Recommended Anime/Manga?

[Skykid]

Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 made sense to me, and I have not yet even read the book. The Monolith sends David Bowman back in time to witness the big bang, the creation of the stars and the planets, and the earth. Life begins and ends with the Monolith. It wasn't hyperspace, it was time travel. But that movie must have stumped so many people that they think that just befuddling people means you're being artistic.

I've read the book, and that's not what happens. But I believe the movie was made for you to interpret in your own way. The book however is very clear about what is happening.

Yes, and it's a great read. Unputdownable.

Stanley Kubrick did leave 2001 open to interpretation, aware that he had two stories running in tandem: one the pure sci-fi (HAL) and one the philosophical.

The book and film were written in tandem, with input from both author and director. The philosophy is taken from Friedrich Nietzsche's writings and theories on Man and The Superman, in which he postulates that because evolution is constant, the end phase would have to be the superman: a being that sheds all physical matter to become pure energy, the universe its oyster.

Unlike Evangelion, which has no semblance of true philosophy because it's a layer cake of themes pretending to have a purpose, 2001 is quite clear in its meaning, although I admit the book fills out the gaps in a big way.

For your info, I'll do a quick summary:

The monolith is the creation of an ancient race who we assume have already reached the final evolutionary phase. It's placed on any planet that is deemed to have the potential for intelligent life.
In the opening, it appears amongst the apes: its purpose to spark the first seed of intelligence in the lifeforms, which it does. It's alien-ness in the environment for just one night is enough to prompt a new thought process in the apes, who then learn to kill, eat and survive.

The placement of the monoliths is strategic. If the first works in kicking off a new evolution on Earth (instead of the extinction of the apes due to a their lack of ability to adapt/kill/eat/survive) then the second, buried under the surface of the moon, will eventually be recovered as a matter of course when beings have evolved to a point where they have the technology to discover it.

In 2001 this happens. The moment the sun's rays hit the uncovered monolith for the first time, it sends a frequency that is traced to the moons of Jupiter - the final piece of the puzzle.
The crewman who makes it there is the 'winner' if you like, in what Arthur C. Clarke called an "intergalactic dimensional trap", and goes through into the monolith and through the stargate. In the book he sees derelict spaceships in there, that he realises aren't ships but people who evolved into ships on the evolutionary path. When he finally reaches that fabricated room, he watches his own body wither and die, as it does in the film, eventually gaining the ultimate prize: the final evolutionary form, or superman/star child. He then looks down on the earth and realises the universe is his to do as he wishes.

Wild, but cool.

It's my all time favourite movie.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For Skykid,

What's your opinion after watching both Gunbuster and it's Diebuster sequel?

I enjoy watching the 2001 flick after having watched a special closed-captioned (CC) 35mm print version of it at a local college back in 1982. Very rarely do mainstream movie theaters in the USA show such first-run "CC" type of big budget films (even though there's a marketbase to cater to both the deaf and hard-of-hearing movie audience these days). Some movie chains are quite accomodating and go out of their way to do whatever it takes to show such a movie so that everyone has a proper chance to watch it -- and because of the ADA (American Disabilites Act) that became law. Bought 2001 on DVD and later on, upgraded to the Blu-Ray version when it became available.

PC Engine Fna X! ^_~

[Skykid]

For Skykid,

What's your opinion after watching both Gunbuster and it's Diebuster sequel?

Glad you asked dude

Gunbuster:

Just finished Gunbuster this morning and damn, that's what it's all about.
I can't believe it took me that long to actually watch something that awesome, I should have been onto that from the beginning (I knew of its existence of course.)

It was terrific. I was totally seduced by the beautiful colour and design work, and that incredible depth of imagination Anime had when they were all about exploring sci-fi.

SPOILERS:

The whole messing with Einstein's theory of relativity and light travel versus time was capitalised on beautifully. I'm not sure that the maths was always accurate, but it didn't matter because it was cemented so well into the storyline. And yes, this had what we would consider today as fairly trite themes: Young girls in skimpy clothing, a smattering of tits and ass, a hero who has to find her inner strength to prevail and become a hero of the ages, and lots of melodrama; yet it was still utterly captivating. All the influences were great (I was loving the product placement), and the SD science lessons were brilliant. I loved the fact that Gainax were bold enough to tell folks there was no episode 5 preview because "we haven't finished it yet", that Noriko has Miyazaki tributes on her wall and that they came up with a warp technology pioneered by prof 'Tanneuser' who developed the 'Tanneuser Gate', lol.

"I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate." - Roy Batty, Blade Runner

And, I'm sure this has been mentioned in the past (but it was a new association for me), but does anyone see the quite obvious Gunbuster influence in MD Advanced Busterhawk Gleylancer?
I didn't really have both pieces of the puzzle until now, but Gleylancer is like Gunbuster the shmup that never was!

Closing: I don't care for the rose tinted glasses argument, yet I'm willing to accept that some of what I find beautiful about Anime was definitely crystallised in the Gunbuster era. That said, on the flip side, taking the 80's aura out of the frame, it's still more fun, with stronger characters, greater heart and a thousand times more artistry than the tin-canned factory pieces they churn out today. Someone show me something as good as Gunbuster that was made in the last decade and I'll eat my head.

EDIT: Getting Diebuster now.

Diebuster:

I just watched the first episode of Diebuster. If there were ever an opportunity to capitalise on the stark contrasts between then and now, it doesn't get much riper than the gulf of difference between 1988's Gunbuster and 2004's spiritual sequel Diebuster.

WTF did I just watch? I went from Gunbuster's beautiful sci-fi worlds, crafted with love, detail and buckets of imagination, to the most bland nondescript representation of a sci-fi 'world' ever - and it turned out in the closing minutes to be Mars. That was Mars?!
There's absolutely no comparison between the gorgeousness of Gunbuster's original cel work and this soulless Flash imposter - the two are simply a million miles apart and it's got nothing to do with rose tinted preferences.

