Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[Special World]

It's cool if, having played Battle Garegga for the first time a week ago, you want to say that the bullets are really hard to see.

It's not cool if, having played Battle Garegga, you want to completely exaggerate a segment of the game's design, and complain about said game unceasingly.

[blackoak]

I'll probably check this out if proper stick support gets added. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how hard that is to program in? Conceptually it seems like it would be quite easy, curious why it got left out.

[Deadly Red Cube]

I'll probably check this out if proper stick support gets added. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how hard that is to program in? Conceptually it seems like it would be quite easy, curious why it got left out.

Conceptually it's quite easy. But if you build the gameplay around the assumption that there's analog movement (which, let's be honest, is pretty well standard on the Xbox, what with its two analog sticks), it becomes much harder to handle digital and analog movement. The best you can really do is to try to come up with a good "slow move" speed that works in most cases.

[Deca]

Speed change button that cycles through 3 or 4 settings. Seriously guys games have been doing that shit forever and it works fine.

[DJ Incompetent]

I need to convince the company about the importance of a patch for the shmup people, before my contract ends.

I suggest we start organizing and explaining our patch requests into a coherent package the best we can. We'll only get one shot at this if Reiker can pull through.

[Zaarock]

I need to convince the company about the importance of a patch for the shmup people, before my contract ends.

I suggest we start organizing and explaining our patch requests into a coherent package the best we can. We'll only get one shot at this if Reiker can pull through.

This is pretty awesome for us. I just finished the story on alternative narrative and normal difficulty, enjoyed it a lot.. if that's what most people play then I'm not that surprised of the high reviews. I think this can be a great "gateway" shmup so I hope it sells well. A patch that fixes up arcade mode will keep the game alive for a bit longer, it's not the greatest for score attacking but still enjoyable.

[Moniker]

Speed change button that cycles through 3 or 4 settings. Seriously guys games have been doing that shit forever and it works fine.

Never liked this method. One more thing to distract you from the action. So many deaths in caravan games changing speed... Focus shot is the one true path. Wouldn't hold my breath for either one though; I can't imagine it being trivial to shoehorn in. Through story mode I was perfectly fine with analogue, but then when I went to arcade I definitely felt the pinch. Well, if they can do something about digital input that'd be super.

Also, can we make <INCOMPREHENSIBLE ROBOT SOUND> a meme?

I suggest we start organizing and explaining our patch requests into a coherent package the best we can. We'll only get one shot at this if Reiker can pull through.

Good idea. Maybe someone other than me can just pull the suggestions so far, and we can have a vote to rank them or something. Or someone can just rank them.

[Special World]

Guys, I'm pretty sure that Reiker and the folks at Digital Reality made the game they wanted to make, and you're basically just asking them to make a different game. Kind of silly, imo.

[Zaarock]

Guys, I'm pretty sure that Reiker and the folks at Digital Reality made the game they wanted to make, and you're basically just asking them to make a different game. Kind of silly, imo.

What? all the complaints on specific things have been about things that won't change how the game works, but rather design oversights like powerups being random. If reiker wants to patch it then he might agree, he directed the game after all lol.

[Special World]

Guys, I'm pretty sure that Reiker and the folks at Digital Reality made the game they wanted to make, and you're basically just asking them to make a different game. Kind of silly, imo.

What? all the complaints on specific things have been about things that won't change how the game works, but rather design oversights like powerups being random. If reiker wants to patch it then he might agree, he directed the game after all lol.

Why are you so sure that random powerups was a design oversight? And it certainly would change how the game works to make them appear at set intervals.

[Zaarock]

Why are you so sure that random powerups was a design oversight? And it certainly would change how the game works to make them appear at set intervals.

It might not be, but I can't come up with any good reason/benefits from randomness apart from saving them time thinking about how the items spawn. Maybe so that casual players have more variance in playthroughs if they like playing through story mode on normal multiple times. But it has no place in arcade mode and score attack mode if they intend them to be modes for scoring competition (I'm assuming reiker wants people to play score attack to score attack, not to manipulate luck, is that a stupid assumption? )

[Special World]

Sometimes a bit of randomness is programmed in to increase excitement, like in Smash Bros or Mario Kart. I don't think Sine Mora implements it well, but that angle wouldn't be hard for me to believe.

[Zaarock]

I don't think Sine Mora implements it well, but that angle wouldn't be hard for me to believe.

Yeah, I could understand it for story mode as well but I can only see it as unintended for score attacking modes unless they want to piss off the people who try to get good at them.

[Udderdude]

Sometimes a bit of randomness is programmed in to increase excitement, like in Smash Bros or Mario Kart. I don't think Sine Mora implements it well, but that angle wouldn't be hard for me to believe.

Smash Bros and Mario Kart are goofy party games you play with your friends while having a few beers. Sine Mora is not.

Not only is the randomness poorly added, it's entirely unnecessary.

