Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Obscura]

Going for the Ninja Gaiden 1cc, anyone have any tips for that bit in 5-3 with the Bazooka Joe ledgeguarders with Abobo's overhead? Right now, that's one of two screens that's holding me back from the clear (the other, of course, being Jacquio); I've got a method that works with tight enough execution (kill the first bird, then press hard to the right, landing on the left edge of the Bazooka Joe platforms and slashing the instant after landing), but the execution has to be really tight, with anything being an instant off equalling getting dumped into the pit.

[Blinge]

who do you think you are!!!

[Squire Grooktook]

Going for the Ninja Gaiden 1cc, anyone have any tips for that bit in 5-3 with the Bazooka Joe ledgeguarders with Abobo's overhead? Right now, that's one of two screens that's holding me back from the clear (the other, of course, being Jacquio); I've got a method that works with tight enough execution (kill the first bird, then press hard to the right, landing on the left edge of the Bazooka Joe platforms and slashing the instant after landing), but the execution has to be really tight, with anything being an instant off equalling getting dumped into the pit.

Not sure which exact location you're referring to, but here's my annotated 5-3 route, if it helps.. I think in both appearance of a bazooka guy, I used a sub weapon.

[BIL]

Going for the Ninja Gaiden 1cc, anyone have any tips for that bit in 5-3 with the Bazooka Joe ledgeguarders with Abobo's overhead? Right now, that's one of two screens that's holding me back from the clear (the other, of course, being Jacquio); I've got a method that works with tight enough execution (kill the first bird, then press hard to the right, landing on the left edge of the Bazooka Joe platforms and slashing the instant after landing), but the execution has to be really tight, with anything being an instant off equalling getting dumped into the pit.

In a rush ATM, but for now:

Invincible Method (requires you to be quick, but basically foolproof otherwise)

Other method (uses Jumpslash, but it's not particularly relevant... main thing is to quickly board the platforms and kill the guards)

Scary-looking section, but it's set up to be steamrolled through. Any subweapon works but firewheel/JS are the obvious ideals. Taken at speed, everything but the ledge guards is mostly noise. AFAIK, the runners can't actually hit an advancing player (you can see I go straight under the first in the JS run, and the second is collateral while countering the ledge guard's shot). Might be wrong on that though.

Also can't remember if there's a JS in 5-3, pretty sure I brought that one in from 5-2. But the firewheel's right there every time.

[FinalBaton]

Is it that part? (that's my run below)



basically : run like the wind but stop as soon as you touch the platform and slash right away. The jumping guys will just go over you. Birdo will fly off-screen too. And bat under you. This is one of the manyy instances of the game encouraging going blazing fast (yet being precise. that part is equally as important).

There's also a firewheel just before(last candle on the prior screen) that you can use if you haul ass

[BIL]

Aha, as I thought - runners can't hit you. That GIF illustrates all the enemy "noise" in the sequence better than my runs do. Just get on the ledges and kill the guards, everything else will sort itself out.

There's also a firewheel just before(last candle on the prior screen) that you can use if you haul ass

Yeah, main thing is to slash the candle, let the firewheel hit the floor, then grab it. This'll free up the half-second you need.

[Obscura]

Aside from the first bird (where I stand half-way across the platform and kill it before scrolling the Abobo and Bazooka Joe on screen), Baton's method is exactly what I've been doing. The issue I've been running into is being just a bit too slow on the slash after landing and getting shot into the pit by the Bazooka Joes, but I guess the answer is just "be faster, asshole!"

Either that, or use the fire wheel. I've been using it to simplify grabbing the extend, but using it on this screen wouldn't be a bad idea!

[Vanguard]

The firewheel suggestion is a really good idea. I didn't know that worked.

One thing worth noting is that if something goes wrong you can fall back to the left and despawn the bazooka soldier to try again. As long as you're holding right from the moment the soldier spawns until the moment he dies, you should have enough time.

It may be slow and clunky, but it's probably my favorite game in the series in terms of presentation and atmosphere (particularly in regard to the darker elements of the franchise aesthetic).

I get that you're generally not the person to care about that compared to lethargic gameplay - and I'll seldom replay a game on those basis myself, busy busy - but I do have an enormous soft spot for it and can't help but wince to see it called pointless.

