Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[noonan2678]

Anthony, yes, sorry, meant "No Signal".

Did you get a chance to try the mod?

-Jim

Not yet, but will today and let you know. This is what Keene wrote back to me regarding my question about the VGA output:

"For the VGA connector, you can only use this if you are inputting RGB with H and V sync. The KSC wont do any conversion so the input must match the output. It would usually be used with a plasma or projector if you have an RGB H&V sync source."

We're not running H&V sync, right? Is that what the mod accomplished, combining the two to one pin? If we have a conversation on this going with them, it would be great if we could communicate to them through you. They sent me a couple of bad switches, replaced them, and I'm hoping they don't want or forget about the other ones as I could fix and use them. : ) I'd rather keep silent unless they reach out to me. I'm going to try the mod and test with both my RAW sync and composite vid as sync cables. Will let you know later on today.

OK, just did the mod. I can confirm that it did enable synced output from the HD15 as you mentioned. I tested before with no sync, and after with a perfect image from the HD15 direct to my PVM 2950Q. However, I've got the same issue with the Extron...no signal. As I mentioned, Keene had sent me replacement switches with the following mod to fix the issue I was having...

"There is a capacitor which is joined to pin 3 of the 74HC4052 (SMD IC). It is just by the IC itself. This should be changed to 10 NF.

Also, there needs to be a 10K resistor between this point (pin 3) and pin 16 of the same IC (which is the 5V rail)."


I only saw the resistor on there but didn't check for the capacitor. I modded both the original and modded switch. I also used both my RAW sync and composite video as sync cables. All four scenarios produced the same result, "no signal." I know the Extron won't take a signal that isn't clean, but since this has been proven to be, I don't have an ideas as to why it could be doing this.

Fudoh - any ideas?

[Fudoh]

with a perfect image from the HD15 direct to my PVM 2950Q. However, I've got the same issue with the Extron

that was expected. With this little mod you do nothing but mirroring the Scart output onto the HD15 output. It's just a question of which connector you like better.

Fudoh - any ideas

I think as suggested before: build yourself (quick & dirty if you like) an adapter cable to directly connect one of your sources with clean sync to the Extron. This way you can at least tell, if it's a problem with the Extron in the first place or if the Switch does anything to the signal to cause this incompatibility.

[noonan2678]

I think as suggested before: build yourself (quick & dirty if you like) an adapter cable to directly connect one of your sources with clean sync to the Extron. This way you can at least tell, if it's a problem with the Extron in the first place or if the Switch does anything to the signal to cause this incompatibility.

I hear ya. It's not that simple for me as I need some parts and a little guidance, but I'll look into it. Jim, is this something that you can whip up in the short term to test?

The Extron does work with a signal passing through the sync strike. So, other than cleaning the sync, what else is the strike doing? We are passing clean sync to the Extron using the HD15 port since it works direct to the TV. Is there any other known criteria where the Extron will not see/pass a signal other than clean sync?

[Fudoh]

There's one thing I could think of: set the Sync Strike to H/V sync instead of composite sync and see if it changes anything. I have an Extron interface in my setup which I use basically every day. My TV can't sync to 15khz RGB, but the interface clearly shows 15khz on the info panel when fed with such a signal.

[lostinblue]

Here's a pic of my new set:



I'm pretty much in love wit it, and I have to thank you all for doing the thread and showing me the light; this said, so far I've witnessed the scanline porno only through the menus, so allow me to shameless plug myself; by quoting the last post of the last page:

Hi guys!

I just registered, but have been lurking for months now; I just got my PVM (a PVM1454QM, 600 TV Lines from 1995-97) and I'm quite in love with these little machines; that said, I've plugged it on, saw that scanline porn, but have no cables.

I was thinking of building my own cables but I'm kinda initiate, so when I see this diagram I have some doubts; so you guessed it, I have some questions!

