GamerGate - and it's continuing aftermath.

[evil_ash_xero]

'It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God.'
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

[Mischief Maker]

'It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God.'
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

Witcher 3 is still selling like hotcakes!

[Durandal]

The one thing I have to keep pointing out is that colleges are being pushed into this kind of behavior by vague new administrative rules with serious ramifications.

If a college is determined to be condoning sexual harassment by its staff, it is no longer eligible to receive billions in federal funds. A few years ago the Department of Education's definition of sexual harassment changed from a "reasonable person" analysis to "unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature." This unwelcome standard has the unintended consequence of giving colleges no clear idea where the line is drawn, that determination is entirely up to the recipient.

Wait, that revision has been made official since 2001. The push for safe spaces started circa 2010. Why is it only now that college administrations are changing the rules to broaden the definition of sexual harassment and concern themselves more with the safety of the students? It's not like there weren't any sexual harassment claims between the period of 2001-2011 either. I don't think colleges are suddenly being pushed into becoming PC-friendly because of some decade-old revision in the guidelines.

With billions of dollars on the line, they're overcompensating like a motherfucker to avoid any unwelcome speech, which has the consequence of scientists saying or wearing edgy things being hung out to dry. He wasn't crying because those angry tweets hurt his feelings, he was crying because those angry tweets put several of his colleagues' jobs in danger. If we were still on a reasonable person standard, his shirt would have been a non-issue, third-wave feminism or not.

You don't think there would have been little to no outrage because of his choice of attire if third-wave feminism wasn't as popular? It's not like he expressed any controversial opinions or appeared half-naked on television. And it's not like his shirt was that offensive either. The guy worked for bloody ESA and landed a satellite on a comet. You think he's just going to be fired from a high-profile job because he chose to wear the wrong shirt in front of public television?

Outrage exhibitionism is nothing new, what do you think The Revolution Will Not be Televised was talking about in 1970? Your enemy here is not SJWs, it's sloppy administrative rule drafting.

But then, that's not as much fun as wringing your hands with stories of blue-haired and pink-jackbooted hordes coming to sweep away all your moe hentai, is it?

Bad parenting does not necessarily exclude the possibility of the child just being an annoying brat at heart.

'It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God.'
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

Witcher 3 is still selling like hotcakes!

Come on, that's a false equivalence and you know it. You don't think TW3 selling over a million copies has anything to do with being praised to high heavens by nearly every press outlet (aside from it's misogynistic portrayal of women, of course), being marketed nearly everywhere, and being hyped up by mustards and RPG fans all over the internet?
I wish my hentai titty simulators got more attention than a denigrating press review.

[Mischief Maker]

Wait, that revision has been made official since 2001.

So it was. My mistake, I was relying on this oft-linked Atlantic article that put the date at 2013.

'It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God.'
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

Witcher 3 is still selling like hotcakes!

Come on, that's a false equivalence and you know it. You don't think TW3 selling over a million copies has anything to do with being praised to high heavens by nearly every press outlet (aside from it's misogynistic portrayal of women, of course), being marketed nearly everywhere, and being hyped up by mustards and RPG fans all over the internet?
I wish my hentai titty simulators got more attention than a denigrating press review.

The Witcher games fucking EARNED their praise. Even if you excised the tits, they'd still be solid products. DOA volleyball is notoriously so simplistic you can play with one hand. Maybe, just maybe, DOA volleyball no longer has novelty on its side and their market niche has dried up due to superior competition.

[Durandal]

Witcher 3 is still selling like hotcakes!

Come on, that's a false equivalence and you know it. You don't think TW3 selling over a million copies has anything to do with being praised to high heavens by nearly every press outlet (aside from it's misogynistic portrayal of women, of course), being marketed nearly everywhere, and being hyped up by mustards and RPG fans all over the internet?
I wish my hentai titty simulators got more attention than a denigrating press review.

The Witcher games fucking EARNED their praise. Even if you excised the tits, they'd still be solid products. DOA volleyball is notoriously so simplistic you can play with one hand.

I think you're missing the point here. I was trying to point out that TW3 managed to be a commercial success because of its AAA marketing budget (as if quality guarantees sales for AAA titles anymore) despite receiving criticism from PC bloggers/journalists for its sexual content, while niche games have to survive through word of mouth and Japanese publishers are more likely to listen to journalists sick and tired of its unacceptable content. I'm not arguing that DoA Volleyball isn't anything but a casual sports kusoge laden with fanservice and that TW3 didn't receive it's praise.

Maybe, just maybe, DOA volleyball no longer has novelty on its side and their market niche has dried up due to superior competition.

