Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

[Eaglet]

The thing is though, most players who would consider giving "challenging" games a try also hate being patronised.
Which is exactly how most of these people feel when given auto-bombs, varying difficulty etc.

I do not take these statements out of my ass. I work part time at a store that deals in retro games, has a café and an arcade with fighters and STG's. It's absolutely wonderful.
The most popular shooters are without a doubt; Ketsui, Daioujou and Battle Garegga. And when i say popular i mean just as popular with the maniacs (myself included) as with the casuals who credit feed.
None of these have any sort of extra leniency whatsoever.

The ones who prefer Deathsmiles, ESPGaluda, DFK are mostly the same types of people who like Touhou for their "characters" and "story".
Deathsmiles is popular with this crowd only for the perceived absurdity of "cute witches" dodging large amounts of bullets.
And of course; Mary the Cow.

[Illyrian]

That's interesting that you put it like that.

Of course if that was the case no-one would ever 2-all dfk would they? By your logic they are all casuals. Personally my experience with this forum is that the people who play DFK do it because it's enjoyable.

I would also be interested to know how many of your battle garegga credit feeders are playing it because that's the one they enjoy the most and how many play it because their shmup playing friends push them to.

Maybe you'd like to go take a look at the deathsmiles high score thread and see how many of them just like the game for the absurdity of witches dodging bullets? Personally, being a rubbish shmup player who started in the genre by playing Touhou games, my brief flirtation with deathsmiles was based around it being in my local arcade, with 4-5 other people playing it, and I thought Tyrannosatan was the best name for a boss ever. I got bored of it because I couldn't be bothered to learn to recharge and score some proper points, not because I got bored of Follett's sideboob bathtub ending.

Don't make silly generalisations dude.

[IseeThings]

There's something satisfying about the games listed, and while personally I'd bracket ESPgal with the first lot (I find the play mechanic a lot of fun) I guess maybe the style puts some off.

The SH3 games are heavy on the eye-candy, everything glowing all over the place, massively over the top weaponry yet are lacking IMHO in both style and that 'satisfaction' factor.

The excessively used flashy blending effects at the low resolution the SH3 board puts out actually look amateurish, I've said before they remind me of a "my first direct 3d" project where you realise you can spam absurd numbers glowing particles everywhere without putting the slightest stress on your PC. Ketsui and DOJ were *refined* in their style and despite the lower capabilities* of the board looked a lot more professional, and as I said, satisfying in the gameplay department.

* technically the PGM board can output a higher resolution, but lacks any of the blendy flashy stuff.

It's hard to quantify where that 'satisfaction' comes from. I'm a casual player when it comes to shooters, so why would Ketsui, Garegga, and especially DOJ appeal to me when many people consider them to be brutal 'hardcore' games?

My favourite game on the SH3 system by far is tama...

[Eaglet]

I would also be interested to know how many of your battle garegga credit feeders are playing it because that's the one they enjoy the most and how many play it because their shmup playing friends push them to.

The ones i group in "casuals/credit feeders" are those who just drop in with their GF because they think the store looks nice or a couple of guys out drinking.
With Garegga i think it is the slightly more "old school" (biplanes etc.) aesthetics that appeal to more people and their sense of what a "shooter" is.
There have been a lot of people thinking Garegga is some sort of sequel to 1942.

Maybe you'd like to go take a look at the deathsmiles high score thread and see how many of them just like the game for the absurdity of witches dodging bullets?

Hehe, that last quote was mostly about the casuals playing Deathsmiles and how they differ from the casuals playing the other games.
The amount of money they put in differs too. A DS casual usually puts in 1-2 credits and gets his dose of whatever it is he wants while the PGM/Raizing-casuals credit feed through the game.
Remember, this is what i've seen personally.
Not ragging on DS either. It was my first CAVE clear.

I got bored of it because I couldn't be bothered to learn to recharge and score some proper points, not because I got bored of Follett's sideboob bathtub ending.

That already puts you in the "maniac" crowd.
The casuals don't even bother to "power up" much less learn the mechanics of the game.

Don't make silly generalisations dude.