First of all, if I make a cable, I understand BNC cables have outer shielding/contact that is meant to be used as a ground/GND, this is puzzling for me because I was planning on using a female RGB to male RGB extention and just cut the upper part of the RGB cable) which lack that kind of setup, is it fine? (and is there any tutorial of some sort?) also if I fail at making a cable that works what am I recommended to buy, what's the cheapest solution (I'm kinda on a budget ).

Thanks guys!

Please, help.


Coming back to the monitor, it's quite pristine, the seller was medical staff somewhere and told me it was sparingly used all these years (nowhere near the use it gets for broadcast), the place eventually closed so he was selling it. He worked on another hospital and said all of these monitors he'd seen are grey, not white so it seems the MD ones were unavailable on this country.

Looks great though.


I'll be sure to hunt a 20" 800 TVLine one at some point, but for now I'm really, really happy with this one. I'm thinking of adding another one to it soonish, to pull out a set like this:



(but with a Plasma)

[noonan2678]

There's one thing I could think of: set the Sync Strike to H/V sync instead of composite sync and see if it changes anything. I have an Extron interface in my setup which I use basically every day. My TV can't sync to 15khz RGB, but the interface clearly shows 15khz on the info panel when fed with such a signal.

No jumper on the strike. The display on the interface shows 15khz as you said when the signal comes out of the strike. I tried going direct to the Extron with all possible combinations and it is still, no signal.

[jdubs]

Anthony, yes, sorry, meant "No Signal".

Did you get a chance to try the mod?

-Jim

Not yet, but will today and let you know. This is what Keene wrote back to me regarding my question about the VGA output:

"For the VGA connector, you can only use this if you are inputting RGB with H and V sync. The KSC wont do any conversion so the input must match the output. It would usually be used with a plasma or projector if you have an RGB H&V sync source."

We're not running H&V sync, right? Is that what the mod accomplished, combining the two to one pin? If we have a conversation on this going with them, it would be great if we could communicate to them through you. They sent me a couple of bad switches, replaced them, and I'm hoping they don't want or forget about the other ones as I could fix and use them. : ) I'd rather keep silent unless they reach out to me. I'm going to try the mod and test with both my RAW sync and composite vid as sync cables. Will let you know later on today.

Yes, you're correct. The mod pulls the composite sync from the SCART output and routes it to the VGA output's pin 13 (H-Sync).

Looking forward to hearing your results! Also, happy to talk to Keene. I figured the mod probably wasn't kosher, so I didn't ask them any questions prior to trying it out. That's awesome you've got a couple extra test subjects at your disposal!

-Jim

[22point8]

Hi guys!

I just registered, but have been lurking for months now; I just got my PVM (a PVM1454QM, 600 TV Lines from 1995-97) and I'm quite in love with these little machines; that said, I've plugged it on, saw that scanline porn, but have no cables.

I was thinking of building my own cables but I'm kinda initiate, so when I see this diagram I have some doubts; so you guessed it, I have some questions!

First of all, if I make a cable, I understand BNC cables have outer shielding/contact that is meant to be used as a ground/GND, this is puzzling for me because I was planning on using a female RGB to male RGB extention and just cut the upper part of the RGB cable) which lack that kind of setup, is it fine? (and is there any tutorial of some sort?) also if I fail at making a cable that works what am I recommended to buy, what's the cheapest solution (I'm kinda on a budget ).

Thanks guys!

Here is an easy diagram:


This is what I use
Wii Gamestation brand RGB SCART/Snakebyte Playstation RGB SCART/QED SCART>SCART switch>SCART to RGBS Female RCA>RCA to BNC Cables>PVM



The SCART switch has separate Stereo out which I use to connect Creative T20 Series 2 speakers.

And here is a review I made of the PVM-1454QM:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... zfpehUepCv

[Capoz]

I have the possibility of take a PVM-2010QM for 100€

the price it's ok or this model it's not ok?

Thank you

[lostinblue]

Here is an easy diagram:

This is what I use
Wii Gamestation brand RGB SCART/Snakebyte Playstation RGB SCART/QED SCART>SCART switch>SCART to RGBS Female RCA>RCA to BNC Cables>PVM



The SCART switch has separate Stereo out which I use to connect Creative T20 Series 2 speakers.