And what happened to all of the character in the characters? This episode had practically no script or point. Everything feels haphazard and stuffed into bursts of quick rambling dialogue. As in Gunbuster, the lead in this is a klutz, but the way in which she's portrayed is completely different. She just screams a lot, has little to no unique qualities or distinctions and her tomfoolery seems to be the most integral factor in the show. The opening seconds featuring her punching her dog and going on to camp up what I was expecting to be an OVA with a semi-serious demeanour, like its predecessor. Why is all the bad comedy necessary? Can't kids watch Anime anymore unless it has bouts of hyperactive slapstick every two seconds, or, like in this opener, a lecherous old man trying to peer up a young girls skirt?

The fight at the end was rubbish. There was no build up, no presence and no drama. The monster looked shit, like a big bumble bee, and the Buster was flipping CG?! Sacrilege!

In the last few moments of the show, our 'hero' turned out to be able to breathe in the vacuum of space... before ripping her tits out for no apparent reason and then fly kicking the monster into a million pieces without the aid of any weaponry, and in the vacuum of space. Whu?!
Even if there's an explanation for that, I'm not sure I want to hear it tbh.

I'm really not compelled to watch any more of this rather troubling show for fear it will taint the fond memories I now harbour of the original series. Has anyone seen this Diebuster before, and is it famous for having a real shit opening and then getting much much better?

If not, I'm deleting it.

Further:

In episode one at least, Nono most certainly doesn't have as much character as Noriko. Character is built not just by a series of unique attributes, but their behaviour and the narrative that surrounds them. By the end of Gunbuster episode 1, we know the history of Noriko's father, his fate, and the aspirations she had since childhood to follow him into space. We know she's an outcast because the girls in the school believe she's doted on by the teachers because of favouritism. She's an underdog and perfectly aware of her lack of natural ability to pilot a mech, which is why she looks up to Onee-sama as an inspiration. Despite her klutziness, the audience is aware she has a heart of gold through her friendship with Kimiko, and her reaction to being picked to join Onee-sama in space (she wants the coach to change his mind.) In the end she comes full circle, training hard to live up to the task, and takes on a fight with the school bully, and wins by turning off her monitor (star wars style) and going with her heart and instinct. Its then that we're aware of her actual potential as a pilot, even though it takes until the end of the show to really come to fruition.

Comparitively, Nono is a totally vapid nothing, swanning about air-headedly with nothing but a childish and incessant pining to go into space, who does little except piss about in a maid uniform and repeat her wish to herself ad-infinitum.

There is no comparison. One is full of passion and one is made of plastic.

And response:

...I revisited Diebuster by watching the whole thing on Youtube...

Goddamnit. As much as I hate to admit it, as much as it pains me to admit it, the more I watched, the more Skykid's points started to make complete sense. His opinions lingered in the back of my head and haunted me as I slowly succumbed to their meaning. I didn't want that to be the case, but I'll say it. Skykid, you were spot on. After the insight I have now from seeing Gunbuster, and no longer going merely on memory of Diebuster alone, I can confidently say that the show falls into the average category, if even that. And after witnessing the battles once more, there is a sharp contrast between both OVAs. The only comparisons that should be made are merely references in the form of fan service (the infamous Gunbuster tracksuit on Lac'C during ep. 6, etc.) to it's much better predecessor. The first show was infinitely more riveting, and the battles were much more intense.

And the battles themselves, Jesus Christ. They were nowhere near as gripping as I remember them to be. They looked so pathetically carried out this time. The explosions no longer gripped my emotions like they used to. The crying of the main character is like nails on a chalkboard which I am NOT willing to look past. Skykid was so spot on it's crazy (Thanks for tearing my pleasant memories of the show into shreds, jackass! )

Aaaand lastly, we arrive at my final evaluation of the aesthetics. While at certain shots they can be somewhat pleasing to the eye, these moments comprise of (roughly) 13% of the show. By and large, a revision to one of the best anime shows I've ever seen does not deserve necromancy only to be slapped in the face and spat on. I don't think the Diebuster team were very aware of what old, true fans wanted (and if they did, they just didn't care). The characters (now that I've seen them in motion again for the first time in a long time) looked paler, trashier, and soulless. It should be very apparent now that Gainax had a different, much younger target audience in mind: those who have never seen, and have no fucking clue what "Gunbuster" is.

The opening song is complete ass. Same with the wonderfully gay ending theme.

There's just nothing worth salvaging, here. Saved me the trouble of buying the damn series on Ebay again, so gracias.

I don't normally submit to the opinions of another person this easily, but what I saw, heard, and felt were so correlative with what was said in this thread against the show it's crazy.

Noriko > Nono all the way.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I liked the original ending episodes of Evangelion and I consider End's alleged ultimacy as more of a joke - nothing more definite or solidified about it in my book. Not sure where other folks get their ideas of "what happened", but there they go.
Just watched Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku and it's easily the most commendable anime I've seen since Haibane Renmei.

[Siren2011]

Haibane Renmei

The box of volume 1 grabbed my interest when I walked by it at a bookstore. The visual style reminds me of Serial Experiments Lain, which I enjoyed what little I've seen of it.

[xbl0x180]

I just did a 2-day anime marathon and watched all 26 episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion + End of Evangelion (for the first time.)

Not sure if my brain is meant to feel this fried.

Before I introduce my take on it, I'm curious about some of the other points that were touched on in relation to this series. I've heard several people mention that it is effectively responsible for the decline in anime thereafter.
If someone could elaborate a little more on this I'd be interested to hear about it.