But i love to make silly generalisations!

[dan76]

I'd prefer Cave to go back to making more difficult shooters, where getting to the stage 3 boss gave you some sense of achievement - there was a time when a Cave clear meant something. When I started playing these games a 1CC seemed almost impossible, then you learn that there's a scoring system as well and you have a game that can take a lifetime to master.

Having auto-bomb is a cheap way of making a difficult game accessible, and having an easy clear with increasingly convoluted scoring systems isn't the way to go either - but the choice of 3 different modes (Mushi) or a selectable difficulty (Deathsmiles) is a trade off in keeping the game as "we" would like them and allowing new players to get a grip, and it seemed to work for those games in the arcades.

I don't really see how handing a 1CC to a new player - there by robbing them of a sense of achievement - is necessarily going to make them interested in the intricacies of a complicated scoring system and keep them playing, certainly not in the west anyhow. Edit: Scoring should be linked to survival!

Back OT, I hope the survival challenge is there for this game (as I can't stand chaining).

[Foreign Extra]

There's something satisfying about the games listed, and while personally I'd bracket ESPgal with the first lot (I find the play mechanic a lot of fun) I guess maybe the style puts some off.

The SH3 games are heavy on the eye-candy, everything glowing all over the place, massively over the top weaponry yet are lacking IMHO in both style and that 'satisfaction' factor.

The excessively used flashy blending effects at the low resolution the SH3 board puts out actually look amateurish, I've said before they remind me of a "my first direct 3d" project where you realise you can spam absurd numbers glowing particles everywhere without putting the slightest stress on your PC. Ketsui and DOJ were *refined* in their style and despite the lower capabilities* of the board looked a lot more professional, and as I said, satisfying in the gameplay department.

* technically the PGM board can output a higher resolution, but lacks any of the blendy flashy stuff.

It's hard to quantify where that 'satisfaction' comes from. I'm a casual player when it comes to shooters, so why would Ketsui, Garegga, and especially DOJ appeal to me when many people consider them to be brutal 'hardcore' games?

My favourite game on the SH3 system by far is tama...

Your just trolling right?

I think DFK looks amazing, not ameturish in any way at all. The neon colours are a lot more interesting to look at than anything the PGM games had to offer. The satisfaction in these games comes from beating your old score by the skin of your teeth or even better blowing it away and seeing how much longer you can last. I play with a friend and we compete for score, it's a lot of fun.

DOJ does seem to have something over the newer games, that I can't dispute but the newer games do at least try new things and IMHO succeed. To call them less professional looking I think is a bit unfair.

[Special World]

The only Cave games I think of as easier are the Deathsmiles series and the first ESPgaluda. There doesn't really seem to be any overarching trend, imo.

[Vamos]

Its "you're" and no he isnt trolling and all the points are valid .

[Illyrian]

I'd prefer Cave to go back to making more difficult shooters, where getting to the stage 3 boss gave you some sense of achievement - there was a time when a Cave clear meant something. When I started playing these games a 1CC seemed almost impossible, then you learn that there's a scoring system as well and you have a game that can take a lifetime to master.

Having auto-bomb is a cheap way of making a difficult game accessible, and having an easy clear with increasingly convoluted scoring systems isn't the way to go either - but the choice of 3 different modes (Mushi) or a selectable difficulty (Deathsmiles) is a trade off in keeping the game as "we" would like them and allowing new players to get a grip, and it seemed to work for those games in the arcades.

I don't really see how handing a 1CC to a new player - there by robbing them of a sense of achievement - is necessarily going to make them interested in the intricacies of a complicated scoring system and keep them playing, certainly not in the west anyhow. Edit: Scoring should be linked to survival!

Back OT, I hope the survival challenge is there for this game (as I can't stand chaining).

I agree for the most part, SDJ seems to link survival/scoring quite well from the limited footage we have seen. I actually dont agree that starting people with an easy 1cc robs them of a sense of accomplishment though. I think it is nice for games to have multiple difficulties etc as when you get your first clear you can feel good that you did it, but still know there is much more to learn and do
i

[IseeThings]

There's something satisfying about the games listed, and while personally I'd bracket ESPgal with the first lot (I find the play mechanic a lot of fun) I guess maybe the style puts some off.