And here is a review I made of the PVM-1454QM:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... zfpehUepCv

You're a lifesaver!

Yeah, that seems like a pretty good solution; just to double check is this the adapter you use?

-> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hama-Scart-to ... 2ec23e1627

It's the only one I'm finding and I'm wondering if there's any kind of transcoding going on because the RCA connectors clearly read YUV instead of RGB. Nevertheless I guess it must be easily moddable if I gut it.

The RCA to BNC adapters idea is genious!

I have the possibility of take a PVM-2010QM for 100€

the price it's ok or this model it's not ok?

Thank you

I think so, but I'm having a hard time believing it to only have 350 TV Lines.

If it's 350 lines I'd try to make them drop the price a little.

[Capoz]

I want it only for paly NEOGEO games

can be ok?

[jdubs]

I think as suggested before: build yourself (quick & dirty if you like) an adapter cable to directly connect one of your sources with clean sync to the Extron. This way you can at least tell, if it's a problem with the Extron in the first place or if the Switch does anything to the signal to cause this incompatibility.

I hear ya. It's not that simple for me as I need some parts and a little guidance, but I'll look into it. Jim, is this something that you can whip up in the short term to test?

The Extron does work with a signal passing through the sync strike. So, other than cleaning the sync, what else is the strike doing? We are passing clean sync to the Extron using the HD15 port since it works direct to the TV. Is there any other known criteria where the Extron will not see/pass a signal other than clean sync?

I can probably pull something like this together in (hopefully) the next day or two.

When you say the Extron does work passing through the sync strike, are you referring to all of your 15khz sources? If so, can you list these sources and what type of sync they are outputting?

-Jim

[lostinblue]

I want it only for paly NEOGEO games

can be ok?

It should be, just bare in mind if the 350 TVLine figure is accurate it won't touch most PVM's definition, by their figures 350 TVLines equal to 440x240; neogeo specs state 320×224 so it's fine; the definition might suffer a little compared to... say, a BVM, though.

This said I'm far from someone in the know for this thread standards.

[Fudoh]

it's about the looks. Every CRT is able to fully resolve the resolution of a NG. The TVL specs indicate how visible the mask (the RGB dots) will be.

[22point8]

Yeah, that seems like a pretty good solution; just to double check is this the adapter you use?

-> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hama-Scart-to ... 2ec23e1627

Yeah, mine isn't Hama branded, but its the same thing, it plugs in to a female scart socket, in this case the output socket of a SCART switch, and the RED, GREEN, BLUE and COMPOSITE are output from the female RCA (when the switch is set to OUT). Then I bought some male RCA to male BNC cables off ebay, it was something like £7 for 4. Then you connect them up to the PVM in the R, G, B and EXT SYNC in.

[jdubs]

Yeah, that seems like a pretty good solution; just to double check is this the adapter you use?

-> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hama-Scart-to ... 2ec23e1627

Yeah, mine isn't Hama branded, but its the same thing, it plugs in to a female scart socket, in this case the output socket of a SCART switch, and the RED, GREEN, BLUE and COMPOSITE are output from the female RCA (when the switch is set to OUT). Then I bought some male RCA to male BNC cables off ebay, it was something like £7 for 4. Then you connect them up to the PVM in the R, G, B and EXT SYNC in.

So, just to confirm, that device doesn't transcode RGB to component?

-Jim

[Fudoh]

no, it does nothing - it's just a breakout adapter.

[noonan2678]

When you say the Extron does work passing through the sync strike, are you referring to all of your 15khz sources? If so, can you list these sources and what type of sync they are outputting?