KT said themselves they didn't want to deal with any outrage because of all the ongoing discussions concerning treatment of women in the media, in the West. Why is that such a hard pillow to swall? DoAX Volleyball 1 and DoAX Volleyball 2 both sold three times as much overseas compared to Japan. While the total amount of sales decreased with the second installment, it would not make sense from a financial standpoint to not release it overseas when they have always sold three times as much in the West.
If anything, Dead or Alive 5: Last Round Core Fighters recently broke 5 million downloads worldwide, which, for a free-to-play title, does show significant interest in the DoA franchise.

[Skykid]

Guys, I had an epiphany.

Essentially if third wave feminism were to grow and continue to grow exponentially, it would tally that the snubbing of men would increase as would the confidence of men to approach women. This would result in an outcome where:

1: Women deter men from approaching them
2: Men approach women less

Should third wave feminism grow to such a degree as to make men feel marginalised as a gender, the following social ramifications would be:

1: A decline in birth rates
2: A decline in marriages
3: An increase in divorce
4: An increase in rapes and other violent sexual offences
5: An increase in homosexuality amongst males

Some decades after, in a not too distant future, men would be emasculated to the degree where they are no longer in a position to initiate gender relations.

The upshot of all of this? If we wait twenty-years, it will be a woman's responsibility to approach men in bars and other social venues instead of the other way around! Yay!

Every cloud with a silver lining. Set your alarm clock for 2035.

[Durandal]

In the inevitable hedonistic future, we will teach machines how to be women, and the machines will teach us how to be men. We wouldn't need the other gender anymore.

[Opus131]

Wasn't Tim Hunt outwardly sexist and said something about female scientists that his employers couldn't cope with?

No. He was making a joke and the ogre who reported him omitted the part that made that clear:

http://unfashionista.com/2015/07/07/the ... e-process/

But even so, what was wrong with what he said, even if he meant it? Aren't women and men different? Are we criminalizing nature now, and people who recognize reality for what it is? Because that's precisely what is happening. The progressive left has come up with a world view that flies against both the facts and how the universe works and are trying to make people morally and now even criminally accountable for taking cognizance of the way things are. Tim Hunt's only crime, even if he did mean what he said, was wrong think. And this is a man who made significant contributions to science. Imagine somebody firing Einstein for making a "sexist" remark. Political correctness is really a religion at this point, and the crazy ideologues are on a which hunt for transgressors and sinners, to the point even their own isn't safe. Remember when they attacked Joss Whedon?

[Mischief Maker]

Guys, I had an epiphany.

Essentially if third wave feminism were to grow and continue to grow exponentially, it would tally that the snubbing of men would increase as would the confidence of men to approach women. This would result in an outcome where:

1: Women deter men from approaching them
2: Men approach women less

Should third wave feminism grow to such a degree as to make men feel marginalised as a gender, the following social ramifications would be:

1: A decline in birth rates
2: A decline in marriages
3: An increase in divorce
4: An increase in rapes and other violent sexual offences
5: An increase in homosexuality amongst males

Some decades after, in a not too distant future, men would be emasculated to the degree where they are no longer in a position to initiate gender relations.

The upshot of all of this? If we wait twenty-years, it will be a woman's responsibility to approach men in bars and other social venues instead of the other way around! Yay!

Every cloud with a silver lining. Set your alarm clock for 2035.

This thread is getting too wacky, even for me. I'm out!

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

^Tim Hunt was basically Donglegate II: The Dongleing.

@Skykid: I like your vision but if the Rollo Tomassi/replayme theories are to be believed (they certainly reflect 99% of my lived experience) then by 2035, women will be content to chase only the top 1% of guys while us betas complain about it on /R9k/

[Icarus]

1: Women deter men from approaching them
2: Men approach women less

This sort of reminds me of carnivorous women, the idea of women being the initiator of relationships in a society where men became more docile and passive for a variety of reasons.

[evil_ash_xero]

From the mouth of Shuhei Yoshida, himself. Hopefully people will just accept that the "climate" that has been made by SJWs, is causing not only censorship, but games not being made available here.
I'm sure they'll keep saying "uh, it wasn't us! You're paranoid!". And just keep yakking about it, article after article, and all over Twitter.

He's talking about DOAX3 at first, but the second quote is about Dragon's Crown.


“It’s due to cultural differences. The West has it’s own thinking about how to depict women in games media which is different from Japan […] Speaking personally, if it is a representation acceptable to the general people in Japan, I wouldn’t be concerned about it in Japan. It’s a difficult problem.”

“I loved Dragon’s Crown, but that title got some criticism. And it got extremely low points in [some] reviews.”

[BulletMagnet]

Got a link to the full article, for context?

As for Dragon's Crown, I seem to recall that one particular outlet (which was immediately selected to serve as sole representative for all of game journalism) knocked the game's score significantly for its art style, but most everyone else stuck to "the physiques might be a bit much, but the game is good", if even that. Feel free to link if I'm forgetting something.