The SH3 games are heavy on the eye-candy, everything glowing all over the place, massively over the top weaponry yet are lacking IMHO in both style and that 'satisfaction' factor.

The excessively used flashy blending effects at the low resolution the SH3 board puts out actually look amateurish, I've said before they remind me of a "my first direct 3d" project where you realise you can spam absurd numbers glowing particles everywhere without putting the slightest stress on your PC. Ketsui and DOJ were *refined* in their style and despite the lower capabilities* of the board looked a lot more professional, and as I said, satisfying in the gameplay department.

* technically the PGM board can output a higher resolution, but lacks any of the blendy flashy stuff.

It's hard to quantify where that 'satisfaction' comes from. I'm a casual player when it comes to shooters, so why would Ketsui, Garegga, and especially DOJ appeal to me when many people consider them to be brutal 'hardcore' games?

My favourite game on the SH3 system by far is tama...

Your just trolling right?

No, I actually think the over-user of blending all the SH3 games do looks absolutely terrible. Subtle use of blending can look amazing (Fluffy clouds in 1945 II) but when half the screen is glowing as Cave have done it's an eyesore. Obviously other opinions differ, but I think Cave have lost the art of making things subtle but beautiful at the same time and find it detracts from the actual game.

A fair number of early 360 games suffered from the same fate, developers realised they could put specular type effects on everything, so did, more recent releases have toned that down... The earlier Cave stuff just feels more 'mature'

I think a lot of it reminds me of the 'loudness war' in music, whereby everything is so full-on all the time that all the fancy stuff just seems like noise, and isn't impressive because of the complete lack of dynamics in the presentation, just full on eyesore visual assault. Glow / blending could instead be used to make a special moment special...

[Eaglet]

You, Sir, know what it's all about.

[SuperPang]

Ever played an SH-3 PCB on a CGA monitor IseeThings?

[Hagane]

Which is exactly how most of these people feel when given auto-bombs, varying difficulty etc.

By "varying difficulty" you mean selectable difficulty modes? If so, there's nothing wrong at all with those, as long as the highest difficulty setting is challenging and well designed.

[IseeThings]

Ever played an SH-3 PCB on a CGA monitor IseeThings?

I've played them on a variety of different screens, from original cabinet to PC Monitor as well as an old TV (with the 360 port of DS)

While it's true the low resolution graphics do look *better* on a non TFT/LCD monitor that doesn't prevent the style from being an eyesore IMHO.

Quality art cannot be replaced with cheap effects.

It's probably where a fair amount of the satisfaction is lost too, when something impressive does happen, it doesn't seem as impressive because you're mentally already trying to filter out all the effects anyway rather than being surprised and impressed by them when they are used.

[Eaglet]

Case in point: Laser turrets in Battle Garegga.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqtU86hSfJg 2:40

Might not look that impressive on an LCD, but on a 29" CRT the extremely high bright gain on the lasers makes the screen "flutter" around the beams. Because of the tube.
Excellent use of programming and incredibly impressive. My jaw fell to the floor first time i saw it. Looked like the laser was gonna burn its way out of the screen.

[Dave_K.]

What I like is my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Even though my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Therefore my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, region free, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Well I think your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter.

STFU newb! My opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more!

(BTW: this is not directed at any individual, just how this thread reads to me in general.)

[Drachenherz]

What I like is my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Even though my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Therefore my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, region free, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters, my opinion matters.

Well I think your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter.

STFU newb! My opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more, my opinion matters more!

(BTW: this is not directed at any individual, just how this thread reads to me in general.)

You are clearly wrong, because my opinions matters more, matters more...

Etc. etc. bla bla bla ad infinitum...

Edit: This is directly directed at you to insult you insultingly!

[Erppo]

Please explain me where does the "Cave games have no survival challenge anymore" myth comes from.

