Shmupmame 4.2: Lagless Mars Matrix, Strikers 1945, Galaga 88

[captpain]

Just use ShmupMAME v3 for the games it specifically helps, weirdo.

[nimitz]

It's a pretty tough situation, on one side I personally wont use a 141 based version, instead I will keep backporting more and more stuff to 99 for future releases and it will remain the main shmupmame build.

That being said, it "seems" that quite a few people would like to see an alternate build based on current mame (141u1 as of now).

What I would like to know is how many people would actually like to see a 141 based version and if they are willing to make it worth my time (since I wont even use it).


Another option is to find someone who wants such a version and who is able to port all the stuff to 141. I can provide help to anyone willing to do that.

[captpain]

If you want to know, I can tell you right now that the luddite, computer-illiterate people that post on this forum will want a newer version because somehow a build of MAME will not run on their toasters/computers. I think you've got people running Windows 3.1 who don't even know how to use MAME in the first place.

Keep it on 0.99, fix the drivers that you'd like, and make it work in the way that you see fit.

[TVG]

IMO the pros far outweight the cons of using the new build. Mame is hard enough to use for the average person that I don't think they should have the hassle of the old problems+tracking outdated romsets+graphical gliches and various problems you will have to backport one by one.

You may have your mind already set but I think a lot of people would prefer having shmupmame as an alternative to mame, with the same devolpments and romsets but just more suited for "performance" play and more faithful in terms of inputs. Plus while I appreciate your emulator a lot and thank you for your work, I think there's quite a number of pople having various problems with ver 3. Is it worth the extra work?

[Lance Boyle]

instead I will keep backporting more and more stuff to 99 for future releases

How hard would it be to backport the newer controller drivers as well?

[dinosaurjerk]

The only problem with the current version of shmupmame is that x-input isn't supported, I guess. Slapping the xpadder icon before I start it tho isn't that big a deal...

[Cugel]

If you want to know, I can tell you right now that the luddite, computer-illiterate people that post on this forum will want a newer version because somehow a build of MAME will not run on their toasters/computers. I think you've got people running Windows 3.1 who don't even know how to use MAME in the first place.

You really enjoy being a prick.

[jepjepjep]

What I would like to know is how many people would actually like to see a 141 based version and if they are willing to make it worth my time (since I wont even use it).

I'd really like the garegga, batrider, and bakraid patches to be available on a 141 version since I don't have a windows machine anymore. The newest mame compiles cleanly on the mac (and linux).

[captpain]

If you want to know, I can tell you right now that the luddite, computer-illiterate people that post on this forum will want a newer version because somehow a build of MAME will not run on their toasters/computers. I think you've got people running Windows 3.1 who don't even know how to use MAME in the first place.

You really enjoy being a prick.

I'm not outright trying to be a jerk but it's seriously weird how many problems people are having running a custom version of MAME.

[Lance Boyle]

it's seriously weird how many problems people are having running a custom version of MAME.

Wonderful to assume that it's our fault when comparatively few of us had any problems with the more stable, recent, complete 2.2 release.

Even better when the author omits a feature we're used to having in the more recent versions of MAME and spits out "pebkac" when we can't make it work - BECAUSE IT ISN'T THERE.

[Aisha]

I haven't had any technical difficulties running 3.0 and 3.0b on modern hardware, but my main point of contention is the loss of game compatibility and emulation improvements that have been made since Mame 0.99 was released in 2005. I don't imagine that everything is going to get backported, especially when it comes to non-shmup games. The move to Mame 0.99 has been made even more underwhelming to me because I haven't been able to notice any benefits to the old rendering engine. So yes, I would also like to see a maintained build based on newer Mame versions, although I will admit that mame plus! 0.99 has some nice features (working save states, video options, etc) and wish they were included as well, but that's probably asking for too much.

[EPS21]

What I would like to know is how many people would actually like to see a 141 based version and if they are willing to make it worth my time (since I wont even use it).

v3b doesn't even work on my machine (Windows 7 64bit), and the newer versions of Mame do include some good fixes for shmups occasionally, like the most recent being Batsugun's sound working. I vote for a 141u1 and current versions. Regardless of what you do, thanks for developing it at all!

[Shogun]

I use Windows 7 x64 with a Q6600 quad core cpu and 3b runs fine for me. However I think I'll stick with 2.2 because maintaining one set of roms is enough work on its own. I can't really see the benefits of moving to 3b outweighing the cons. Maybe I need to read over the updates again.

Thanks for all the work on bringing this version of Mame out. It has really made emulated gaming that much more enjoyable.