[evil_ash_xero]

Got a link to the full article, for context?

As for Dragon's Crown, I seem to recall that one particular outlet (which was immediately selected to serve as sole representative for all of game journalism) knocked the game's score significantly for its art style, but most everyone else stuck to "the physiques might be a bit much, but the game is good", if even that. Feel free to link if I'm forgetting something.

Yeah, the Dragon's Crown thing was a bit of a surprise to me. I remember it having way too much controversy, but most people reviewed it fine. I do think one or two of the usual suspects knocked it, for it's art though.

As for the link: http://nichegamer.com/2015/12/dead-or-a ... sony-boss/

However, the main article which is from 4gamer, is in Japanese. So, the only parts that are in English, are the two quotes I posted.
I couldn't find a full translation. Maybe it's out there.

Here is the original article: http://www.4gamer.net/games/251/G025118/20151208064/

[undamned]

'It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God.'
- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

Humans don't change much. Throw in technology & accessibility and get your popcorn ready.
-ud

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953)

One of my favourite authors. His short stories are amazing stuff, too, and in the afterword of the edition of Fahrenheit 451 he actually talks about how he had SJWs complaining his stories didn't have enough blacks in them, racists complaining his stories had too many blacks in them, women's groups complaining why there weren't more women in his stories, and what a load of nonsense it is to focus on that. Not everything has to always have equal representation, or you end up with token characters thrown in purely for 'diversity'. How silly it would be if we stopped playing certain theatrical plays that had all male or all female casts in the name of 'equality', etc.

I was always really irritated in high school when my teacher introduced Fahrenheit 451 as a novel about censorship. It had nothing really to do with censorship; the book burning was merely a symptom of society's decision to do away with intelligent, thoughtful media and content itself with mindless entertainment, not the primary cause of society's decline. It was more a book about what happens when people content themselves with vapid, inane garbage for entertainment, and refuse to read/watch/listen to anything that might challenge their thoughts or ideas.

[Squire Grooktook]

Bradbury <3

His short stories are indeed amazing. Particularly fond of Frost and Fire, though there are too many other favorites to list.

[Skykid]

You Bradbury fans owe it to yourselves to seek out Charles Beaumont's short stories, what little there are. Absolutely incredible. You may not believe me, but some of his stuff tops Bradbury, and I'm aware how bold a claim that is.

This one is dark as hell and will literally blow your mind:

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll put it on the list

[Mischief Maker]

Oh, gamergate thread, I wish I could quit you...

I was always really irritated in high school when my teacher introduced Fahrenheit 451 as a novel about censorship. It had nothing really to do with censorship; the book burning was merely a symptom of society's decision to do away with intelligent, thoughtful media and content itself with mindless entertainment, not the primary cause of society's decline. It was more a book about what happens when people content themselves with vapid, inane garbage for entertainment, and refuse to read/watch/listen to anything that might challenge their thoughts or ideas.

So we fight against that encroaching vapidity with Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball 3?

[Opus131]

It is the principle of the thing that counts.

[Durandal]

An interesting debate concerning censoring art to uphold our current morals and values:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ijksmuseum

[Skykid]

It is the principle of the thing that counts.

Precisely: the point is no censorship at all. Think of DOAX3 less as a piece of gaming trash and more as a product providing a service. If a man (or woman) reaches orgasm over DOAX3, then its audacious display of T&A has had meaning to exist. Simply, if it serves somebody somewhere in some way, it has some meaning, no matter how insignificant or perverse.

Would you censor pornography? They're very much on the same lines. Titillating material made to sexually stimulate and in many case, provide a means to an end or an outlet, with little actual substance or artistic resonance.

I won't be getting my rocks off to it, but I'll defend your right to a five knuckle shuffle if it's what floats your boat.

[Mischief Maker]

But it's not censorship! It's perhaps a misreading of the marketplace, but Tecmo still has the full freedom to localize or not localize as they see fit. If they're walking away from money because they're afraid of getting their feelings hurt by angry tweets, they're shitty businessmen. Can George Lucas blame Redlettermedia for his decision to sell Star Wars to Disney? Can Warner Brothers sue Skykid for posting mean shit about Man of Steel?

This thread is moving beyond protesting pay-for-play practices and into the first amendment issue of "dangerous ideas" that must be stopped! The existence of Polygon and Kotaku does not prevent anyone from creating a brand new review site focusing on no-nonsense gameplay-centered reviews. Clearly there are some gamerz out there who want game reviews by people who are humorless cunts when it comes to women's issues, why can't they have that?

Fight speech with speech, you pussies!

[evil_ash_xero]

Here's some interesting reading.

The main bit, is that Tim Hunt is leaving the UK, for Japan. Glad he's going to get some work. Too bad the West is getting this nuts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ities.html

[Durandal]

But it's not censorship!