I could not get past 8 episodes of this crap. I'm not very good with specifics when asked to explain why I know something sucks; it just does. Personally, the plot element of "the fate of the world lies on a group of whiny and weird kids with nothing remarkable about them" seems way too far-fetched to take in. This would've worked if the kids had been experimental cases with telekinetic and/or ESP [super]powers and such (i.e., like those blue kids in Akira). I can't f***ing stand watching a show about kids in war situations. It's almost as bad as the now-cliche little girls doing cute things and harem themes in modern animu.

Also, the director of the show confused s...l...o...w... and uneventful pacing for something that is supposed to create "suspense" and evoke "curiosity," or that the audience, somehow, becomes emotionally invested in the characters. This technique failed. It wasn't dramatic, it wasn't funny, it wasn't action-packed, it wasn't much of anything. After 8 episodes, the whole of Earth could've gone up in a mushroom cloud and I could've walked away right after, satisfied with that ending.

Okay, so the plot isn't so hot. How about the character designs? If there's something I can try to fall back on whenever I see a weak show is the quality of the designs - and they are godawful ugly. I don't see how people can claim these are "good" by any stretch of the word. They're too simplistic and lack distinctive features, except for their eyes are too far apart and make them look like goats.




The mechas aren't that great either. Just about the only things that I recall being actually good were the smoothness of the animation and the intro theme song. However, these do not a good show make...




These qualities combined ensured I wouldn't be wasting any more money and time on it.

[Siren2011]

They're too simplistic and lack distinctive features

I can see the goat thing as being valid, but this is just in bad taste from where I'm standing. Show me what you would consider character design with inspired and distinctive features.

FYI, this



is a great example of simplistic crap.



^This is not. I mean shit, dude. How much more detail do you need?

Also, the director of the show confused s...l...o...w... and uneventful pacing for something that is supposed to create "suspense" and evoke "curiosity," or that the audience, somehow, becomes emotionally invested in the characters. This technique failed. It wasn't dramatic, it wasn't funny, it wasn't action-packed, it wasn't much of anything. After 8 episodes, the whole of Earth could've gone up in a mushroom cloud and I could've walked away right after, satisfied with that ending.

There are indeed parts of the show that are "slow", but I totally disagree about the so-called "lack of suspense." Nearly every angel fight was unique and engrossing (especially the one where SPOILER!!! Unit 1 goes berserk and eats the angel, revealing his true, lilithian/adam form. The audience soon finds out that the Eva series was created by using the fused cells of Yui Ikari and parts of lilith from terminal dogma. As for the much pimped conceptual tripe about "the souls of the dead mothers of each pilot reside in their respective evangelions," I just shake my head.).

I was admittedly emotionally invested with Misato Katsuragi as well as Ryoji Kaji. Rei Ayanami has an undeniable enigmatic aura about her, and the revelation of her origins was quite a shocker.

Personally, the plot element of "the fate of the world lies on a group of whiny and weird kids with nothing remarkable about them" seems way too far-fetched to take in

Very true. If they had bothered to explain why this age preference was made, then it would make sense. It was an excuse to use children as humanity's trump card against the angels. With all of that time Gainax spent creating a complex world surrounding the show, they could have made more meaningful plot explanations instead of that deus ex machina/smoke and mirrors artfaggotry (the end of Berserk also suffers from this, unfortunately). Regardless of the sum of its major and minor shortcomings, the show still ranks above decent in my book.

[drauch]

Meh, I like how they didn't explain the reasoning behind the age. I enjoy room for interpretation. What about artsy-fartsy ending in Berserk? I don't remember that happening at all.

[drauch]

1. Making the characters emo twerps who can't get along with each other, ever.[/i]

Aren't they like, 13 and essentially forced to fight in mechs to save the world? Seems reasonable to me to be angsty.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Aren't they like, 13 and essentially forced to fight in mechs to save the world? Seems reasonable to me to be angsty.

Aye, things are hectic at that point of human being's development for just about everybody. I find amusing how people who can stand Gundam characters have a beef with Evangelion characters, but it's actually saddening how little respect our civilisation has for children and elders alike.

[Siren2011]

I enjoy room for interpretation.

As do I. That's what made Inception and Memento so great (off topic). But when a show/movie/etc gives you half a page worth of questions without answers, even after you've re-watched each episode four times looking for clarification, it's the fault of the director and/or screenplay writer.

SPOILERZ!

As for Berserk, near the end Griffith was saved by Guts and company from execution. From the very first episode, there were hints that the world Berserk is set in is not just inhibited by normal human beings. That in itself is interesting, as was the epic fight with that demon (I forgot his name).

However, killing off every main character and introducing the very hard to swallow "Griffith sold his soul to immortal demons" shit at the very end of the fucking anime, with no hint of a next season even to this day to explain what happened afterwards, is disrespectful to the intelligent portion of the audience. Instantaneously, everyone was transported to a surrealist world of terror. There was no "we didn't have enough money to produce a great last ep" excuse like Gainax did (though I still think they could have done a better job with episodes 25 and 26 of Eva). They were just lazy.

I shit you not, the last few frames of animation were Guts watching his former best friend rape his girlfriend...roll credits, the end...how can anyone be satisfied with an ending like that to a story as respectable as Berserk?

[drauch]

-TO SIREN. Maybe spoilers. Don't read if you haven't read/watched BERSERK-



Well, the manga isn't finished, and that was the end of the arc, so really, there wasn't much more they could do. Also, it is constantly hinted that Griffith will do anything to get his dream, so the fact that he would make those choices (especially after Guts steered him away from his dreams) makes plenty of sense, at least to me. I don't know if you read manga or not, but the manga is a ton better and explores these themes even more. Oh, and the rape sequence is much worse.

[xbl0x180]

They're too simplistic and lack distinctive features

I can see the goat thing as being valid, but this is just in bad taste from where I'm standing. Show me what you would consider character design with inspired and distinctive features.

You guys just finished discussing the great attributes of Top Wo Nerae a coupla pages back in this topic. GAINAX really took off sky-high with Mikimoto Haruhiko's designs. Virtually any show with his designs has ended up being a classic with very few exceptions (Macross II and Macross 7 being two that come to mind).