[SPYvsSPY]

I can't comet on a .141 64bit version as I'm on older hardware. (C2D e6750/4GB Ram/ ATI HD4850). I've read that the newer C++ mame's taxes cpu's hard? So I haven't gone over 138u1.

I'm not having any problems with Laggless v3b at all, it's smoking fast on XP with SP3. though I've really got this OS striped down to the bone.(around 14-15 Processes in the taskmanger) Is everyone around these parts on 64bit OS and Quad cores!? Sheeeessshhh...

[BPzeBanshee]

my main point of contention is the loss of game compatibility and emulation improvements that have been made since Mame 0.99 was released in 2005. I don't imagine that everything is going to get backported, especially when it comes to non-shmup games.

Wonderful to assume that it's our fault when comparatively few of us had any problems with the more stable, recent, complete 2.2 release.

Even better when the author omits a feature we're used to having in the more recent versions of MAME and spits out "pebkac" when we can't make it work - BECAUSE IT ISN'T THERE.

IMO the pros far outweight the cons of using the new build. Mame is hard enough to use for the average person that I don't think they should have the hassle of the old problems+tracking outdated romsets+graphical gliches and various problems you will have to backport one by one.

You may have your mind already set but I think a lot of people would prefer having shmupmame as an alternative to mame, with the same devolpments and romsets but just more suited for "performance" play and more faithful in terms of inputs. Plus while I appreciate your emulator a lot and thank you for your work, I think there's quite a number of pople having various problems with ver 3. Is it worth the extra work?

- emulation improvements relating to shmups will be backported
- not EVERYTHING will be backported because this is SHMUPMAME and not EVERYTHINGMAME
- The newer C++ MAME is hell for performance which is why the backporting to 0.99 was done to begin with

No wonder nimitz told some of yous that 'Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair', you bitching newbs have forgotten how and where this thing started, and behaving like Lance Boyle when it comes to trying to figure out the solutions yourself thinking it's actually going to get you somewhere. This is the kind of shit that shuts down Cave threads, and makes elitists how they are.

Seriously, stop behaving like rude trolls who think they know better than the developers who have contributed to this build. Most of the crap you're giving Nimitz could have easily be said in a much nicer tone and could have been fixed when brought to attention if you hadn't been stuffing solutions into Nimitz's mouth for 64-bit builds. Acknowledgement for your issues would be much easier if complaints were done that way, and it would also help for you people to actually learn how to use MAME to begin with since the settings aren't THAT different from the newer releases.

And for the record, I'm still more than happy to try and help with problematic issues, so long as you all pull yourself together and BEHAVE.

[AWJ]

I can't comet on a .141 64bit version as I'm on older hardware. (C2D e6750/4GB Ram/ ATI HD4850). I've read that the newer C++ mame's taxes cpu's hard? So I haven't gone over 138u1.

I run a 64-bit build of the latest MAME on a machine with a CPU substantially older and slower than yours (an Athlon 4800+, dating back to 2005). The only driver that doesn't run at full speed on my machine but did in an older MAME version, is konamigx.c (Goku/Sexy Parodius, Salamander 2, Twinbee Yahho) And that has nothing to do with C++, but rather with the TMS57002 DSP being emulated in the newer MAME versions. Modern MAME being super-slow is a myth promoted by a couple of disgruntled developers who don't want to learn C++ .And 64-bit MAME is faster than 32-bit MAME running on the same machine--dramatically so in many cases.

[TVG]

How about you go eat shit?

Out of the 3 quotes you posted only one contained something remotely harsh, for starters.
Dude asked for opinions. He got them. Politely for the most part. Why are you even trying to stir up shit on his behalf? Fucking brat.

To continue the discussion, I think the benefits of older mame are not obvious for most people because most people can run everything at 100% speed outside of 3D games, so emulation speed is a non-issue in this case. I do not mean this in a vicious way, despite the people trying to turn this topic ugly.

No, I don't have a fucking degree in mame, I can set it up fine for my needs and have been using mame for years and years, granted, back then I just used the commandline version, typed -effect sharp and -scanlines whathever and everything was fine.

[KBZ]

EPIC POST

How about you go eat shit?

uuuh...


People need to calm down. What's with the demanding and rude attitude of people on this board lately?

For me, nimitz has made Mame cool again. Hate to lose that because of a few bad apples.

Anyway, Win 7 64bit over here and it's all smooth sailing.

[TVG]

People need to calm down. What's with the demanding and rude attitude of people on this board lately?

For me, nimitz has made Mame cool again. Hate to lose that because of a few bad apples.