Looking back from the most recent one:

Akai Katana: Ok, this one is easy to clear
DFK BL: Strong
Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.
Deathsmiles MBL: 999
DFK: Power
Futari BL: God
Deathsmiles: With all the hardest choices still above normal
Muchi Muchi Pork!: Everything loop related is extremely brutal
Futari: Ultra
Pink Sweets: If the game really isn't enough for you there's also Harder
...
...
...
Espgaluda: Oh hey, finally another easy game!

[Annoyboy]

Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.

DSIIX really is completely devoid of challenge. Most people should be able to 1CC on their first try by selecting the lower levels, but even if you play the whole game selecting level 3 every time, it's still easier than the first DeathSmiles. Seriously, people say Daifukkatsu 1.5 C-Strong is an easy clear, but that took me like a week of playing. I'd 1CCd DSIIX within less than an hour of breaking the seal on it.

I'm hoping SDOJ ends up being around the difficulty of Futari 1.5 Original, which for me feels possible but only after putting in a lot of time. I don't want baby mode but I also wouldn't be happy with something as hard as Pink Sweets. Selectable difficulty levels are fine as long as the easiest one isn't insulting, and the most difficult one isn't completely unfair. I want a challenge, but I want a challenge that doesn't feel hopeless. Having said that, I secretly want this to somehow end up with a 360 release, as I don't want any of the next-gen consoles. -_-

[TonK]

Please explain me where does the "Cave games have no survival challenge anymore" myth comes from.

Looking back from the most recent one:

Akai Katana: Ok, this one is easy to clear
DFK BL: Strong
Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.
Deathsmiles MBL: 999
DFK: Power
Futari BL: God
Deathsmiles: With all the hardest choices still above normal
Muchi Muchi Pork!: Everything loop related is extremely brutal
Futari: Ultra
Pink Sweets: If the game really isn't enough for you there's also Harder
...
...
...
Espgaluda: Oh hey, finally another easy game!

Shit, I must suck.

I can't play those on the levels mentioned.

Still had fun clearing them the easy way.

Let's see...

CLEARED - Akai Katana: Ok, this one is easy to clear
CLEARED - (POWER) DFK BL: Strong
CLEARED - Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.
CLEARED - (Normal Level 3's) Deathsmiles MBL: 999
CLEARED - (Bomb, Strong) DFK: Power
CLEARED - (Normal) Futari BL: God
CLEARED - (I'm actually good at this) Deathsmiles: With all the hardest choices still above normal
NOT CLEARED - Muchi Muchi Pork!: Everything loop related is extremely brutal
CLEARED - (Normal) Futari: Ultra
WILL NEVER CLEAR (lol) - Pink Sweets: If the game really isn't enough for you there's also Harder
...
...
...
NOT CLEARED - ESPGaluda: Oh hey, finally another easy game!

[TonK]

Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.

DSIIX really is completely devoid of challenge. Most people should be able to 1CC on their first try by selecting the lower levels, but even if you play the whole game selecting level 3 every time, it's still easier than the first DeathSmiles. Seriously, people say Daifukkatsu 1.5 C-Strong is an easy clear, but that took me like a week of playing. I'd 1CCd DSIIX within less than an hour of breaking the seal on it.

I'm hoping SDOJ ends up being around the difficulty of Futari 1.5 Original, which for me feels possible but only after putting in a lot of time. I don't want baby mode but I also wouldn't be happy with something as hard as Pink Sweets. Selectable difficulty levels are fine as long as the easiest one isn't insulting, and the most difficult one isn't completely unfair. I want a challenge, but I want a challenge that doesn't feel hopeless. Having said that, I secretly want this to somehow end up with a 360 release, as I don't want any of the next-gen consoles. -_-

I would be happy with a difficulty just above Futari 1.5 Original.

I really, really had to work for that clear.

One of the most satisfying clears for me.

I've come so close in DOJ - that is a good difficulty to stick with.

[Foreign Extra]

Its "you're"

kthxbai

You are clearly wrong, because my opinions matters more, matters more...

Etc. etc. bla bla bla ad infinitum...

Edit: This is directly directed at you to insult you insultingly!

Indeed!

