Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[Ed Oscuro]

Ed Oscuro: It would be nice if you "thought my posts out to their logical conclusion" and realized I'm unsatisfied with the game.

Well, that's not at all what I've said, and you've clearly missed the point I was trying to make.

Just to boil it down for you: Either the dev "thought things through" badly, or they didn't think it through, period. It's that simple. Nobody is talking about bugs. Saying it was an oversight and not willful genre-breaking seems charitable, too.

About the developers getting their feelings hurt - they're trying to sell a product. If somebody says "this is going to be the best steak ever, trust me" and they slap a piece of garnished spam on the plate, I think you're not going to say that the feelings of the head cook are going to be your top priority. In any case, this got turned into a tangent pretty quick. Nobody is accusing the developer of malfeasance at this point about the game design, but I think it is fair to say that they didn't take the game design seriously enough.

In any case, the best thing to do at this point is try to bury this particular discussion, because (as I think you're getting at) it doesn't really serve a purpose now. Results are the main thing that matters.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I played the demo again today and found myself enjoying it more. That said the random power up system breaks arcade insane mode for me, when I beat the first phase of the boss I didnt feel that I had accomplished something (as it is hard to beat) but that I was just lucky as I had managed to pick up 5 red orbs instead of 4. A couple of times I had only manage to collect 2 or 3 orbs and the boss was so much harder bordering on impossible as I needed to destroy parts of the boss asap to keep my timer running.

Also the continue system isnt a normal arcade continue, but an autosave. So if ive hardly any power ups when it saved im SOL

Considering the crux of the game is to destroy enemies asap to keep the timer filled, random power ups totally spoil it for anyone playing who is playing on a hard mode and struggling to beat the game. Considering most hardcore players want to challenge themselves I can see why ppl hate the game.

My WWE brawlstick was delivered today, Sina Mora wasnt a good game to test it out, Luckily I enjoy playing with the analog stick as unlike Geometry Wars 2 it doesnt have an retarded big deadzone setting and controls really well

And yeah those power ups need to bounce at the edge of the screen after taking a hit.

[Fu]

Sine Mora answered on their facebook page that they're going to take your feedbacks into account and apply patches accordingly. So, wait and see, I hope they're gonna make it a better game.

[Estebang]

It felt perfectly natural the first time I played DDP and saw the ship slow down when it used the laser. Focused attack, focused movement.

[Kiken]

A quick note on the medal chaining: if you let any medal pass off-screen, it resets the values to default, even if a medal of equal or greater value is still onscreen.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Sine Mora answered on their facebook page that they're going to take your feedbacks into account and apply patches accordingly. So, wait and see, I hope they're gonna make it a better game.

Thats great, hopefully they can seperate the negativity from the ppls initial reaction which might be overcome though practice and more important longterm gameplay issues.

For the record I did find the suicide bullets easier to track this time but I still did lose track of them at times. I think it probably wasnt only a case that I could see them easier but because I had internalised the pattern in my head and I wasnt 100% relying on what I was seeing onscreen

[wariomona]

I just hope that if they are patching for any non-glitch stuff being mentioned here that it's not going to radically change the game for those of us that are enjoying this. Like if they add something like visual hitboxes or digital movements that we can still play in the current way if we choose. Changes like new boss patterns, etc, that people are asking for are more than I feel should be added with a patch. That'd be like going through what's happening with Mass Effect 3 at the moment...

Looking forward to see Vally's replay. I haven't really learnt past stage 3 in arcade mode but I can tell some parts are gonna cause me problems (like the spinning laser maze boss )

Also, I think there might be a glitch with the achievements page?? Because it says I've 1cc'd Story mode when I really haven't... Best I did was 3cc (1 of which was from that random piano)

[littlenemo]

I just hope that if they are patching for any non-glitch stuff being mentioned here that it's not going to radically change the game for those of us that are enjoying this.

This.

Seriously guys.

The more I play the game, the more I enjoy it and the more it appears to me that every choices in the game design is coherent, smart and a wonderful mixture between old times mechanics (raizing chain medal/rank control with items, capsules and bombs) and new ones (the "fight against time", the using of capsules)

Ok the music sucks big time.
Ok some stages are unbalanced and remaining too much on the wonderful boss fights.