How was the "epic post" not rude?
I've been asking questions and been trying to help people having the same issues I did. Again, politely and without DEMANDING anything. "BEHAVE, you computer illiterate morons" is fine? I don't know what happened on IRC but I don't think that attitude does anyone good.

[IseeThings]

- The newer C++ MAME is hell for performance which is why the backporting to 0.99 was done to begin with

C++ is making absolutely _no_ difference to the performance of the executable.

It increased link times a bit when compiling, nothing more. The vast majority of MAME is still C code, it just takes advantage of C++ features to make things a bit more reliable (and, if anything faster) in places to avoid having to reimplement C++ style features in C.

During the C -> C++ transitional period you could compile MAME using either C, or C++, the C++ binary was 1-2% faster in the majority of tested cases. The hysteria surrounding the move to C++ is laughable at best.

The 64-bit builds are a good 20-25% faster than the 32-bit ones too.

The main, #1 noticable cause of slowdown in MAME is the improvement of the emulation, emulating previously missing video effects, CPUs, or more correct sound.

[dpful]

Man, I'm reluctant to make this thread any longer, but thought I should chime in.
Thanks Nimitz!!!! I'm stoked youve taken on the hobby, I havnt tried v3 yet, I was waiting for things to settle down here (I havnt even found the roms yet), I'm just taking it slow.
Just wanted to say that I appreciate your work, view as as an artistic endeavor from you, and can't wait to enjoy it.
I'm appreciating all the help Ive read here (Im sure I'll need it too), embarraced about the entitlement and the begs, noticing that no ones offered to make it worth your while, and waiting for someone capable to step up and take your work and expertise (graciously offered) to make it the way THEY want. Keep on keepin' on!

[emphatic]

For me, nimitz has made Mame cool again.

+1

Thanks, nimitz for all the MAME work, but also for putting up with all the drama.

[Lance Boyle]

I think it goes without saying that we all very much appreciate all of Nimitz's work up to this point, and what some might consider "drama" is what I'd call necessary, on-topic discussion with the interest of the build's improvement in mind.

[gavin19]

Is everyone around these parts on 64bit OS and Quad cores!? Sheeeessshhh...

Sorry, only a triple core

Win7 64bit, no problems with 2.2 or 3.0b at all! For those who can't/won't use 3.0b then why not go back to 2.2?

Also, just to clarify, 2.2 save states et al cannot be imported into 3.0. Correct?

[Zeron]

Well actually I did not request a 0.141u1 based GUI build but the 0.137 from Shmup MAME 2.2 but whatever, I guess its not necessary since I am buying a new PC and replacing the MAME PC with this one.

[Mortificator]

I just don't understand the reason for introducing this choice between the improvements Nimitz continues to make and the improvements every other dev continues to make, when everyone easily could enjoy both (and until 3.0, did).

[Iori Branford]

What I would like to know is how many people would actually like to see a 141 based version and if they are willing to make it worth my time (since I wont even use it).

The need to gather and rearrange ROMs for 0.99 is the big barrier for would-be users (see the other ShmupMAME thread). Removing that alone is what they could be waiting for. I know as much as I love the toaplan2 Raizing games on 3.0, I still recommend other users to keep 2.2.

I would like to try my hand at coding, if I can find the correct codebase in which to drop the ShmupMAME source.

[sirmax]

then add it to your DEP exception list.

That did it. Kinda strange, 'cause I've never encountered the 0xc0000005-error, but whatever. 3.0b works like a charm now, so thank you for that! Also, because of that I was able to reproduce the back label-bug in Galuda. Everythings cool as long as I start the game normally by inserting a coin and pressing start, but as soon as I load a particular save - the one one the zero-key, which brings me to the beginning of stage 1, moments before you gain control and the first enemies spawn - its back labeled.

[zakk]

My only real issue here is by going this far back it pretty much killed easy multi-platform builds. I realize that's probably pretty far down on your list of things you care about, though.