[Skykid]

Please explain me where does the "Cave games have no survival challenge anymore" myth comes from.

Looking back from the most recent one:

Akai Katana: Ok, this one is easy to clear
DFK BL: Strong
Deathsmiles II: Can't comment on this, since I haven't played it. I understand it's really easy though.
Deathsmiles MBL: 999
DFK: Power
Futari BL: God
Deathsmiles: With all the hardest choices still above normal
Muchi Muchi Pork!: Everything loop related is extremely brutal
Futari: Ultra
Pink Sweets: If the game really isn't enough for you there's also Harder
...
...
...
Espgaluda: Oh hey, finally another easy game!

They're all still challenging survival wise, bar a few, but you need re-examine your list based on default settings. If anyone is going to make a new/old comparisons, it's going to be on defaults, since earlier games like Kets, DOJ, Esp didn't have the option, and even Mushi was a relative one off in 2004.

I think it's really just DS, MBL, DS2, DFK & AK that can be looked at as softening up, everything else is still a good old challenge imo.

[Erppo]

They're all still challenging survival wise, bar a few, but you need re-examine your list based on default settings. If anyone is going to make a new/old comparisons, it's going to be on defaults, since earlier games like Kets, DOJ, Esp didn't have the option, and even Mushi was a relative one off in 2004.

I think it's really just DS, MBL, DS2, DFK & AK that can be looked at as softening up, everything else is still a good old challenge imo.

What defaults? There is no default mode in Mushis, no default style in DFKs and no default difficulty in DSs. DS could be argued since it combines all the scores, but the two first cases even have separate scoreboards for the modes so complaining the game is easy when you purposefully select the easiest one of the games offered to you is just dumb.

Also, somehow I doubt most people complaining DFK Strong is easy have even reached the Ura loop.

[Skykid]

They're all still challenging survival wise, bar a few, but you need re-examine your list based on default settings. If anyone is going to make a new/old comparisons, it's going to be on defaults, since earlier games like Kets, DOJ, Esp didn't have the option, and even Mushi was a relative one off in 2004.

I think it's really just DS, MBL, DS2, DFK & AK that can be looked at as softening up, everything else is still a good old challenge imo.

What defaults? There is no default mode in Mushis, no default style in DFKs and no default difficulty in DSs. DS could be argued since it combines all the scores, but the two first cases even have separate scoreboards for the modes so complaining the game is easy when you purposefully select the easiest one of the games offered to you is just dumb.

Also, somehow I doubt most people complaining DFK Strong is easy have even reached the Ura loop.

I always thought Mushi default would be Original?

And DS level 2's? I suppose DFK varies a bit.

Maybe I have that wrong, that's just the way I always look at it. I wouldn't consider DS: Lv999, FBL: God or Futari Ultra to be anything except expert only options.

[Hagane]

Batrider defaults to Normal yet most people only really take Advanced seriously when playing for score.

I think games with selectable difficulty settings just can't be compared to the regular dip switch difficulty selection games. Some not only vary a lot in patterns or new stuff thrown at you, but outright play very differently (like Mushihime Original with its super fast bullets).

[DrTrouserPlank]

There's no way you can say that DFK and AKS are "easy"

DFK (strong or not) is balls hard and floods the screen from stage 3 onwards.
AKS has two of the most ridiculous bosses at the end of it.

I don't particularly think there's any appreciable difference between DOJ, futari, ketsui or anything else. Certainly not first loop. It's not as if you are going to clear one of those easy and then be completely stuck on another.

[Gus]

I don't particularly think there's any appreciable difference between DOJ, futari, ketsui or anything else. Certainly not first loop. It's not as if you are going to clear one of those easy and then be completely stuck on another.

[psoslayer]

If you can't dodge bullets, don't play bullet hell.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

There is nothing undoable in DFK first loop if you know what you're doing. I obviously don't on most stuff, but I can still easily get through the first loop. Nothing in the first loop forces hypers or bombs.

I just wish the second loop bosses other than the first were feasible to do without Hyper spam. Don't even the superplayers get hit by those patterns?