-Jim

This is my setup (when using the strike):

Console --> SCART Commander --> Sync Strike --> Extron 201 --> PVM 2950Q

For this setup I am using composite vid as sync cables. I had to add a resistor to the sync line (Fudoh, lifesaver) to correct a signal drop issue where flashes/bright white screens would drop the signal out temporarily. Other than that, they are standard, fully wired SCART/RGB cables. The following systems work in this setup:

- SNES
- Sega CDX (some vid noise issues, but look to be a power supply issue)
- N64 (RGB modded)
- Saturn
- Neo Geo CD
- Playstation (1) (some audio issues that seem cable related, but video is good)

All of these work fine with the Extron and it reads the 15khz signal and passes it. I also have RAW sync cables as my monitor likes that best and can eliminate the sync strike using these. There in lies my problem. By eliminating the strike, I have to come out of the Commander and go straight into the Extron, hence the need to use the HD15 port.

So, by building a cable as Fudoh suggested (SCART --> HD15), we can test the output from the SCART connector just to be sure it's not something to do with the HD15 rather than the signal. I would buy one but can't find a fully wired, shielded, grounded one anywhere.

****One note I forgot - When not using DDSP, the top 10-15% of the screen is kind of scrunched up. When I flip on DDSP, it goes away but you lose the ability to use the H and V adjustments.
Fudoh and I haven't really explored this one yet. It does not affect how the Extron reads the signal though...just the output.

[jdubs]

When you say the Extron does work passing through the sync strike, are you referring to all of your 15khz sources? If so, can you list these sources and what type of sync they are outputting?

-Jim

This is my setup (when using the strike):

Console --> SCART Commander --> Sync Strike --> Extron 201 --> PVM 2950Q

For this setup I am using composite vid as sync cables. I had to add a resistor to the sync line (Fudoh, lifesaver) to correct a signal drop issue where flashes/bright white screens would drop the signal out temporarily. Other than that, they are standard, fully wired SCART/RGB cables. The following systems work in this setup:

- SNES
- Sega CDX (some vid noise issues, but look to be a power supply issue)
- N64 (RGB modded)
- Saturn
- Neo Geo CD
- Playstation (1) (some audio issues that seem cable related, but video is good)

All of these work fine with the Extron and it reads the 15khz signal and passes it. I also have RAW sync cables as my monitor likes that best and can eliminate the sync strike using these. There in lies my problem. By eliminating the strike, I have to come out of the Commander and go straight into the Extron, hence the need to use the HD15 port.

So, by building a cable as Fudoh suggested (SCART --> HD15), we can test the output from the SCART connector just to be sure it's not something to do with the HD15 rather than the signal. I would buy one but can't find a fully wired, shielded, grounded one anywhere.

****One note I forgot - When not using DDSP, the top 10-15% of the screen is kind of scrunched up. When I flip on DDSP, it goes away but you lose the ability to use the H and V adjustments.
Fudoh and I haven't really explored this one yet. It does not affect how the Extron reads the signal though...just the output.

Very interesting. So, if you have a combination of composite sync and composite video sync sources hooked up to the Keene, the composite sync sources work fine with your 201 while the composite video sources do not? RGB32E (whose help has been invaluable!!) mentioned that the Extrons will not strip the video side of a composite video (sync) cable, so your results are not surprising.

I need to double check my composite sync sources again and see if they will work directly with the 203...I didn't think they did, but I'll try it again.

Maybe the solution here is to just build a LM1881 sync stripper circuit directly into the Keene.

-Jim

[noonan2678]

Very interesting. So, if you have a combination of composite sync and composite video sync sources hooked up to the Keene, the composite sync sources work fine with your 201 while the composite video sources do not? RGB32E (whose help has been invaluable!!) mentioned that the Extrons will not strip the video side of a composite video (sync) cable, so your results are not surprising.

-Jim

No, come to think of it, I haven't ever tried passing the C-sync through the strike, through the Extron. So, everything I mentioned hooked up that way are all composite vid as sync since they need to go through a sync cleaner to work with my monitor. The C-sync cables I just run straight out of the SCART Commander to the monitor...no strike, no Extron (can't due to the cable problem previously mentioned). Mind you, these are all the same consoles we're talking about.