I might feel differently if I tried replaying it now, but I loved Kirby 64 when it came out. It's inarguably bad as a conventional action game - it's full of obstacles you can just fly over and lone enemies who sit there and wait for you to kill them. It's in no way a match for KDL1 Extra's relentless hostility or Super Star's rowdy brawling. With that said, I do think there's some unique merit in it if approached as a "toybox" game. The combination copy system gives you a ton of varied abilities to play with, and by the time you've seen them all the game should be about over.

Everything not gameplay-related in Kirby 64 is great. The graphics, with their emphasis on simple, colorful, cartoonish characters hold up much better than most Nintendo 64 games. The soundtrack is excellent. The cutscenes are very cute, expressive, and fun. Depictions off horrible monsters going after cutesy protagonists are almost always obnoxious and stupid, but Kirby 64 handles the idea nicely. I like that Shiver Star is really post-apocalyptic Earth, but that the game doesn't draw attention to it.

I remember thinking that searching for the crystal shards went a long way towards making the levels engaging, but I'm not sure I'd still think so if I played it again now. I originally liked the rainbow drops in KDL2 too but in my recent playthrough I thought they just slowed down a game that was already dragging. 100% completion sucks the fun out of most games.

Rainbow Islands

AC Rainbow Islands is on my to-do list, but I keep putting it off and the main reason is because collecting all of the diamonds in order sounds really tedious. Growing up I had the NES port where the order didn't matter and that was already kind of a pain. I've only played a few credits of the arcade version, but I do remember the water in the Arkanoid island rising shockingly quickly. At the time I was wondering if I hadn't run afoul of some sort of rank system, but I guess that's just how that level is. Is there a rank system or any other invisible mechanics to be aware of?

I really love Bubble Bobble's item system - no game has ever blown my mind more than when I found out that Bubble Bobble's items spawns are controlled not by RNG, but by the player's actions. This is seriously recommended reading for anyone not familiar with Bubble Bobble's item system. Bubble Bobble players manipulating item drops look like wizards - they engage in a bunch of strange, inexplicable actions and then miraculously the next item to spawn is the one they wanted. It's the sort of stuff you'd expect to hear from kids whose uncles work at Nintendo. One of the reasons why I want to get into Rainbow Islands is because it seems to maintain that concept and in some cases is even more bold.

Like, its crazy to me that you can get something as gamechanging as permanent flight as a reward for good performance, not as an unlockable you get during the story, not as a tradeoff in exchange for a different ability, not as something you grind for, but just as something a strong player gets to have and a weak player doesn't. It's so gutsy! Especially in a game built around the ability to create your own platforms! The only games I know of that do anything on that same level are roguelikes.

Do you only go after the first three all-diamonds-in-order rewards in your runs?

[blackoak]

Anyone try The Messenger yet? Wondering if I should pick it up or just re-run through the NG trilogy for my ninja fix, haha. Its been a couple years since my last playthrough in fact...

[Obscura]

The above post might constitute the craziest example of synchronicity I've ever seen -- I'd never heard of "The Messenger", so I went to the Steam store to see if I could find out more... and guess what the featured game was?

The universe is so weird sometimes.

[Blinge]

The Obscura Show.

We're all watching you, baby.

[blackoak]

I really love Bubble Bobble's item system - no game has ever blown my mind more than when I found out that Bubble Bobble's items spawns are controlled not by RNG, but by the player's actions. This is seriously recommended reading for anyone not familiar with Bubble Bobble's item system.

Wow, thanks for sharing that, I never knew you could control the item spawns. Is it the same for the NES port, I wonder? I have really fond memories of playing Bubble Bobble with my Grandma back in the day. Going to give Rainbow Islands a serious go after reading the above, too.

Haha, yeah, The Messenger... I guess my post above could also be rephrased "who here is willing to be the sacrificial lamb and test this out". To be fair, I've had fun with a number of recent platformers/action games: I thought Hyper Light Drifter, Hollow Knight, and Celeste were all very fun. But in general I share the sentiments of kitten, that these modern remakes waste way too much of my time with really tedious level design and drip-feed/collect'em'all mechanics.