[Special World]

I don't think Sine Mora implements it well, but that angle wouldn't be hard for me to believe.

Yeah, I could understand it for story mode as well but I can only see it as unintended for score attacking modes unless they want to piss off the people who try to get good at them.

Why would they unintentionally make powerups random? Game designers usually think these things out, from what I can tell.

Sometimes a bit of randomness is programmed in to increase excitement, like in Smash Bros or Mario Kart. I don't think Sine Mora implements it well, but that angle wouldn't be hard for me to believe.

Smash Bros and Mario Kart are goofy party games you play with your friends while having a few beers. Sine Mora is not.

Not only is the randomness poorly added, it's entirely unnecessary.

I would sooner play Smash Bros or Mario Kart seriously, which is perhaps the problem. But those games can be played at a pretty high level, if you're really into them.

And I'm not disagreeing. The randomness is poorly implemented and unnecessary, imo. But it's probably still a conscious design choice.

[Zaarock]

And I'm not disagreeing. The randomness is poorly implemented and unnecessary, imo. But it's probably still a conscious design choice.

Pretty much everyone seems to agree that it's unnecessary then, including reiker if he already got convinced in patching the game to please the crowd going for 1ccs/score attacking (again, he directed the game.. he isn't just some random PR guy posting here).

He already said they won't accept any changes that make the game something it isn't, so I don't see what you mean by a patch making the game something different than their creation.

But yeah, this is a pointless debate; might as well just make a list of things we see as flaws and see what they do with it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But yeah, this is a pointless debate; might as well just make a list of things we see as flaws and see what they do with it.

Really, what I'd like to see more than anything else is a control fix. The analog stick as it is now feels like I'm literally forced to play as if it's a Gradius game with constantly maxed out speed; not cool. A visible hitbox overlay would also be very nice (even if you have to unlock it via a challenging mode so you're forced to play through as the game's aesthetic was intended), especially since the patterns get very, very tight, and it can get really hard to tell if you're about to get hit when your ship blends in with the background. Fixing these (I agree a simple slowdown button would be better than a 3 or 4 speed selection button) would probably seriously lessen irritation with bullet visibility too if they didn't want to make those missiles more visible in order to maintain the art style and such (doing short streaming/tapping through a tight wave with the analog stick sucks and is prone to too much error where you move quicker than intended) and I'd definitely go for a download if those were addressed since the controls are my biggest gripe.

You can learn to deal with bullet/missile visibility and sudden laser issues with memorization (something that's definitely needed in Sine Mora) but it's not fun without a good set of controls and, ideally, a visible hitbox.

[Zaarock]

Really, what I'd like to see more than anything else is a control fix. The analog stick as it is now feels like I'm literally forced to play as if it's a Gradius game with constantly maxed out speed; not cool.

Never used the analog stick to control myself apart from the silly blending in garbage part on stage 3 but that does sound bad. Sounds like something they could definitely fix along with adding control mapping so arcade sticks would be usable (Ironically I think the product page has "arcade stick" as one of the features, or at least did before)

Visible hitbox

I don't have any problem with the hitbox personally (Actually I think it's on the same exact spot on the GA-22 as one of the progear planes or something), but this is never a bad idea. It's nice that the hitboxes are shown on the plane select at least, very few games have that.

sudden laser issues with memorization.

Can always just use reflect on reflex until you have bosses completely memorized, that's what I've done and its pretty fun. Actually reflect even makes you invulnerable to the ramming I think.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I need to convince the company about the importance of a patch for the shmup people, before my contract ends.

I suggest we start organizing and explaining our patch requests into a coherent package the best we can. We'll only get one shot at this if Reiker can pull through.

It'll have to be changes that dont spoil the game for the mainstream crowd.

Judging from demo

Digital Controls / slow down button???

Power Up System ???? the demo felt too underpowered with no power ups collected, possibly increasing the chance of the first couple / few of red orb drops would fix this.

Losing power ups too quickly after taking a hit.

I think much of the visuals are out of bounds as asthetics are a prioity over gameplay. That said I think wierd moving bullets like the suicide bullets could be made to stick out more, since they are only found in the harder modes, which are meant for us guys its something they could do.

Im fine without a visable hitbox ingame as long as the game displays it in the ship select screen

[chempop]

slow down button???

Visible hitbox

sudden laser issues with memorization.

Trying playing Miyamoto in a Raizing game and then make those complaints with a straight face.

[Ed Oscuro]

Game designers usually think these things out, from what I can tell.

Just writing that sentence, or feeling you need to, should tip you off about something. (Other than the unintended comedy value such a sentence provides.)

Thinking things out is not the same as thinking them through to their logical conclusion.

I don't welcome the immediate assumption that is being made in many quarters that The Game Developer Knows Best, and that The Community Only Cares About Its Own Pet Projects / Peeves. Nobody here, and I mean nobody, is trying to make anybody make a game they wouldn't have made, or to destroy the vision behind the game. Now, insofar as "vision" is being used as a sloppy analogue for "cherished beliefs and wishes that are wrong," I think it's not too much to point out when it is so.

