially the same impression on me (in other words, not much of one) and while Q4 had the benefit of a later development date, it didn't really do anything interesting with the gameplay, and there's once again a poorly presented story sucking up our attention.

If you want a good Raven Software "go marine" type game, with corridors, you could try Elite Force, made back in the days when Voyager wasn't cool (to think I'd be nostalgic for the late '90s / early '00s!) and when shiny surfaces were a special thing, and not the dull gunmetal gray textures in abundance in D3 and Q4. It's also still got pretty decent level design.

[Edmond Dantes]

... So wait, Raven Software did other games besides Heretic, Hexen, and Shadowcaster?

God I'm old.

*Wishes he had a copy of Shadowcaster*

[Ed Oscuro]

Looking at the old thread yesterday, I wondered to myself whether my "Raven had gotten worse as the years went along" argument really was true. So here's a whole stack of opinions, going down the list:

Shadowcaster - a weak game with nice artwork at points
CyClones - weak game, some nice artwork, but lots of blocky and underdetailed maps
Heretic - uneven, though it has some great moments
Hexen - less uneven but rarely attains the excitement Heretic often does
Deathkings (expansion) - been a while, but felt less detailed and interesting than Hexen
Necrodome, Mageslayer, Take No Prisoners - haven't played
Hexen II - uneven, characters feel less well developed and balanced (specifically in handling - the Assassin's grenades and ammunition problems are the cause of much trouble) than the original Hexen
Hexen II - feels like a good development of Hexen II, has some good moments
Heretic II - quite good through much of its length, though it fizzles out near the end
Soldier of Fortune - again has some problems with pacing at points, but generally quite good
Star Trek Voyager - Elite Force - don't remember the details of this game vs. Ritual's high-quality sequel, but I do believe that Raven's game (and its expansion pack - Captain Proton!!) are high-quality.
Jedi Knight II - Jedi Outcast - again, uneven, but some amazing moments here. Who handles our garbages?
Soldier of Fortune II - sorry that I sound like a broken record...there's a lot of good stuff on show here; the historical mission was tight and well-executed, though the modern-day stuff and the ending were less interesting
Quake IV - thoughts on file elsewhere. Not really "uneven" as "it's more fucking DOOM III."
Wolfenstein (2009) - not quite as much beef in some areas for replayability as I'd like, but this was great fun throughout most of its runtime when I played it around release.

My experience with newer Raven Software stuff is non-existent, though Singularity sounds interesting enough (if not as likely to impress as the actual Russian/Ukrainian-made games on these themes).

Ritual was a better developer when they were both active - but Raven has a longer history at both ends (unless you look to Ritual's progression of users from Gathering of Developers, and the long experience of some of its members in the industry before that) and is turning out just fine these days.

Aside from uneven pacing, Raven's games have sometimes suffered from some thinness in the user-game world playing interface - often constricting linear maps and not much in the way of replayability (for my money). There are exceptions though, and although I don't care for the original Hexen campaign that much, Hexen II's unevenly designed character classes still offer some measure of easy replayability.

Of course, just staying alive for so long has been a feat. And their output is assuredly better overall than that of ex-Raven founded Human Head Studios.

[Edmond Dantes]

... You listed Hexen II twice. I assume the second listing was either supposed to be the Portal of Praevus expansion or else Heretic II.

I found Heretic II kinda fun actually. Back in the day many people dissed it just because it wasn't an FPS, but...

Also Raven apparently did a Wolfenstein game, though apparently not a well-received one.

... Still would like to have Shadowcaster. I remember that game being awesome.

[Ed Oscuro]

I just noticed the Spear of Destiny's case seems to be on the other side of a suspension bridge in the middle of an eternally stormy dimension. If only graphics could match the imagination of the artist! Well, probably it's supposed to be a split perspective (that's really a staircase behind him) but I like the more surreal explanations.

the Portal of Praevus expansion

Whoops, that's right. Heretic II got its own listing.

I found Heretic II kinda fun actually. Back in the day many people dissed it just because it wasn't an FPS, but...

I remembered the palace area looking stunning when I had played it originally. Went back some time later and it wasn't up to my memories. But that's a small thing really - the game has a lot of style, decent enough gameplay ideas for being a FPS smashed into a third-person game engine. People with third-person game experience would have done the single player combat better, though multiplayer probably still has its adherents given how rare that style is. Overall, I really liked it - back in the day I don't think I bothered going through the final areas, the rather lousy ones.

Today, I'd say there is probably little reason to play it because Hexen II (and its expansion!) do a similar type of combat better.

Now that I think about it, it really is rather strange that Hexen II remained an FPS, given that it was moving more in the direction of a third-person game, while Heretic II broke from that series' roots. Possibly it had to do with Raven catching up to the trend of third-person games, I guess.

Also Raven apparently did a Wolfenstein game, though apparently not a well-received one.