I got composite vid as sync cables first, not knowing that my monitor wanted that signal cleaned. Then the strike, then the Extron. Somewhere in there, I decided to test a C-sync cable to find that it worked direct to the monitor. All of my sources support C-sync, less the PS1. I might just pick up C-sync cables for everything and only pass the PS1 through the strike. I do want to use the Extron though, so that is why getting this HD15 thing working is critical for me. Don't want to hit the strike if not needed, but I guess it doesn't hurt. Someone put in my head that C-sync can yield better results. That along with the basic principle that less connection means less potential issues.

[jdubs]

Very interesting. So, if you have a combination of composite sync and composite video sync sources hooked up to the Keene, the composite sync sources work fine with your 201 while the composite video sources do not? RGB32E (whose help has been invaluable!!) mentioned that the Extrons will not strip the video side of a composite video (sync) cable, so your results are not surprising.

-Jim

No, come to think of it, I haven't ever tried passing the C-sync through the strike, through the Extron. So, everything I mentioned hooked up that way are all composite vid as sync since they need to go through a sync cleaner to work with my monitor. The C-sync cables I just run straight out of the SCART Commander to the monitor...no strike, no Extron (can't due to the cable problem previously mentioned). Mind you, these are all the same consoles we're talking about.

I got composite vid as sync cables first, not knowing that my monitor wanted that signal cleaned. Then the strike, then the Extron. Somewhere in there, I decided to test a C-sync cable to find that it worked direct to the monitor. All of my sources support C-sync, less the PS1. I might just pick up C-sync cables for everything and only pass the PS1 through the strike. I do want to use the Extron though, so that is why getting this HD15 thing working is critical for me. Don't want to hit the strike if not needed, but I guess it doesn't hurt. Someone put in my head that C-sync can yield better results. That along with the basic principle that less connection means less potential issues.

I hear you on the least connections as possible. My idea is to have one SCART switch, switching my 15khz consoles and the Extron 203 to hook the SCART switch into as well as my Dreamcast and (maybe) my 360...directly via their VGA outputs.

I just tried the following:

Supergun (via SCART to SCART) -> Keene Commander (via VGA to BNC cable) -> Extron SW2 BNC Switch (via BNC to VGA cable) -> Extron 203

"No Signal"

The Supergun has a composite sync, so that's not the problem. I've used the Extron SW2 switch a bunch before and know that it works (i.e., passes unmolested signals).

-Jim

[noonan2678]

I just tried the following:

Supergun (via SCART to SCART) -> Keene Commander (via VGA to BNC cable) -> Extron SW2 BNC Switch (via BNC to VGA cable) -> Extron 203

"No Signal"

The Supergun has a composite sync, so that's not the problem. I've used the Extron SW2 switch a bunch before and know that it works (i.e., passes unmolested signals).

-Jim

I am one cable short to test the same, but I'm sure I'd get the same result. I did just try my c-Sync cable with the SNES into the switch with the same setup as I described. Still, "no signal." Something else is going on here. Thought it might be the strike, but you aren't using one. That said, it is a sync cleaner so not sure about your idea to put an LM1881 into the switch. Seems like it would yield the same results as I'm having, just with one less piece of HW.

[jdubs]

I just tried the following:

Supergun (via SCART to SCART) -> Keene Commander (via VGA to BNC cable) -> Extron SW2 BNC Switch (via BNC to VGA cable) -> Extron 203

"No Signal"

The Supergun has a composite sync, so that's not the problem. I've used the Extron SW2 switch a bunch before and know that it works (i.e., passes unmolested signals).

-Jim

I am one cable short to test the same, but I'm sure I'd get the same result. I did just try my c-Sync cable with the SNES into the switch with the same setup as I described. Still, "no signal." Something else is going on here. Thought it might be the strike, but you aren't using one. That said, it is a sync cleaner so not sure about your idea to put an LM1881 into the switch. Seems like it would yield the same results as I'm having, just with one less piece of HW.

Oh yeah, for sure...I don't think sync stripping is the cure for anything here. I was thinking that it might be when I thought you had some success with your 201.