Maybe they should add a speed control using a stick, even regarding that point I have no problems playing the game with one. I play it much more with a Garegga/MMP feeling and since I am playing this way I find the game even more challenging and more Raizing stylish.

Random attacks with boss ? And so what ? I love that mechanic plus the more I am playing the more I feel the attacks forms are linked to rank or maybe to your primary target (focusing on the nasty cannon and killing it quickly seems to get the other ones to be nastier)
Random drops ? When I do a perfect run on a stage I have ALWAYS the same amount of items at the end of the stage (Did anyone said Raizing ?)

It seems to me that most people have played the ugly demo story mode for 5mns, got crazy and spammed every shmups blog on the planet without even TRYING TO PLAY THE GAME PROPERLY (buy the full version, play it arcade/hard, read the fucking manual)

What pisses me the most is probably the way that players want the game to fit their desires without even trying to embrace the game's mechanics nor its flow.
I would find it extremly sad for this generation to be the one where creators would become subject to angry facebook masses's urges, especially when those masses didn't take the time to pay attention to those creators's genuine desires, and especially when those masses consist of old bitter people needing that EVERY GAME SHOULD LOOK AND PLAY LIKE THE ONES THEY PLAYED WHEN THEY WERE 15 YEARS OLD.

Sorry for the unfair rant but I am pissed and in love

/angry old shmup player in love with Sine Mora that apologizes for his bad english and his french origins

[Iron Peach]

Two points:

Does this currently qualify as kusoge or not?

and

Let's discuss the meaning of value. Sine Mora was touted in trailers in an obvious visually enticing manner. For a visual experience with interactive elements, the price for the before said beautiful art style rivals a theatre outing, except with one only memories remain afterward, but this can be replayed at any time. I too am disappointed after months of steady anticipation that the entire presentation is different from my expectations, but verbatim, what was promised I believe was delivered. Now that this fox is picked to pieces, others can weigh its nuances to enjoy what it offers - or not... for my sweat and my effort which got me my money, this software is just as interesting as Killer 7.

[kid aphex]

Didn't see it mentioned...

I had a huge grand piano fall from the sky and kill me in Stage 1. Anyone else have this happen to them?

Edit- I see zaarock got it too, albeit in a different place. Weird. I know encountering it is part of the final achievement, but I'm curious what the requirements are to make it appear. I was playing VERY POORLY on my specific encounter... definitely not like zaarock's 1cc attempt.

[Udderdude]

Does this currently qualify as kusoge or not?

It's not that bad.

[evil_ash_xero]

I could see this being a much better game....I'm glad they're taking these posts into account. The music is BLAND, but you can't really expect them to do anything about that now. I would have never picked the Silent Hill guy to do music for a shmup. Interesting move, but still.

Right now, I'm not really digging it much at all. It's got problems. Hopefully the patch will resolve a lot of these.

I'm still angry that this is getting better reviews than DeathSmiles. I'm hoping it has more to do with DS being a full priced game, rather than it not having a story and 3D graphics. I would really hate to see shmups being another genre that westerners think they own and rule at, because they slap a nice story on it, with some movie like presentation. Seriously, western gaming critics, really have their head up their collective ass.
Come to think of it, Jamestown had better reviews than DeathSmiles. I think we might be thinking we're better than the JPs at STGs. Even though we're just kind of mimicking them, with slight alterations. And neither of these games are anywhere near DeathSmiles' quality.

[Alfred]

When i played this for the first time i thought it was a shit Euroshooter. Then i played it a bit more and i started to like it. It grows on you. Now that i put many more hours into it and know how the scoring system works i am loving this game. This is DR's first STG give them a break please. I hope you guys buy it.

One thing i would like looked at is ship speed and movement using xbox d-pad. It feels a bit off. I don't know whats wrong. Maybe slow down the ships speed?.

[bcass]

It was clearly designed for analogue input. Slowing the ship down to facilitate a digital stick/dpad would mess the game balance up even more.

If some of the gameplay related issues are indeed being looked at by the devs then maybe it would be a good idea to make them into a new game mode rather than replacing what's already there. One other annoying thing I found - I notice the game stops all downloads. There's no online play so I assume this is an oversight?