Eh, crybabies. I liked this one well enough, as I said. Endgame wasn't a letdown either. I think that the 2001/02 Return to Castle Wolfenstein was arguably better in at least portions, but the '09 Wolfenstein had a fair number of good bits - though I don't think the pacing of the exploration goodies and upgrades really quite worked with the upgrade progression (I recall being able to upgrade pretty much everything before the endgame, and there's no "New Game +" type stuff); the whole concept of upgrade progressions didn't make much sense in a game that linear - even though it was somewhat less linear than most of their games. Still, good stuff overall, and it made it feel slightly more complete than much of their stuff.

I guess that's a criticism of a lot of Raven Software's stuff - they try to put a potential on non-linear games and they actually were at the forefront of that movement (Shadowcaster, Hexen being the obvious first ones) but if I had to choose, putting in more refined single-player gameplay like Capcom did in its own third-person games would have been more welcome, if I had to choose. Still, they get props for being early advocates of exploration-based gameplay in the modern genres.

Of course, William Shatner's TekWar is hub-based to the extreme, and only like 10 people remember that game fondly (I would be one, but I only found and played it recently - all except that pesky Matrix level, egh)!

... Still would like to have Shadowcaster. I remember that game being awesome.

Eh, it's pretty bad actually. It seems like it'll be awesome, and then you realize it's not really. The concept is great, the engine and artwork is classic Raven style - but the combat is atrocious and there's some gaps in the level design.

[Mortificator]

^ That's my experience with Shadowcaster as well.

Star Trek Voyager - Elite Force - don't remember the details of this game vs. Ritual's high-quality sequel, but I do believe that Raven's game (and its expansion pack - Captain Proton!!) are high-quality.

Elite Force was definitely quality, but Elite Force II... well, I think it's significant that the first game was able to develop a more interesting setting based around Voyager than the sequel could when it had the Enterprise to work with.

You may recall some heated discussion on Quake 4 about four years ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 72#p569972
Looking back I was pretty harsh but I still stand by the main points. It's quite slow in the first half and once you've been Strogg-ified the game feels lacking in challenge. In comparison to Doom 3, Quake 4 could at least hold my attention. I've yet to be able to carry through on a completion in D3, yet Raven developed games have been without issue thus far. I did end up playing some Quake 4 online but it was brief and fairly sparse - I'd still go back to QL despite being very out of practice.

I actually hadn't read those posts; I probably skipped them because I hadn't played Quake 4 (or Quake 1!) at that time. Good points, and it's natural we'd see the same two games as Quake 4's major influences.

But you know, I'd still put it above Quake 2. Its weapons were more fun, and despite the levels' faults, I'd rather trod through them again than do figure 8s in Quake 2's monotonous maps.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Not having played either to completion, I thought Heretic II and Die by the Sword were like no other TPP games out there, control-wise. After Max Payne and Devil May Cry, we don't normally expect TPP dudes to respond the way they do in the former two.

[Ed Oscuro]

But you know, I'd still put [Quake 4] above Quake 2. Its weapons were more fun, and despite the levels' faults, I'd rather trod through them again than do figure 8s in Quake 2's monotonous maps.

Hmm, I never really liked Quake 2 either. However, the expansion packs are a little interesting. Even so, it's still too much of a paint-by-numbers game with too little inspiration.

Not having played either to completion, I thought Heretic II and Die by the Sword were like no other TPP games out there, control-wise. After Max Payne and Devil May Cry, we don't normally expect TPP dudes to respond the way they do in the former two.

I think you're right, but could you elaborate on that difference a little?

Actually there were probably a number of third-person games around the time of Heretic II with a control scheme and feel (I can't think of many, but probably things like Darkened Skye and Drakan might be considered somewhat close). Of these, many were primarily melee based, I'd bet.

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's been years, but some of the Courvus' pole-vaulting and forward-rolling seemed to simulate reality rather than illustrate the game designer's fantasies*). Stumbling in Die by the Sword must have caught everyone by surprise at least once. (In the era of ubiquitous twin-stick controllers, the game's begging for a remake/sequel.) Kind of like Doom 3's flashlight, I found those features very game-defining (swordfighting in Thief is another one I didn't see coming).

*) Like, gaining momentum necessary to perform both takes more time and space than I expect of your average video game, or something along those lines.

P.S. So I watched this and it makes little sense sometimes, but the fact you need to perform forward roll for the inability to crawl is hilarious. Reminds me of the problem one chap in The Angels' Share had with his front.

[Edmond Dantes]

Today, I'd say there is probably little reason to play it because Hexen II (and its expansion!) do a similar type of combat better.

Silly as this'll probably sound, the thing I like most about the Heretic/Hexen series is the mythology, not necessarily the gameplay (its easy for me to see the first two games as the high point of the series).

I mean, you have an evil religion that somehow destroyed the entire world... more than one, even... and Heretic II fascinated me just by the mere premise that the Serpent Riders were all dead, so what the hell am I fighting now? Also getting to see Corvus kick assus.