[austere]

For the record, my opinion is that nimitz should just maintain a patch against the latest MAME, but I understand why he wouldn't agree. It's a different philosophy, I care about "pure" accuracy while nimitz is more pragmatic* and cares about the enduser. :)

Regardless, I did a little single ROM test on 3 different MAME builds, you can see the results below:

Code: Select all

ROM: ddonpach

mame .141 (i686) 32-bit:
561%, 591%, 537%, 596%
Average: 571% StdDev: 28%

mame .135 32-bit:
618%, 674%, 599%, 664%, 
Average: 639% StdDev: 36%
=> 12% Faster (0.6-24%)

mame .99 32-bit:
(57.55Hz)
691.6 fps => 1202%, 753.7 fps => 1310%, 771.4 fps => 1340%, 775.2 fps => 1347%
Average: 1300% StdDev: 67%
=> 128% faster (106-151%)

As a reference, here is the change log for ddonpach from MAWS:

Code: Select all

- 0.136: Added eeprom-ddonpach.bin EEPROM.
- 0.133u1: Renamed (ddonpchj) to (ddonpachj).
- 16th October 2006: Mr. Do - Added DoDonpachi instruction cards provided by zlk.
- 0.68: Brian Troha added clone DoDonPachi (International). Renamed (ddonpach) to (ddonpchj). 

EDIT: And the MAWS change log for the cave.c driver:

Code: Select all

- 0.137u1: Cave cleanups [David Haywood]: Removed fake Region dipswitch that modified the region byte in the EEPROM each reset for Sailor Moon, Air Gallet and Mazinger Z. Split out different regions into clones with different default EEPROMs instead, and ensured all EEPROMs are factory default for that region (this is a cleaner solution and more accurately represents the PCBs).
- 0.136u1: Fabio Priuli added driver data struct to the Cave driver.
- 0.131u2: Fabio Priuli fixed a couple of bugs in in the Cave driver introduced with the memory map merges.
- 0.131u1: MooglyGuy merged memory maps in the Cave driver.
- 0.129u5: Phil Bennett fixed Cave games freezes during demontration/intro.
- 0.127u3: Cave driver changes [Kevin Eshbach]: Changed the hardcoded MHz values in the Cave driver to the XTAL equivalents. Updated the Cave driver for the game Guwange with gals that need to be dumped.
- 0.123u6: Aaron Giles fixed terrible slow down in some scenes of Air Gallet and Mazinger Z.
- 0.123u2: Changed palettesize in all games to 32768 colors, except DoDonPachi to 33792 and Power Instinct 2 / Legends to 43008.
- 0.123u1: Atari Ace added initialization to machine/nmk112.c. This resolves a multi-session audio problem reported for DonPachi. Sonikos added missing P1 button 4 in Power Instinct 2 and Power Instinct Legends.
- 0.122: Sonikos cleaned up input ports in the Cave driver. Fixed many game descriptions.
- 0.113u2: Changed VSync to 57.550645 Hz.
- 0.111u5: Brian Troha added documentation to the Cave driver.
- 0.111u4: Stephane Humbert updated dipswitches in the Cave driver and added locations.
- 0.99u4: Added machine mk112.c.

So we can see the change to C++ didn't really effect running speed all that much, even though I'm cheating a bit by using the i686 build (you're welcome to test it yourselves). In fact, since 0.6% is within the range of uncertainty, we can say that it's a total red herring. To be honest, even if it did make a slight difference, I'd prefer to use it. I will not be working with the older versions of MAME either way but the new interface is MUCH cleaner and I'm a C++ whore. Anyway, what's interesting is the performance difference between MAME .99 and the more recent versions. It's at least twice as fast and I doubt "emulation accuracy" is all there is to it even if the above log did not describe all the changes made to the cave.c driver. Taking the latter into consideration, I went ahead and made a diff and I can't see much that should slow things down:

http://www.activcontrol.net/stuff/mamed ... c.diff.txt
http://www.activcontrol.net/stuff/mamed ... d.diff.txt

It should also be noted that the YMZ280B driver was fixed between MAME .135 and MAME .99. Other than that, there's also the 68k and (... dare I mention it ...) the MAME core itself.

The other problem is, it would be ideal if people only had to run a single version of MAME on their machine. It's best to use the latest version as it will have (ideally) the closest "emulation accuracy". What if you want to play a game nimitz hasn't fixed in shmupmame yet? How will you know that it'll work correctly or if you're playing it inaccurately? Also, like the recent fixes show, there's certain things you can miss unless you know they were there, using an old version throws away years of work by MAMEdevs. Even though absolute accuracy is impossible (unless you essentially recreate the entire functionality of the PCB and even then -- ;)) when deciding between it and speed, you should almost always go for accuracy. The "almost", is where the whole debate goes wild. ;D

By the way, here's an interesting article on the topic of accuracy: http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future . I have an essay in the works on this topic, as well.

The need to gather and rearrange ROMs for 0.99 is the big barrier for would-be users (see the other ShmupMAME thread).

Do you mean the new Cave PGM romsets? If so then tough, we can't have people running around with bad or incomplete romsets. Why do you think MAME bothers checking them at all?

* itself a form of idealism.