Some anime and manga can have distinguishing features such as creative/inventive/captivating story, interesting designs, memorable music... something, anything. On character designs for animation, I'd say if you see anything by Otomo Katsuhiro, you will not only immediately recognise it, but it will also look great. Same goes for Miyazaki Hayao, Kawajiri Yoshiaki, Oshii Mamoru, Dezaki Osamu right down to more independent productions by Hirano Toshihiro, Urushihara Satoshi, Yoshimoto Kinji, and Umetsu Yasuomi. For manga and illustrations, it's an even bigger group. Think about it, we have guys and gals like Amano Yoshitaka, Nagano Mamoru, CLAMP, Sorayama Hajime, U-Jin, Shirow Masamune, Toriyama Akira, Buronson, Teresawa Buichi, Sonoda Ken'ichi, Matsumoto Reiji, Nagai Go, Igarashi Yumiko, Ikeda Ryoko, Kakinouchi Narumi, etc., etc. etc. I could go on listing into another page. Evangelion's designs wouldn't rank on any list, other than a list of "plain, ugly-looking cartoons."

[drauch]

We really need to keep this thread going, by the way. Thanks to someone a few pages back I've become obsessed with the Kimagure Orange Road anime, and I also finally got inspired and found the Space Adventure Cobra series. It's a shame this stuff is OOP, and so many great things still haven't got released for English audiences. I find it criminal that someone as influential as Go Nagai has hardly anything released in the states...except "new" Cutie Honey, which is horribly mediocre compared to the original (still hot, though).

[xbl0x180]

We really need to keep this thread going, by the way. Thanks to someone a few pages back I've become obsessed with the Kimagure Orange Road anime, and I also finally got inspired and found the Space Adventure Cobra series. It's a shame this stuff is OOP, and so many great things still haven't got released for English audiences. I find it criminal that someone as influential as Go Nagai has hardly anything released in the states...except "new" Cutie Honey, which is horribly mediocre compared to the original (still hot, though).

Don't forget the English dub of Mazinger Z called Tranzor Z back in the 70s and early 80s. AD Vision also brought Mazinkaiser. U.S. Renditions and Manga Video both released Devilman and the indie comic publisher Verotik released a colourised manga. Violence Jack was released by The Right Stuf, Intl., Kama Sutra was released by Kitty Video, and Kekko Kamen was released by SoftCel Pictures (or was it AD Vision?). I forget who released Shuten Doji (I think it was also AD Vision!). Shin Cutey Honey... it's a guilty pleasure. I loved it when it was first released on videocassette (I still have them) and I also have some old dvds (disc 1 is scratched from the times I've lent it out). This title was lampooned back in the late 80s/early 90s in one of those bizarre "furry" comics called "Cutey Bunny"

[BIL]

Instantaneously, everyone was transported to a surrealist world of terror. There was no "we didn't have enough money to produce a great last ep" excuse like Gainax did (though I still think they could have done a better job with episodes 25 and 26 of Eva). They were just lazy.

Ideally, the Berserk anime should've ended just a couple manga chapters further on, which would've brought the series full circle up to that point (the last episode's post-credits scene made some attempt to do this). And even then, the anime omits both an early manga scene which extensively portrays a nightmarish event foreshadowing the final episode's, and a central character without whom the story would simply not continue beyond Guts getting his arm chomped.

So yeah - anime is missing lots of critical stuff, was never going to end well by comparison, read the manga for satisfaction. (assuming you haven't!) I'm only a casual anime/manga fan, but the first several volumes of Berserk up until the end of the Golden Age flashback arc get my unreserved recommendation, and the rest to date is quite good too if never quite as consistently intense.

[Skykid]

I enjoy room for interpretation.

As do I. That's what made Inception and Memento so great (off topic). But when a show/movie/etc gives you half a page worth of questions without answers, even after you've re-watched each episode four times looking for clarification, it's the fault of the director and/or screenplay writer.

Absolutely true.

I could not get past 8 episodes of this crap. I'm not very good with specifics when asked to explain why I know something sucks; it just does. Personally, the plot element of "the fate of the world lies on a group of whiny and weird kids with nothing remarkable about them" seems way too far-fetched to take in. This would've worked if the kids had been experimental cases with telekinetic and/or ESP [super]powers and such (i.e., like those blue kids in Akira). I can't f***ing stand watching a show about kids in war situations. It's almost as bad as the now-cliche little girls doing cute things and harem themes in modern animu.

Also, the director of the show confused s...l...o...w... and uneventful pacing for something that is supposed to create "suspense" and evoke "curiosity," or that the audience, somehow, becomes emotionally invested in the characters. This technique failed. It wasn't dramatic, it wasn't funny, it wasn't action-packed, it wasn't much of anything. After 8 episodes, the whole of Earth could've gone up in a mushroom cloud and I could've walked away right after, satisfied with that ending.

Okay, so the plot isn't so hot. How about the character designs? If there's something I can try to fall back on whenever I see a weak show is the quality of the designs - and they are godawful ugly. I don't see how people can claim these are "good" by any stretch of the word. They're too simplistic and lack distinctive features, except for their eyes are too far apart and make them look like goats.

The mechas aren't that great either. Just about the only things that I recall being actually good were the smoothness of the animation and the intro theme song. However, these do not a good show make...

These qualities combined ensured I wouldn't be wasting any more money and time on it.

Honestly, I can't blame you for not getting past episode 8. Bar the ever present apocalyptic bleakness, very little has happened up to that point - it really is a very slow burner.

However, in the show's defence it's got plenty of positive qualities. I liked the agility of the Eva's compared to regular giant robots, it made the battle sequences refreshing and dynamic. I disagree that the character designs are without value but each to their own, I find most modern anime designs bland even compared to Evangelion (see Diebuster.)