[FinalBaton]

It also blew my mind to learn Bubble Bobble's item spawns weren't RNG-driven (I think it was when Sumezu talked about it a couple months ago). This gives like, infinite strategies options for playing the game. Making it an extremely deep platformer/puzzle. Although too much choice can be a bit daunting(I know for me it sometime is). But I'm sure it must be quite the gameplay experience to plan a run ahead. Print out the chart Vanguard linked and make your war strategy!

I too have very strong memories tied to the NES port. My best friend had it and we played NES a lot in the basement over at his house and among the couple cart he had, Bubble Bobble was our favourite. We played the heck out of that

I saw a "Top best ports of BB" video a while back, and I'm curious to know if the experts on here mostly agree with it or not.
It's this vid (I have no idea if the guy is knowledgeable or not. but I like his commentary on here. Very enjoyable comparison vid) :

https://youtu.be/POlEukjZ6ts?t=1m

Hey, the MSX2 version seems pretty damn decent! Would fire it up for sure if I had an MSX machine

Master System looks like one of the best 8-bit version at first glance

X68000... wow!

PS1 version looks like great version to get

[Sumez]

Don't have time to watch the video now, but aside from the late-era emulation style ports, the best port is probably the Master System one, which is just super solid, and adds a bunch of extra stuff to the game. I've never tried the NES one, but I think it looks pretty crappy. I guess if you don't compare to the arcade version it's probably pretty good.
Haven't looked into the X68k version either, but I'm guessing it's close to arcade perfect? To my knowledge no port was actually arcade perfect until MAME cracked that propriety chip only like 10 or so years ago, though.

The item counters do add a bit of strategy on the early part of a run after a reset, but mostly they just prouce a general idea of stuff you should try to get/do a lot of, and balance out the "randomness" in a refreshingly fair manner. I personally prefer to just leave them to chance most of the time, and see what happens. It's the variety that makes these games so interesting to keep playing.

[FinalBaton]

Thanks for your quick take Sumez. I'm looking for a few carts to pick for my Master System and now I'm definitely gonna pick BB, after seeing you recommend it

[Sumez]

AC Rainbow Islands is on my to-do list, but I keep putting it off and the main reason is because collecting all of the diamonds in order sounds really tedious.

It's not really. Once you get the first half of them, it gets easier, and you can just proceed through the rest of the island as normal. The biggest issue is how easy it is to screw up. Get one color too early, and there's no way to recover.
Usually I have a pattern that I go for on the first round of a new island to make sure I cover the early ground, and then I just pick up the rest as I go. I recorded a video of me demonstrating how I play them quite some time ago, I'll see if I can find it. My game ended on the last island though, without making it to the end boss.

I've only played a few credits of the arcade version, but I do remember the water in the Arkanoid island rising shockingly quickly. At the time I was wondering if I hadn't run afoul of some sort of rank system, but I guess that's just how that level is. Is there a rank system or any other invisible mechanics to be aware of?

Yeah, the whole theme of the Arkanoid stages is that they are very short, but require you to be extremely fast. It's not as bad later in the game, but from that point on you definitely need to stay on your toes. Speed is a huge part of this game.
I never really looked into it, but I feel like there is some kind of rank system, and when I manage to get far enough into the game before losing my first life, the enemies will start turning red much faster, often before I even reach them, like if I'm playing on a super high difficulty. I'm not sure it's worth being aware of though. In general I don't feel that the difficulty setting via dipswitches do much of a difference in the game.

Do you only go after the first three all-diamonds-in-order rewards in your runs?

Yeah, I never decided to take it to the next level and go for all of the secret rooms. The big show killer for me is island 6 where it's just too easy to screw up. I've gotten the diamonds in order on all islands up to at least 7, but always lose a lot of lives in the process.
The first three rewards are by far the most important to get, since it'll keep you from getting set back when losing a life. There are only two of the later ones that I find really useful - the permanent wings, and the permanent rotating fire thing. The latter especially makes the remainder of the game super easy if you get it.
The warp doors and book that lets you use continues on the final three islands are of course useless unless you are going for the all secret doors bonus on the later revisions.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The one thing the NES version does is it appears to make walljumping easier with bubbles. Normally when you fire against a wall, bubbles can pop even as they are forming, so you can't stand right up against a wall and fire off bubbles to wallclimb. You need to be a bit farther back from the wall to create climbable bubbles. On the NES though, bubbles are unpoppable until the bubnle is fully formed, so against a wall you can fire them off and jump on top as they form beneath you.