[Daigohji]

I'm disappointed at how many people seem to be dismissing this game after a handful of credits. Personally, I tend to prefer verts, so I'm surprised how much I like Sine Mora. I find it much more interesting than Soldner X2 or R-Type Final. The difficulty options and story/arcade modes offer a good spread for players of different persuasions. Granted, the game design isn't as tight as some from the perspective of mastering it, but I'd call the overall focus of Sine Mora gateway hardcore rather than outright casual.

I would like to see a version of arcade mode with fixed item drops rather than random, but I'd rather that was made an additional mode with its own leaderboard rather than changing the existing ones.

[littlenemo]

Slowing the ship down to facilitate a digital stick/dpad would mess the game balance up even more.

So true.
Plus the game is completely playable with an arcade stick, you just have to embrace the "Yagawa's nature" of the game, don't know if it's playable on long term challenge like big scoring with permanent rank A though

I REALLY think that all that has been said regarding the random nature of boss and items dropping is completely irrelevant.
There is such a Raizing flavor going on with that game, I don't see why all those qualities so much praised in Yagawa's jewels are becoming issues with Sine Mora

This is modern Battle Garegga horizontal, with gorgeous graphics, brilliant innovations like the time control, the use of capsules etc come on guys.
Edit : This is actually more than modern Battle Garegga, it's a try at melting 2 universe completely antagonist, Raizing shoot style and Gradius-R Type shoot style, while using new gameplay mechanics (time controle control, capsules) in order to make this coexist in harmony.
I am not saying it succeeds at everything it does, but what it does good is so well made.

The community has been so unfair, I would find it so sad that the patch to come would change the profound nature of the game just because some angry and zealous arcade-stick-sexual players with absolute no regard and interest in understanding what actually this game is want to play the game they need, and not the game that the devs actually wanted to make.

[Udderdude]

The top issues I'd deal with in a patch are

1. Bullet/collideable terrain visibility
2. Randomness
3. Powerups not bouncing off the sides of the screen
4. Digital controls

Anything other than that is just icing on the cake.

I doubt they would be able to patch in remappable controls at this point.

[Kiken]

Didn't see it mentioned...

I had a huge grand piano fall from the sky and kill me in Stage 1. Anyone else have this happen to them?

Edit- I see zaarock got it too, albeit in a different place. Weird. I know encountering it is part of the final achievement, but I'm curious what the requirements are to make it appear. I was playing VERY POORLY on my specific encounter... definitely not like zaarock's 1cc attempt.

I've been piano'd twice now. Once in Arcade Hard and once in Story Challenging. It's triggered by picking up a unique item.

[Tyjet]

Didn't see it mentioned...

I had a huge grand piano fall from the sky and kill me in Stage 1. Anyone else have this happen to them?

if you picked up an item labeled as ???, the piano will fall on you. I just had that happen to me now.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

if you picked up an item labeled as ???, the piano will fall on you. I just had that happen to me now.

So wait, what causes this item to come out? Is it random or something? This sounds like it'd be funny the first time, really fucking annoying every other time, especially if it ruined a score attack run.

[BAD]

What?! A Suda51 without bondage or convoluted humor?!

[Klatrymadon]

3. Powerups not bouncing off the sides of the screen

Was just thinking the same thing. If you get hit near the top or bottom edges, half of your power-ups are gone just by virtue of the way they fan out. Occasionally they'll stick together and look like a single orb, which is even more dangerous. Even if you only had one bounce before they floated away, it'd alleviate the bad luck aspect somewhat.

[Tyjet]

So wait, what causes this item to come out? Is it random or something? This sounds like it'd be funny the first time, really fucking annoying every other time, especially if it ruined a score attack run.

I think it's a random rare item that enemies drop when you kill them. It looks grey with "???" in it.

I see what you mean. Nice high score at stage 3 on insane mode, accidentally collect sudden death item because of limited space to move around due to suicide bullets. It should not be a pest if you let it float off the screen.

[Kiken]

One other thing I've noticed is that stage clear ranking is strictly based on Enemy Shot Down Percentage combined with No Miss (which obviously implies No Continue too) and perhaps overall rank level time, but definitely not score. For instance, getting a 100% Shot down in the first level with a score of 64 million netted me an S++, yet a score of 72 million with a 98% shot down netted me an S+, while a score of 85 million with a 97% shot down netted me an S.

[Ghegs]

Bought it and played through Story Mode and fiddled around in Arcade and Boss training modes.