If you go the distance the show gets eerier and eerier, definitely getting its hooks in and in moments swallowing you up almost completely. While the backstory doesn't really start unfolding until around episode 18, the character development is intriguing up until that point and you're constantly given something new to chew on.

My only fault with the show is, as posted on the previous page's review, it has no ending and no definite direction. What could have been excellent turned out to be a whimsical bunch of nonsense littered with plot holes and a total artfag excuse for a finale that offers little else except incoherency. Thanks Anno.

I would blame the director more if I didn't accept that he's Japanese, and Japanese directors tend to do crap like this all the time.

It would be nice if he knew what the show's ending meant at least, but he clearly hasn't got a clue either.

[xbl0x180]

Aren't they like, 13 and essentially forced to fight in mechs to save the world? Seems reasonable to me to be angsty.

Aye, things are hectic at that point of human being's development for just about everybody. I find amusing how people who can stand Gundam characters have a beef with Evangelion characters, but it's actually saddening how little respect our civilisation has for children and elders alike.

That's because the characters in the original Gundam, its movies, as well as the oav series Stardust Memory and War In The Pocket, are hardened and are either already matured or will learn from experiencing civil and colonial/interplanetary wars. It's like most war settings: there are military types of all ranks involved, political leaders, and civilians. The premise itself is compelling right off the bat. I can actually see this world without having to suspend any kind of belief. Evangina wasn't like that at all. The audience is supposed to just accept the notion that "the fate of the world, all the world's political and military efforts, all of their combined beliefs and philosophies, all their resources rest on a few goat-looking emu kids." I don't see how this can be construed as "sad" or "lack of respect" just because the premise of the story blows.

I enjoy room for interpretation.

As do I. That's what made Inception and Memento so great (off topic). But when a show/movie/etc gives you half a page worth of questions without answers, even after you've re-watched each episode four times looking for clarification, it's the fault of the director and/or screenplay writer.

Absolutely true.

I could not get past 8 episodes of this crap. I'm not very good with specifics when asked to explain why I know something sucks; it just does. Personally, the plot element of "the fate of the world lies on a group of whiny and weird kids with nothing remarkable about them" seems way too far-fetched to take in. This would've worked if the kids had been experimental cases with telekinetic and/or ESP [super]powers and such (i.e., like those blue kids in Akira). I can't f***ing stand watching a show about kids in war situations. It's almost as bad as the now-cliche little girls doing cute things and harem themes in modern animu.

Also, the director of the show confused s...l...o...w... and uneventful pacing for something that is supposed to create "suspense" and evoke "curiosity," or that the audience, somehow, becomes emotionally invested in the characters. This technique failed. It wasn't dramatic, it wasn't funny, it wasn't action-packed, it wasn't much of anything. After 8 episodes, the whole of Earth could've gone up in a mushroom cloud and I could've walked away right after, satisfied with that ending.

Okay, so the plot isn't so hot. How about the character designs? If there's something I can try to fall back on whenever I see a weak show is the quality of the designs - and they are godawful ugly. I don't see how people can claim these are "good" by any stretch of the word. They're too simplistic and lack distinctive features, except for their eyes are too far apart and make them look like goats.

The mechas aren't that great either. Just about the only things that I recall being actually good were the smoothness of the animation and the intro theme song. However, these do not a good show make...

These qualities combined ensured I wouldn't be wasting any more money and time on it.

Honestly, I can't blame you for not getting past episode 8. Bar the ever present apocalyptic bleakness, very little has happened up to that point - it really is a very slow burner.

However, in the show's defence it's got plenty of positive qualities. I liked the agility of the Eva's compared to regular giant robots, it made the battle sequences refreshing and dynamic. I disagree that the character designs are without value but each to their own, I find most modern anime designs bland even compared to Evangelion (see Diebuster.)

If you go the distance the show gets eerier and eerier, definitely getting its hooks in and in moments swallowing you up almost completely. While the backstory doesn't really start unfolding until around episode 18, the character development is intriguing up until that point and you're constantly given something new to chew on.

My only fault with the show is, as posted on the previous page's review, it has no ending and no definite direction. What could have been excellent turned out to be a whimsical bunch of nonsense littered with plot holes and a total artfag excuse for a finale that offers little else except incoherency. Thanks Anno.

I would blame the director more if I didn't accept that he's Japanese, and Japanese directors tend to do crap like this all the time.

It would be nice if he knew what the show's ending meant at least, but he clearly hasn't got a clue either.

I'd probably be more accepting of an inconclusive or bizarre ending if other things were more fitting. There's no way I'm going to waste more time for 10 episodes to transpire in order to see something that should've taken place at the beginning of the show. To say that today's animu sucks doesn't make this show any better. I'm probably a little more surprised by the fanaticism involved with this particular programme, which is why what I say about it may come off as blunt. If people really want to see what GAINAX is truly capable of in terms of story, animation, designs, music, voice acting, and anything pertaining not only to the world of animation, but of film-making in general, then they should see "The Wings Of Honneamise."

[Skykid]

I'd probably be more accepting of an inconclusive or bizarre ending if other things were more fitting. There's no way I'm going to waste more time for 10 episodes to transpire in order to see something that should've taken place at the beginning of the show. To say that today's animu sucks doesn't make this show any better. I'm probably a little more surprised by the fanaticism involved with this particular programme, which is why what I say about it may come off as blunt. If people really want to see what GAINAX is truly capable of in terms of story, animation, designs, music, voice acting, and anything pertaining not only to the world of animation, but of film-making in general, then they should see "The Wings Of Honneamise."

The fanaticism is a mystery until you appreciate the majority of the world is full of pig shit thick individuals who think Jason Derulo is a talented 'artist' and Justin Bieber deserves life over death.

It's an explanation that can be applied to most similar scenarios.