Still a great version, just a minor change if you're after arcade accuracy.

[Squire Grooktook]

cutscenes are very cute, expressive, and fun. Depictions off horrible monsters going after cutesy protagonists are almost always obnoxious and stupid, but Kirby 64 handles the idea nicely. I like that Shiver Star is really post-apocalyptic Earth, but that the game doesn't draw attention to it.

We occasionally post fan art in this thread, so here's one personal favorite interpretation which I think sums it up nicely:

Spoiler

[WelshMegalodon]

Thanks for your quick take Sumez. I'm looking for a few carts to pick for my Master System and now I'm definitely gonna pick BB, after seeing you recommend it

While Bloodreign and Herr Schatten have already sung the praises of that wonderful conversion, I'd like to vouch for it as well! One of my Top 5 Master System games without a doubt. Really, I think all of my favorite Master System games are ports... R-Type, Aleste, Bubble Bobble, Ultima IV, maybe OutRun... Power Strike II is the shining exception, though, and maybe Monster World II.

EDIT: There's also a port of Ys, but some of the dungeon layouts have been mirrored and the PSG rendition of the soundtrack is terrible. It's FM or bust for that one.

[BrianC]

I like BB SMS so much, I have both the EU and JP carts (actually, the latter was included in a bundle of games with the system).

One warning about the western version of Ys SMS. The FM has been removed for that version. Most US/EU games that have FM in the JP version will still play it on a JP system with adapter or modded system with FM, but Ys and Phantasy Star removed it for the western versions. It's not my favorite version either since the hit detection is a bit suspect in that version.

[Marc]

Wasn't there 2 versions of Rainbow Islands on the NES?
Pretty sure I remember a Euro port by Ocean Software, and a US/JPN version by someone else, Taito themselves maybe?

Anyhoo, fired up Sparkster last night. Not impressed. Two things conspire to mess this up, the hugeness of the sprites, and the weird way the screen scrolls, which sometimes means heading forward with poor visibility, or keep stop-starting to re-centre the screen. Makes what should be a fast-paced arcade platformer mostly annoying and fiddly.

Also sat down with The Ninja Warriors Again. Made it to the end of ST6 where the teleporting boss beat my ass. Getting a handle on the mechanics though, so will be going for the 1CC.

[Sumez]

Wasn't there 2 versions of Rainbow Islands on the NES?
Pretty sure I remember a Euro port by Ocean Software, and a US/JPN version by someone else, Taito themselves maybe?

Yup. Only played the Jap Taito version, and it's interesting, but it feels like a completely different game, with a super strange difficulty curve (mostly super easy stages and some insane spikes) and a different gameplay focus.
The Ocean one is probably a better port, but for a game like Rainbow Islands where every detail in how it controls and how the hitboxes work, etc. matters so much, I think the PC Engine one is the only really acceptable direct port.

[BrianC]

Wasn't there 2 versions of Rainbow Islands on the NES?
Pretty sure I remember a Euro port by Ocean Software, and a US/JPN version by someone else, Taito themselves maybe?

Yup. Only played the Jap Taito version, and it's interesting, but it feels like a completely different game, with a super strange difficulty curve (mostly super easy stages and some insane spikes) and a different gameplay focus.
The Ocean one is probably a better port, but for a game like Rainbow Islands where every detail in how it controls and how the hitboxes work, etc. matters so much, I think the PC Engine one is the only really acceptable direct port.

The odd thing is that the SMS version of Rainbow Islands is a direct port of the US NES version. US NES version is similar to the JP version, but butchers the music. I heard most of the Ocean ports, including EU NES, don't have the extra stages.

Edit: Checked youtube and music was changed for SMS too.