It is a gorgeous game, no doubt about that. My favorites are the factory stage with mechs being built in the background, and the city stage where you can see so much of the beautiful locale in the background. Just lovely. I had a grin on my face when the huge mech did his sweeping laser attack, destroyed a few blocks and then jumped in front of me.

Seeing as I'm more of a horzie guy to start with I had no issues with the caves and the tunnels and such. Rock on, those were fun. The bit with the garbage confused me at first (I apparently hadn't paid attention to what was being said) but after I figured it out it felt like some solid stage design. The boss battles were also very nice and there's some very inventive ones in there.

Now, I must echo some of the sentiments others have presented and say that there is still room for improvement. This is mostly stuff that can no longer be patched in, so I hope if and when the devs start working on another shmup these are kept in mind.

I see what they were going for with the analog controls and people outside this forum probably won't even care, but I wish digital controls were a viable option. There were a few times where I died simply because I was trying to make a tiny adjustment to my craft's position, only to not move at all because I didn't push the analog stick out of the deadzone, even though the stick did move just slightly.

The limited time wasn't an issue in story mode so I didn't notice it there, but in arcade mode it became apparent. Dying due to time running out feels really annoying. I know, I know, "Well don't get hit and destroy enemies to get more time!". But the thing is, I don't think there should ever be a point in a shmup where you're pre-destined to fail. In a well-designed shmup, you can be on your last life without any power-ups and still come out the winner due to your own skill. Here, if you start a bossfight with just a few seconds on the clock...well, no way out, you're dead. That's not fun, and it feels like it's not your fault. (Though on the larger scale it is, of course.)

Powering up the main weapon is a chore, it takes too long and I don't think I ever got it to maximum level during the course of the story mode. Also, power-ups escaping outside the screen is bad, mmkay. Let them bounce around a few times, at least, Psikyo style. And random drops (if they are that) are bad, at least in Arcade and Score Attack modes. Props on having configurable powerup/secondary weapon/capsule settings for Boss Training, though. That's as it should be.

It felt weird that most hits just deduct time, but few kill you right away no matter how much time you have left. Such inconsistency is bad.

The remaining capsule power being shown only on the top right when your ship is mostly on the left half of the screen is bothersome. A more elegant solution would be, upon activation, showing the remaining power under or around your ship, ESP Galuda style.

Not being being able to shoot down missiles isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a bit unconventional. In most shmups missiles can be shot down. Though wasn't there some missiles here that can be shot down? At least depth charges and mines can be destroyed. Again, a bit inconsistent, they're all similarly physical attacks in my mind.

"What your bullets can hit, so can your ship and what your bullets can't hit, neither can your ship" is a crucial STG design rule that was broken here. The worms in the caves explode into bits that can hurt you, but your bullets go right through them. Papa Carlo's rock attack, bullets go through the rocks but they still hurt you. And I think in the factory stage I was able to shoot through one of the hand-cranes but still got hit when flying through it.

All that said...it's still a decent game. Good job. I can see why the mainstream reviews have been praising it. Hopefully you can create a sequel and make something that will enjoy the full acceptance of both the mainstream and the niche crowd.

[evil_ash_xero]

Oh..it has way too many fast forward-able scenes.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Man, I'm glad you posted that Ghegs. It's like suddenly hearing the voice of sanity in the middle of a crowd of nutters - genuine issues with implementation brought up, no whining about it not being a clone of something else.

Similarly, Udderdude's "four top issues" post is completely reasonable and lists about the only things that I would really want a patch to address, or even that a patch should or could address. Although I'm not all that fussed about the inclusion of digital control - I thought I'd dislike analogue, I don't, and that's very likely because the game has been built from the ground up with analogue movement as the intended way of playing. Bullet visability is probably my main gripe, as I'm finding it too difficult to make out missiles and 'realistic' bullets from the background when there's also the pink and blue variety hurtling towards me.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Someone posted this on another site, no idea if its true

I've been playing the story mode of this and it doesn't create a regular savegame file for progress/unlocks/scores - it just saves everything to the cache, which is weird. So DO NOT wipe your cache if you want to keep your unlocks and scores on Sine Mora!

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Isn't that an extremely stupid thing?

The cache doesn't exactly have a big limit on what can be in it. It could maybe be easy to overwrite it accidentally with patches and stuff.

[FMK]

Being playing this and making an effort to enjoy it, since it's so beautiful, but won't happen.