That said, Evangelion is a good show. I'm not shitting you.
Although I sympathise with the fact the first 8 episodes didn't grab you, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't merit in the series as a whole (bar the ending/s). It's quite a journey when all is said and done, and it exhibits enough individuality to make it a worthy watch.

Is it the greatest thing ever? Of course not. It's not fine art, just fine anime.

[greg]

The crewman who makes it there is the 'winner' if you like, in what Arthur C. Clarke called an "intergalactic dimensional trap", and goes through into the monolith and through the stargate. In the book he sees derelict spaceships in there, that he realises aren't ships but people who evolved into ships on the evolutionary path. When he finally reaches that fabricated room, he watches his own body wither and die, as it does in the film, eventually gaining the ultimate prize: the final evolutionary form, or superman/star child. He then looks down on the earth and realises the universe is his to do as he wishes.

Well, I understood the part about David Bowman becoming the "star baby" and becoming one with the universe, and this transcending becomes rather obvious in the sequel, 2010 (in which technology took a huge backstep.... check out how huge those monitors are!) It just seemed to me that the monolith transported him back into time to observe the creation of the universe and the creation of Earth, to illustrate that the monolith is the alpha and omega of creation or something. Then again, I've only seen the movie. I recently bought the book. I tried reading this book from the library when I was in the 5th grade, and got bogged down in the apes part. I made the mistake of mentioning to my mom that I was having trouble getting through the book, so she and my English teacher started forcing me to read books that were "on my age level" and were insulting to my intelligence. My love for reading nearly vanished after that and remained dormant for many years.

I find amusing how people who can stand Gundam characters have a beef with Evangelion characters, but it's actually saddening how little respect our civilisation has for children and elders alike.

OK, UC Gundam had a reason why Amuro and other kids were fighting. The war was killing too many young soldiers in the One Year War, and the colonies were reduced to old people and children. Remember, this is the war in which Zeon hijacked an entire space colony and put a hole in the continent of Australia with it, plus some other places if I'm not mistaken. Amuro and other young teenagers are conscripted as they are evacuated from a colony, and they have no choice but to fight. Amuro is angsty, but he matures in the process. By Zeta, he's a competent young man. Shinji never seems to grow up. All he ever does is feel sorry for himself the entire time.

But to be fair, isn't the reason why young kids are chosen to be pilots is because the robots' brains were taken from living women? Shinji's Eva used to be his own mom. No wait, that doesn't explain anything. Rei's Eva used to be the woman who hated her, so what sort of symbiotic relationship is there? It even tried to kill Gendo. They never explain where Asuka's Eva came from. If they'd stuck to a "Okay, we need to turn a kid's mom into a robot so that they can link with the robot" premise, it would've made sense to have young kids. But since this seems to be random in the end, anybody could've been a pilot, it seems.

Although I sympathise with the fact the first 8 episodes didn't grab you, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't merit in the series as a whole (bar the ending/s).

I thought the first eight episodes of Eva were great. It wasn't until it started getting psychotic is when I really got turned off. I think the first milestone of the psychotic stuff is when Shinji's Eva starts trying to eat that angel. Holy crap, that was weird. Now too many anime tries to be weird. No, we can't be bothered to imagine different worlds and cultures. No, we just need to make our stories f'ed up.

[Skykid]

I think the first milestone of the psychotic stuff is when Shinji's Eva starts trying to eat that angel.

That's like, right near the end dude.

Your interpretation of 2001 is perfectly fair btw, nothing wrong with that. It ultimately leads to the same conclusion anyway, and it's meant to be open to interpretation so I wouldn't even say Arthur C. Clarke's novel is gospel (not with Kubrick directing anyhow, he's his own god.)

That said, read that book, you'll love it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Amuro is angsty, but he matures in the process. By Zeta, he's a competent young man.

What makes me wince isn't juvenility of the protagonists, but the military mindset of prety much everybody. I have a hard time getting into stories of such types. As if my organism produced antibodies against those antics. Watched 0080: War in the Pocket ((left me indifferent), Zeta and a fair chunk of SEED. How anybody finds Zeta and SEED characters easier to put up with than Evangelion characters is beyond me. I don't get what's the big deal about James Bond either. Discipilne is not cool.

Shinji never seems to grow up.

He's still 14 or so.

All he ever does is feel sorry for himself the entire time.

Gundam kids don't?

[Randorama]

But to be fair, isn't the reason why young kids are chosen to be pilots is because the robots' brains were taken from living women? Shinji's Eva used to be his own mom. No wait, that doesn't explain anything. Rei's Eva used to be the woman who hated her, so what sort of symbiotic relationship is there? It even tried to kill Gendo. They never explain where Asuka's Eva came from. If they'd stuck to a "Okay, we need to turn a kid's mom into a robot so that they can link with the robot" premise, it would've made sense to have young kids. But since this seems to be random in the end, anybody could've been a pilot, it seems..

Well:

the Evas 00, 02, 03 are clones of Adam mingled with a woman's DNA. They imply (never explain) that the procedure dissolves the donator's body. Shinji's mother donated her body to form Eva 01, which was mingled with Lilith's DNA (Lilith is the thing crucified in the lower levels). At the same time, it is implied that Rei is the human-like clone of Shinji's mother, with Lilith's DNA. Gendo has a vat of clones in the lower levels, too.

When Rei dies in episode 19 or 20, another clone awakens and retains the memory that Gendo was behind her previous 'death'. That's why Rei rebels against Gendo in 'the end of evangelion'. Asuka's Eva is also based on the same combination of human and 'angel', Asuka's mother sacrificed for it. Asuka realizes this fact during 'the end of evangelion', just before the final battle against the mass-produced evas.

Kaworu (the boy with white hair) is instead a clone of Adam in human form. Consequently he can synchronize with all evas, as shown in episode 24.