Because it's self-censorship, does not make it censorship? This is why I'm more prone to saying cultural appropriation or culturalization instead of censorship, but everyone else has to bring up semantics to make things seem less worse then they actually are.
Consider this, when you localize your game, you have four choices what to do when you're about to release your game overseas.
1. Don't change anything (although some things inevitably don't translate well)
2. Change some elements because it simply doesn't match your vision (this is usually only possible when your game is still in development)
3. Change some elements to make it more appealing to overseas audiences (For example, in the Western version of NieR, the main protagonist was changed from a young teenage brother character to an older rugged father character. The reasoning for this that in the West the bonds between parents and children tend to be stronger than bonds between siblings, as opposed to in Japan. Games like Bioshock and TLoU are pretty indicative of this. Nobody in the West would have been upset if they played as Brother Nier, but if you ask most Western games, they would have preferred playing as Papa Nier)
4. Change some elements to avoid outrage in other regions (the recent buttslap debacle, for instance)
Guess which one of these people are upset about happening. If it's not censorship, and if games from other regions are not being altered because they have to fit our cultural values and standards, then what is it?

It's perhaps a misreading of the marketplace, but Tecmo still has the full freedom to localize or not localize as they see fit. If they're walking away from money because they're afraid of getting their feelings hurt by angry tweets, they're shitty businessmen.

No arguments here.

This thread is moving beyond protesting pay-for-play practices and into the first amendment issue of "dangerous ideas" that must be stopped!

Is anyone here calling for the dismantling or banning of a particular ideology?

The existence of Polygon and Kotaku does not prevent anyone from creating a brand new review site focusing on no-nonsense gameplay-centered reviews. Clearly there are some gamerz out there who want game reviews by people who are humorless cunts when it comes to women's issues, why can't they have that?

Sites like ChristCenteredGamer exist, but they have the decency to put their 'morality score' seperate from how the score of the game itself. Subtracting some points from the general score because you thought it was morally objectionable, like the Sony CEO mentioned, is IMO a shitty thing to do. Especially if your score gets counted amongst the average Metacritic score of a game. Nobody minds if you start a review site where everyone loves dogs, but if you say that a game is objectively worse because it has no dogs in it and/or features cats more prominently, then you can quite frankly fuck off. An ethically conscious reviewer would say 'this game is okay, but it has alot of cats, and I don't like cats. But if you really like cats, then you should also probably like this game.'

Fight speech with speech, you pussies!

Blocked.

[Skykid]

"Christ centered gamer"

...

[BulletMagnet]

Because it's self-censorship, does not make it censorship?

That's the thing, though - what exactly is the difference between what could very well be a purely business-oriented decision and what must be self-censorship, aside from whether or not you personally agree with said decision? How can you possibly tell if a developer has toned down the cheesecake factor because of early fan reactions as opposed to fembloggers, especially when a) Their much-ballyhooed statements on the matter could be referring to either, and b) The latter seem largely unaware their product even exists? You pretty much have to go into the conversation already believing that "the terrorists have won" to arrive at the starting point you're at, and thereafter stand almost entirely unwilling to judge a particular instance on its own merits, since, well, all the honest folks already know what's really going on here.

Seriously, this isn't a good-faith debate, it's Buttslap Trutherism, and a self-serving "solution" desperately seeking a problem.

[Hagane]

I expected to get a good laugh out of that christian site, but it's actually surpisingly decent. Good reviews for Falcom stuff, Dark Souls, etc. As Durandal says the moral objections are kept as a separate score (things like The Witcher 3 get good scores despite strong moral criticism), and as far as I've seen the reviewers are above mainstream gaming site levels.

[evil_ash_xero]

Because it's self-censorship, does not make it censorship?

That's the thing, though - what exactly is the difference between what could very well be a purely business-oriented decision and what must be self-censorship, aside from whether or not you personally agree with said decision? How can you possibly tell if a developer has toned down the cheesecake factor because of early fan reactions as opposed to fembloggers, especially when a) Their much-ballyhooed statements on the matter could be referring to either, and b) The latter seem largely unaware their product even exists? You pretty much have to go into the conversation already believing that "the terrorists have won" to arrive at the starting point you're at, and thereafter stand almost entirely unwilling to judge a particular instance on its own merits, since, well, all the honest folks already know what's really going on here.

Seriously, this isn't a good-faith debate, it's Buttslap Trutherism, and a self-serving "solution" desperately seeking a problem.

You know, that's a good point. But I really don't see ANY fans getting "offended" about the butt slap. It just seem like fans, and journalists are on two whole wave lengths, when it comes to this.
I get the vibe that the Japanese companies are paying too much attention to them, and maybe NeoGAF.

I just take a lot of offense to them affecting policy, rather than the gamers themselves. Especially when the journalist show a lot of disdain for said fans.