I think much of the visuals are out of bounds as asthetics are a prioity over gameplay.

This is one of the small potential tragedies that comes out of putting a cherished name in art games (Grasshopper Manufacture) on another game they aren't designing. Killer7 was far different from most any other game in its genre, and from most other games, period, but they didn't take it as a license to ignore good game design rules (to be fair, there were plenty of almost, but not quite great, ideas in that game - but then again, many standard third person shooters fall flat in the same areas, but in different ways).

But yeah the bullet visibility stuff leaves me nonplussed in this case. Somebody get back with me when they start flickering.

[denpanosekai]

I can't control this ship. Not gonna bother anymore. Fantastic looking game, plays like shit.

[Kiken]

I think much of the visuals are out of bounds as asthetics are a prioity over gameplay.

Yet the game includes a bunch of unlockable graphics filters. I tried one of them (6501, iirc) which reduced the game to about 64 colours and applied faux scanlines... it looked... awkward. I immediately turned it off.

[kid aphex]

Omega V had a similar visual filter. It's... interesting

I guess I'm the only one who prefers the analog control

[guigui]

Let us be serious, you cant the play game with an arcade stick.
I remember first playing Cave games and I was VERY upset by the fact that ship speed changed depending on A or C shot. After a while I got used to it. I'm pretty sure you can get used to it here too, accepting to play with the pad. Though, you'll never get the same precision of movement as with a said Cave game, but hey, reflect is here, plays like Gigawing, yay !

As for a list of simple welcome modifications :

- Loose less Firepower when touched. Let us say three or four maximum for instance. Also it is weird how they cannot be recollected when just released. Maybe just make them appear farther away from the ship, moving really fast and in every directions at the beginning (so they cannot be recollected immediatly) and slow drastically afterwards.
- Remove randomized Firepower. Either make them appear on fixed ennemies (maybe a bit boring due to the gameplay idea) or make them appear ala Garegga but simpler. This would make each player elaborate his own route through stages in order to maximize Firepower, or minimize them for rank control.

[Special World]

Ed Oscuro: It would be nice if you "thought my posts out to their logical conclusion" and realized I'm unsatisfied with the game. I just realize that a lot of the things you guys are talking about very likely ARE NOT glitches or oversights. Why would randomly appearing items be an oversight when the medals are at fixed intervals? Why would he make a giant oversight and include analog controls? According to what I'm reading here, Reiker's vision was to make an STG that appeals to the masses. According to what I'm reading on review sites, he's succeeded. I'm not sure why he'd want to go in and change things that he likely intended after this forum got super upset and accused him of "deceiving" them.

Maybe Reiker will actually come in here and say "You know what, those are some pretty good points, I'll get on that", but to keep acting like these are all unintended bugs and sloppy programming is narrowsighted and downright idiotic.

I think the memorization aspect is super annoying, but I don't expect him to come in here and say "Whoops, I didn't mean to make the game a memorizer! Just an unintended bug! I guess I'll take out all these super-fast boss attacks, and these walls you can collide with."

[evil_ash_xero]

It would be cool if Reiker would do these things for the arcade mode. That way, he could please everyone. You know the casual probably won't mess with arcade anyway.

[denpanosekai]

I remember first playing Cave games and I was VERY upset by the fact that ship speed changed depending on A or C shot. After a while I got used to it.

I'm going to be honest and say that I remember feeling that way as well, but maybe not that upset. However what always struck me from Cave games is how pixel-precise D-pad/stick movement can be, which is clearly not the case with Sine Mora, and is my biggest gripe ATM. For comparison I think Soldner-X 2 feels a lot more precise, as it has proper digital input support.

[BPzeBanshee]

I remember first playing Cave games and I was VERY upset by the fact that ship speed changed depending on A or C shot. After a while I got used to it.

I'm going to be honest and say that I remember feeling that way as well, but maybe not that upset. However what always struck me from Cave games is how pixel-precise D-pad/stick movement can be, which is clearly not the case with Sine Mora, and is my biggest gripe ATM. For comparison I think Soldner-X 2 feels a lot more precise, as it has proper digital input support.

I remember playing ESPRade for the first time ever and being like "WTF why is it slowing me down, this can't be a good thing I'll just stick it on Autofire". Went back to it some time later after Lagless MAME's release and absolutely loved the game - and by then I'd realised ship speed changes weren't a bad thing.

[MauJustice]

Run recorded. Just under 300mil.

I'm editing it now and I'll be uploading ASAP. I'll be keeping in my ridiculously epic fails against the Stage 4 boss by the way... Get ready to cringe at my awful dodging skills / overuse of rollback.

Anxious to see this. Struggled my way up to the stage 3 boss last night.

Not sure if I have the will to go much farther.