Also, although they're called 'angels', the creatures in the series are basically something else. In some book of the Hebrew bible which should not be in western version, a genealogy of creatures that represent attempts at life creation by God are given. If I remember well, God destroys them once he decides to create the first man and Woman, Adam and Lilith. The 'angels' are based on these creatures, which however should not be the standard 'angels' of Christian lore. Life forms on Earth are the seed of the 'black angel', Lilith. Lilith, which, in the legend, gave birth to 'demons', lilim, by escaping from Adam and fornicating with other creatures.

Since we're here: somewhere NOT in the anime (in a spin-off comic or videogame...), it is clarified that the struggle on Earth illustrated in the series is caused by a 'cosmic mistake'. An unkown race spent their time 'seeding' planets with 'moons', billions of years before the series' plot. White moons (the cave in Antartica) seeded 'angels', Black moons (the geo-front in neo-Tokyo) seeded 'lilim' via a single Black angel. Only one type was programmed to land a single planet, but on Earth a mistake occurred, and both moons were seeded.

The first impact was the first encounter between Adam and Lilith, which resulted in the retreat of Adam and the other 'angels' in Antartica; and the victory of Lilith, who spawned life on Earth. The second impact was caused by SEELE. SEELE possessed some old profecies which talked about the second coming of Adam, the attack of the 'angels', and the coming of 'instrumentality'. To fight the 'angels', SEELE tried to retrieve Adam's body and turn it into a cocoon, with the intent of cloning Adam and prepare a weapon for the incoming armageddon. The program backfired, as the second impact killed half of the Earth's population and caused mass disasters, and awakened the 'angels'. Basically, SEELE caused the events that they wanted to get ready against.

The third impact is depicted in 'the end of Evangelion'. SEELE's plan was to destroy all angels and trigger the merging of all life forms into a sea of LCL, which is ultimately fullfilled by Rei, whereas Gendo wanted to become the merged Rei/Kaworu being (roughly equivalent to the biblical 'Adam Kadmon') and take control of the third impact (in a sense, become 'god'). Note that the third impact is triggered by having Shinji to 'reject others', and thus project a giant AT-field that cancels life-forms around the world.

[Skykid]

But to be fair, isn't the reason why young kids are chosen to be pilots is because the robots' brains were taken from living women? Shinji's Eva used to be his own mom. No wait, that doesn't explain anything. Rei's Eva used to be the woman who hated her, so what sort of symbiotic relationship is there? It even tried to kill Gendo. They never explain where Asuka's Eva came from. If they'd stuck to a "Okay, we need to turn a kid's mom into a robot so that they can link with the robot" premise, it would've made sense to have young kids. But since this seems to be random in the end, anybody could've been a pilot, it seems..

Well:

the Evas 00, 02, 03 are clones of Adam mingled with a woman's DNA. They imply (never explain) that the procedure dissolves the donator's body. Shinji's mother donated her body to form Eva 01, which was mingled with Lilith's DNA (Lilith is the thing crucified in the lower levels). At the same time, it is implied that Rei is the human-like clone of Shinji's mother, with Lilith's DNA. Gendo has a vat of clones in the lower levels, too.

When Rei dies in episode 19 or 20, another clone awakens and retains the memory that Gendo was behind her previous 'death'. That's why Rei rebels against Gendo in 'the end of evangelion'. Asuka's Eva is also based on the same combination of human and 'angel', Asuka's mother sacrificed for it. Asuka realizes this fact during 'the end of evangelion', just before the final battle against the mass-produced evas.

Kaworu (the boy with white hair) is instead a clone of Adam in human form. Consequently he can synchronize with all evas, as shown in episode 24.

Also, although they're called 'angels', the creatures in the series are basically something else. In some book of the Hebrew bible which should not be in western version, a genealogy of creatures that represent attempts at life creation by God are given. If I remember well, God destroys them once he decides to create the first man and Woman, Adam and Lilith. The 'angels' are based on these creatures, which however should not be the standard 'angels' of Christian lore. Life forms on Earth are the seed of the 'black angel', Lilith. Lilith, which, in the legend, gave birth to 'demons', lilim, by escaping from Adam and fornicating with other creatures.

Since we're here: somewhere NOT in the anime (in a spin-off comic or videogame...), it is clarified that the struggle on Earth illustrated in the series is caused by a 'cosmic mistake'. An unkown race spent their time 'seeding' planets with 'moons', billions of years before the series' plot. White moons (the cave in Antartica) seeded 'angels', Black moons (the geo-front in neo-Tokyo) seeded 'lilim' via a single Black angel. Only one type was programmed to land a single planet, but on Earth a mistake occurred, and both moons were seeded.

The first impact was the first encounter between Adam and Lilith, which resulted in the retreat of Adam and the other 'angels' in Antartica; and the victory of Lilith, who spawned life on Earth. The second impact was caused by SEELE. SEELE possessed some old profecies which talked about the second coming of Adam, the attack of the 'angels', and the coming of 'instrumentality'. To fight the 'angels', SEELE tried to retrieve Adam's body and turn it into a cocoon, with the intent of cloning Adam and prepare a weapon for the incoming armageddon. The program backfired, as the second impact killed half of the Earth's population and caused mass disasters, and awakened the 'angels'. Basically, SEELE caused the events that they wanted to get ready against.

The third impact is depicted in 'the end of Evangelion'. SEELE's plan was to destroy all angels and trigger the merging of all life forms into a sea of LCL, which is ultimately fullfilled by Rei, whereas Gendo wanted to become the merged Rei/Kaworu being (roughly equivalent to the biblical 'Adam Kadmon') and take control of the third impact (in a sense, become 'god'). Note that the third impact is triggered by having Shinji to 'reject others', and thus project a giant AT-field that cancels life-forms around the world.

Incredibly useful, you should edit the wiki.

Problem is that doesn't change the fact that the plot is vomit-inducingly convoluted. While I appreciate your detailing of the backstory, I still consider the lack of any proper explanation surrounding these points within the anime is an indefensible fault.