Has anyone got any proof of a 15khz source actually working on a 201 / 202 / 203? If so, what is your exact setup?

-Jim

[Fudoh]

Has anyone got any proof of a 15khz source actually working on a 201 / 202 / 203? If so, what is your exact setup?

absolutely. Many of us use those interfaces for 480i to 240p conversion on a CRT - that's 15khz in and 15khz out. http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ and several threads on this board. Input was either an Extron VSC unit or a straight 480i XBox360 signal.

[jdubs]

Has anyone got any proof of a 15khz source actually working on a 201 / 202 / 203? If so, what is your exact setup?

absolutely. Many of us use those interfaces for 480i to 240p conversion on a CRT - that's 15khz in and 15khz out. http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ and several threads on this board. Input was either an Extron VSC unit or a straight 480i XBox360 signal.

Yeah, no, the question was somewhat rhetorical. Lots of folks have gotten it to work....I just wanted the Keene to work with it!

Thanks, though, Fudoh.

-Jim

[Fudoh]

I would start with a device that works 100% directly on the Extron and then put the Keene in between to see if anything changes.

[noonan2678]

I would start with a device that works 100% directly on the Extron and then put the Keene in between to see if anything changes.

Makes sense - Jim, if you are able to test this once you make the cable, that would be a huge help. I'm still searching for a fully-wired, SCART --> HD15 cable...can't find one. Maybe I can purchase one from you if you're making one anyway. Let me know! " )

[jdubs]

I would start with a device that works 100% directly on the Extron and then put the Keene in between to see if anything changes.

Makes sense - Jim, if you are able to test this once you make the cable, that would be a huge help. I'm still searching for a fully-wired, SCART --> HD15 cable...can't find one. Maybe I can purchase one from you if you're making one anyway. Let me know! " )

PM'd

-Jim

[robneal81]

My quest for the ultimate RGB monitor...

I was hoping you guys could give me your opinions on RGB monitors. I currently own a Sony PVM 20M2U and I really love it. Over the past 6 months a bunch of my friends have bought PVM's and all are really amazing. I was hoping to find another RGB monitor that has the following options my PVM doesn't:

- 480p component input
- 480p VGA input
- Larger than 20"
- Must still be 4:3, not 16:9

I've seen a few people post about Ikegami monitors saying they're as good, if not better than the PVM's. I found one model, the 20" TM20-90R, that I believe (I'm not 100% sure) supports 480p component, but I'm not sure if there's any way to get a VGA signal into it. Does anyone have any thoughts or information on Ikegami monitors?

Also, I haven't had any luck with large monitors. I've only seen 2 or 3 PVM's up close that were larger than 20" and while they looked great, they weren't as sharp as my 20M2U. I know there's a lot that could effect it, ranging from usage hours, to aperture grille vs Shadow Mask technology, to simply the size of the pixels. I was still hoping for the "perfect" one though. Does anyone know of a large RGB monitor that looks just as good as the 20" PVM's? Is there some 4:3, 32", 1024 x 768 monitor out there that accepts 240p RGB all the way up to 480p component and VGA?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Fudoh]

Lawfer recently got an Ikegami. I don't know if it's worth the effort. It's quite similar to a BVM-D series and that's certainly easier to pick up than an Ikegami. Get in touch with him, if you want to hear more about the Ikegami.

VGA is easily transcoded to 480p, so even if RGBHV is no option, this shouldn't stop you.

If you only want 480p/VGA (and not 15khz support) why not look at PC monitors instead ? Mitsubishi did a 22" 4:3 screen back in the days. Diamondtron. One of the, if not THE best PC CRT ever released. Component to VGA transcoding is also easy.

If you go larger, no matter if you chose a PVM, or a tri-sync arcade chassis or a NEC, Hantarex, Barco or something similar - these are all presentation displays, not editing displays, so the quality is nowhere near what you get from a desktop PVM or BVM set.

This said, I think 20" is a waste for 480p. 480p can look gorgeous and should be displayed as big as possible.