I guess that's a criticism of a lot of Raven Software's stuff - they try to put a potential on non-linear games and they actually were at the forefront of that movement (Shadowcaster, Hexen being the obvious first ones) but if I had to choose, putting in more refined single-player gameplay like Capcom did in its own third-person games would have been more welcome, if I had to choose. Still, they get props for being early advocates of exploration-based gameplay in the modern genres.

I suppose I agree, but especially with preferring a linear-but-refined experience over an open-ended-but-underwhelming one. Probably comes from years of playing JRPGs.

Of course, William Shatner's TekWar is hub-based to the extreme, and only like 10 people remember that game fondly (I would be one, but I only found and played it recently - all except that pesky Matrix level, egh)!

Right now I imagine Morpheus saying "So, William Shatner, will you take the red pill or the blue pill?"

I don't remember there being a "matrix" in the book, but then there were like six novels and I only read the first.

Suddenly, somebody who wanted to kill me was there!

Eh, it's pretty bad actually. It seems like it'll be awesome, and then you realize it's not really. The concept is great, the engine and artwork is classic Raven style - but the combat is atrocious and there's some gaps in the level design.

Still, sometimes the unrefined aspects are the best parts.

And to be honest, there's a sort of "unfinished business" feeling between me and Shadowcaster. I used to have the floppy disk version and, umm, I don't anymore. The CD-ROM edition apparently has two new levels, though that might not necessarily be a good thing in the end.

[Damocles]

Damn Shadowcaster. I have that game, still boxed, in my basement. It was purchased new from Kay-Bees toys when they were clearing out all old software. It was one of the few FPS I could run on my 486DX 50Mhz machine. IIRC I became so frustrated with the overall clunkiness of the game I just flat out stopped playing and never bothered picking it up again.

Watching Youtube videos makes me realize I didn't miss anything.

[Edmond Dantes]

That copy of Shadowcaster you have... Floppy or CD-ROM edition?

If the latter, well, since you're just keeping it in your basement anyway, how much would you part with it for?

[Ed Oscuro]

one MEEELION dollars!

fwiw I bought a new & sealed copy many moons ago off eBay, for like $5. I have a loose disc in a jewel case somewhere, too, I think.

[Damocles]

That copy of Shadowcaster you have... Floppy or CD-ROM edition?

If the latter, well, since you're just keeping it in your basement anyway, how much would you part with it for?

Floppy.

CD-ROM??? Shiiiiiit. I didn't even have a sound card and only had 8megs of RAM. I was lucky to have a game port. When I ran Hexen I had to decrease the play area to the size of a post card and it still looked like a slide show. That's the computer that taught me the word "upgrade".

[Ed Oscuro]

The CD-ROM version adds some nasty semi-animated cutscenes - not really worth bothering with. I didn't know about any new maps, and haven't tried the floppy version for comparison.

Actually DOSbox didn't play nice with the CD-ROM so I didn't get to see the cutscenes for their length.

[Edmond Dantes]

Good thing I won't be using Dosbox, although actually you might ask Kris Asick of the show Ancient DOS Games and he might be able to help you make it work. He has a lot of experience with that kind of stuff apparently (every single video ends by talking about Dosbox settings, including obscure shit like having to set a certain sound emulation to uart mode for Mechwarrior 1 otherwise the game will crash after missions).

Or, you know, you can always sell it to me for a fair price

Actually I need to get back into RPGs... was gonna give the original Might and Magic another go earlier (The NES version of which is one of my favorite RPGs of all time) but... got delayed. By Kitty. Maybe an FPS that blurs the line between FPS and RPG would be worth a look.

Speaking of which, apparently one such game is Amulets and Armor which is actually freeware now. Sad thing is, I actually saw a boxed copy of this back in the day and didn't buy it... now I wish I had if it really is as rare as Asick thinks. If I ever see a physical copy anywhere, I am SO buying it.

[Edmond Dantes]

BUMP for question:

Guys, what's a good way to record footage from a Win98 PC? I'm thinking of doing a Let's Play/Speedrun of Wolfenstein 3D and I'm not keen on my usual "point a webcam at the monitor" method (although ADG has demonstrated that CAN work, I just don't like it).

[lilmanjs]

BUMP for question:

Guys, what's a good way to record footage from a Win98 PC? I'm thinking of doing a Let's Play/Speedrun of Wolfenstein 3D and I'm not keen on my usual "point a webcam at the monitor" method (although ADG has demonstrated that CAN work, I just don't like it).

Why are you not using an SDL exe for making videos. You really should just see if you can't find an SDL exe for whatever version of the game you have.

[Edmond Dantes]

I assume by "SDL" you mean a source port?

[Some-Mist]

so... I used to play hidden:source from about 2006 - 2009 and ended up getting kind of good at the time. I installed not too long ago, but I have to record most times I play because I get accused of hacking lol. competition is scarce now even though there's a crapload of populated servers. been trying to get my buddy back into it so I made a kill/death avi for him which has a few decent phys kills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LhhctHOmbg

you guys might like it :O