[BIL]

Also sat down with The Ninja Warriors Again. Made it to the end of ST6 where the teleporting boss beat my ass. Getting a handle on the mechanics though, so will be going for the 1CC.

I'm so goddamn rusty I had to think which boss that was for a sec (st5 karate master, right?). His teleport looks scary, but if you see it coming, its recovery is a good grab opportunity. Grabs in general are strong as hell VS bosses, leveraged thus. Even the tiniest startup/recovery window will do. The grapple bites on lightning-quick, and throws open up a ton of i-frames.

Spoiler

^ boss wakeup invincibility is typically radioactive and not to be fucked with, but you can see how using the other enemies completely neutralises him. Might even be possible to nab him without them (I was figuring out some really aggressive grabs when I last put the game down), but it's a good way to dominate the room. Crowd complicates things, of course.

st5 is where crowd cycling really becomes a life/death matter. Things are a lot hairier with a Firebreather onscreen than without (as is the general rule with them), so you want to nail them ASAP while prolonging the bruisers'/katanas' survival where possible. Chucking the latter aside rather than nailing them with combos and slams helps. Toss does minimal damage, the resulting crowd knockdowns even less. An obscure but potentially useful trick is Kunoichi's shortest grapple flurry, the only thing in the game that knife grunts can survive (the full flurry is the game's strongest attack). Along similar lines, boxes and items occupy the same four-slot limit as enemies, which can be a useful corralling mechanic... st8 hangar onslaught in particular.

That particular boss also has a really aggressive advancing grab, which will nab blocking/retreating players but runs smack into a bit of P spam. Easy to catch him with a full combo off that.

Fucking hell, what a great game. Every scenario's brimming with details to cover. I feel like trying for that Kunoichi replay now, or just a better Ninja one. I was addicted to the false refuge of crouch P spam back then. Unless you're actively ducking a high attack, you're a lot better off using Stand's three-jab allowance and quicker speed to shrug a couple hits before wrapping your fist around the motherfucker's throat. Crouch = even the tiniest jab floors you and steals your meter. And Ninja can't crouch for shit anyway (Kunoichi's crouch P spam, OTOH, makes several enemies and bosses' lives hell, though nowhere to the extent of the outright EZMODE Kamaitachi).

[Obscura]

GOT THE NINJA GAIDEN 1CC!

No screenshot, because I switched emulators to RetroArch (got tired of Ultra FCE crashing on me every time I tried to quit), and apparently the printscreen key doesn't work with it correctly. D'oh! It was a pretty unremarkable final screen, P:01, only took the one mandatory hit from Jashin (down + b slash cancels make that fight so much easier, heh). Did 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3 twice; Jacquio barely got me, so I had to spin-slash him down.

Now I can remove the mental asterisk by my avatar in the first post

EDIT: BTW, just want to point out that I'm pretty sure I beat Blinge to it

[BIL]

HOW WILL BURINJU EVER RECOVER

Well done. I think I'll try killing Jashin without down+b next time...

...actually fuck, I didn't know about down+b until after starting this thread, when trap pointed it out on page 1! And I deliberately taunted in that crusty ol' replay too, if memory serves. Didn't teabag him though, didn't know about that either. What a communal learning experience it's been!

EDIT: yup... witness my artful dodging until I eat a hammer right when I could've taken the headbutt for a free pass.

TBH, hammer bros are among my favourite things about this game, so I guess I've a fatal attraction to everyone's favourite jumbo shrimp.

I always loved the thought of someone getting taken out by the mandatory headbutt. If it were 3HP, like his projectiles, I'd consider it a serious issue. Just the nip is hilarious though. "Hard cheese, old chum!" *BONK*

[BrianC]

I found out that Jaquio is called "Devildoer" in the hidden English setting of the infamous PCE Ninja Ryukenden.

[Blinge]

EDIT: BTW, just want to point out that I'm pretty sure I beat Blinge to it

Spoiler

i'm not actually working on NG atm tho

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The Ninja Warriors Once Again trailer. Co-op is a thing now.

Two new characters - Yaksha ("technical") and Raiden ("heavy"). Absolutely cannot wait to see Raiden in action.

[Sumez]

Not as good a title as TNWAA, but I'll buy it.