And while it sounds credible when you pull a hundred pieces of the puzzle into some kind of continuum, it's still on the surface a Japanese dude ripping sections from biblical mythology and scrappily supplanting them on an overblown anime, right?

[Siren2011]

Although I sympathise with the fact the first 8 episodes didn't grab you, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't merit in the series as a whole (bar the ending/s). It's quite a journey when all is said and done, and it exhibits enough individuality to make it a worthy watch.

Is it the greatest thing ever? Of course not. It's not fine art, just fine anime.

^ High brow criticism. I couldn't have put it better myself. If anything, Anno's exploration of suffering and interpersonal misunderstanding as an integral part of the human condition is more of a reason to see this show than the large scale mecca pr0n.

It would be nice if he knew what the show's ending meant at least, but he (Anno) clearly hasn't got a clue either.

I too find this amusing. And I think I know where this behavior is rooted.

It's a little known fact among anime enthusiasts that he feels a bit insecure about more or less all of his work, even though without his accomplished directing skills, Gunbuster, Nadia, et. all would have not been possible. Why he feels this way must have something to do with his upbringing. He has said in interviews that Shinji is modeled after himself during a time of his complete dissatisfaction with the world --a time which, shortly afterward, he began Project Eva with Studio Gainax. (lol)

His nihilistic attitude towards life, particularly in the deeply pessimistic song he wrote for End of Eva's apocalypse, is so hope-crushing, so beckoning of death, that it is actually interesting rather than repulsive --much like driving by a catastrophic train accident grabs your attention to such a degree, that it is seemingly impossible to look away.

Personally, I think that if Eva did not change into a much darker theme halfway through, it wouldn't have been half as popular as it is today. Which is surprising, because the masses typically believe:

Jason Derulo is a talented 'artist' and Justin Bieber deserves life over death.

This is one of those rare cases (as with Nolan's The Dark Knight) where "popular" is not synonymous with shit. The problem with the masses is, they are quick to equalize the merits of The Dark Night and excruciatingly boring, uninspired tripe like James Cameron's Avatar. Genuine criticism is beyond them, which is why they are so helplessly stupid. But that's another subject altogether...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For Randorama,

Thanks for explaining in greater detail, the background story/events regarding Evangelion. That is quite some heady stuff to digest but it all makes sense now regarding the events that take place in the End of Evangelion movie. With all that widespread death in the end, the world begins anew once again with just two kids to start/populate the human race all over again.

As for the LCL, what does it stand for in unabbreviated form and why is it necessary to use it when such an Eva pilot gets inside the entry plug suit interface?

So about the events that take place in the Evangelion HD remixes, do the same background stories apply to those newer versions as well? They seem to branch off into another alternative timeline of events.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Randorama]

Ok, Just to be sure: this stuff is either implied in the anime or explained somewhere else, so Gainax deserve some serious criticism for their lack of proper presentation of the plot ( "indefensible fault", indeed!). And yeah, it mixes in a very, very chaotic way a lot of different and unrelated things, with a coat of author's depression. Anno was in therapy because of various life problems, including the giant budget failure that was Honnemaise, and imprinted his very unbalanced mental status on the whole series.

I confess that I saw Evangelion a second time as an adult, in a similarly dark period of my life, and it worringly resonated with my mood, at the time: I appreciated it more, while the first time, at 15, it left me cold. I guess that for a lot of people struggling with life, it could struck a chord or two, hence the huge success that it had when it was moved to a seinen time slot. I don't think that most of its success comes from being a very well crafted anime, with intriguing characters (Anno called the cast 'sick fucks' or something like that). I like 'the end of Evangelion' though, it is really too crazy not to be charming (eh!).

And: LCL is Life Connecting Liquid or something like that, they never really say it, but some lines in the original japanese text hint at this (my fiancee's suggestion, at least). They need the liquid to avoid rejection of the pilot: in a sense, it acts as a placenta for pilots. While plugged into the amygdala of the clones (as giant-size homunculi), pilots go in a sense back to the 'womb'. This is also some sort of disturbing oedipal syndrome or whatever...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Fascinating and thanks for the clear and detailed explanation regard this mysterious LCL substance. It's always good to hear from another person's point of view, especially if an anime series really doesn't explain in greater detail of how and why such events take place (as with the Evangelion series).

Has Anno expressed any desire to make a sequel to Evangelion or is it left to be as is (aside from the HD remixed version)?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Siren2011]

I confess that I saw Evangelion a second time as an adult, in a similarly dark period of my life, and it worringly resonated with my mood, at the time: I appreciated it more, while the first time, at 15, it left me cold.

That is exactly what happened to me. I was deep in a psychosis the first time I saw it as a young adult, and I had an interconnected web of false beliefs which made my world a living hell, and consequently, made the series more emotionally arresting, especially End of Evangelion.

[Ruldra]

However, killing off every main character and introducing the very hard to swallow "Griffith sold his soul to immortal demons" shit at the very end of the fucking anime, with no hint of a next season even to this day to explain what happened afterwards, is disrespectful to the intelligent portion of the audience. Instantaneously, everyone was transported to a surrealist world of terror. There was no "we didn't have enough money to produce a great last ep" excuse like Gainax did (though I still think they could have done a better job with episodes 25 and 26 of Eva). They were just lazy.

I shit you not, the last few frames of animation were Guts watching his former best friend rape his girlfriend...roll credits, the end...how can anyone be satisfied with an ending like that to a story as respectable as Berserk?

The epilogue of Berserk is not episode 25, but episode 1. It shows that Gutz somehow survived the Eclipse, and is now hunting Apostles in an effort to find Griffith again. That was a nice way to end the anime IMO.

If you want to know how exactly he survived, and what happens afterwards, then you need to read the manga. You'll be surprised at the amount of characters and events that were ommited from the anime.

Sorry for the late reply.