Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Rob]

...yeah, anyone who thinks this is still a serious discussion, you go right ahead.

Holy hell, are we communicating in the same language? I said they have (legal) rights to the area, you asked me to elaborate and there's the map and their corporation.

[Rob]

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... en-america

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?

Just a monthly reminder of Bernie's good sense.

[Mortificator]

the fucking map

The raping map:



I know of one particularly whiny pervert in the Municipality of Anchorage.

[Mischief Maker]

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... en-america

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?

Just a monthly reminder of Bernie's good sense.

Ha ha! Shit, dude, does Breitbart keep a database of trollbait articles you guys just randomly draw from? I had conservatives waving that one at me months ago on other forums. I'll just copy-paste the response I gave back then:

your smoking gun was a reposted article from Valley News in 2011.

And if you actually read that article you're throwing in my face, you'd realize the context isn't, "Comrades! Let me sing the praises of Marxist-Leninist utopia Venezuela!" but actually, "income inequality is getting so bad in America that we've got less social mobility than fucking Venezuela, fer chrissake!"

Maybe if you Libertarians would take the time to research the complexities of the issues beyond a "Socialism Sucks!" bumper sticker, you'd have fewer embarrassing #aleppomoments.

(Emphasis added to show that even your intellectual laziness is unoriginal)

You know there's a reason liberals are so smug.

[Rob]

your smoking gun was a reposted article from Valley News in 2011.

Yeah, I know, and now we can see what a realized American dream looks like according to Bernie and his followers. Scandinavia (Sweden anyways) would seem to be next.

You know there's a reason liberals are so smug.

My sides.

[BryanM]

All this pee pee and doo doo in my beautiful political revolutíon thread.

Thanks BM, M^2 : (

[Rob]

#OurRevolution

[Mischief Maker]

And if you actually read that article you're throwing in my face, you'd realize the context isn't, "Comrades! Let me sing the praises of Marxist-Leninist utopia Venezuela!" but actually, "income inequality is getting so bad in America that we've got less social mobility than fucking Venezuela, fer chrissake!"

Yeah, I know, and now we can see what a realized American dream looks like according to Bernie and his followers.

Geez, not only do you not read the articles you link, you don't even read the posts you're replying to!

Are you dyslexic, Rob? Is that what's going on?



Okay, BryanM, I'm done.

Believe it or not, the back and forth between Rob and me is more symbiotic than it looks. Every time I play Skipper to his Gilligan and whack him over the head with his hat, that's one less person IRL that I snap at because of all the pent up emotional energy I get from reading the awful news.

Or to put it in terms that Rob would understand, "Delicious Liberal tears! Hey, why'd my taxes go up?"

[BulletMagnet]

Holy hell, are we communicating in the same language? I said they have (legal) rights to the area, you asked me to elaborate and there's the map and their corporation.

Rob, if you seriously believe that what we've been going back and forth about for pages on end is whether or not this tribe has some manner of legal right to the land, as opposed to whether or not your out-of-left-field evocation of those rights, especially in the context of supporting material aid to a marginalized group, especially at direct cost to long-term environmental concerns, makes even a modicum of sense in light of literally everything else you've stated in this thread when it comes to nonwhites and their myriad problems, you're completely out of your mind.

I frankly refuse to believe you're that daft, and have wasted more than enough time indulging you and the rest of the nativist nonsense on here.

[quash]

Jeez, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're just trolling all of us into believing that you actually care about understanding other points of view.

[quash]

The Trump administration is prohibiting officials at the nation's top public health agency from using a list of seven words or phrases in any official documents being prepared for next year's budget. [...] The forbidden words are "vulnerable," "entitlement," "diversity," "transgender," "fetus," "evidence-based" and "science-based."

I don't care what your politics are, just those last two should be enough to open your ears to the rest of the planet laughing its ass off at how much we've debased ourselves.

It seems the only thing that's been debased is your ability to think critically about anything pertaining to Trump. Sure enough, if something seems a little too much like a progressive think tank wet dream, it's probably bullshit.

How many more times must you allow yourself to be duped before you realize these fuckers have been lying to you for years?

[Mischief Maker]

How many more times must you allow yourself to be duped before you realize these fuckers have been lying to you for years?

That's right! Put your trust in Rebekah Mercer! She will never use Breitbart or Project Veritas to tell you lies in service of enriching herself!

Also Ivanka Trump is totally liberal and will keep her father in check.

[quash]

Why do you talk about the Mercers as if they're some kind of international cabal? They're in the same class of barely billionaires as the Trumps.

In any case, I approach all media outlets with a healthy amount of skepticism, though at this point I avoid the propaganda arm of the CIA altogether precisely because of stories like this.

[BryanM]

"barely" + "billionaire"

lol what a parody of a wage cow

I get that it's hard to understand what capital is and how it works if you and everyone you know is a peasant slaving away for monopoly money all their lives, but jesus christ

lol

[quash]

Well, I'd be in good company with people here claiming that rich people don't invest their money (as if they aren't always investing by definition) or any number of the crazy things I've heard in this thread regarding economics.

Please, tell me how Donald Trump's wealth compares to that of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, or even George Soros. I mean, I've only been hearing non-stop for the past two years about how Trump is such an incompetent businessman and how his net worth is nowhere near what he claims. Now's your chance to drive it home.

[BryanM]

This reminds me of how the Mitt Romney machine twisted and contorted itself to make the man into a mere hundred-millionaire in the minds of populace. The truth of the matter is that's bullshit - it's very possible that Romney is wealthier than Donald Trump.

But that's how the illusion works. You believe what they want you to believe.

Please, tell me how Donald Trump's wealth compares to that of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, or even George Soros

Okay, you only need 30 Donald Trumps to equal one Bill Gates.

You would require 68,888 quashes to equal one Donald Trump.

We've already established that your idol President Hoover is an american hero dude for killing capitalism, you don't have to get so defensive about your evil overlord versus other evil overlords christ. You sound exactly like Hillary claiming she was broke after college.

Well, then again you're with the male version of Hillary, so it's no wonder....

[Mischief Maker]

Well, I'd be in good company with people here claiming that rich people don't invest their money

This 20-second video is a gift that keeps on giving. "Why aren't the other hands up?"

Spoiler

They're using the extra money for stock buybacks to increase the value of their personally-held stock options. Because that will make them more rich. Because that's how the post-Friedman incentive structure works.

Tax rates don't drive job creation, consumer demand does (enhanced by infrastructure). Speaking as a small businessman myself, it would be AMAZING if I could just "will" new customers into existence with the power of lower taxes.

"The Art of the Deal" was a work of fiction written by Tony Schwartz.

[quash]

Jeez Bryan, you dodged this one harder than you've ever dodged before. I was hoping you'd at least acknowledge that the players with more pieces on the board can make more moves, and maybe take a look at whose side of the board you're on.

Also, by some accounts, Robert Mercer isn't even a billionaire.

https://thenetworthportal.com/celeb-net ... net-worth/

http://www.townandcountrymag.com/societ ... net-worth/

MM, I agree that consumer demand is essential to business growth, but so are competitive tax rates. You'd make more money with less customers if you could get away with tax evasion, no?

[Mischief Maker]

MM, I agree that consumer demand is essential to business growth, but so are competitive tax rates. You'd make more money with less customers if you could get away with tax evasion, no?

Okay, let's run with your hypothetical. I've got the same size customer base and I'm cheating on my taxes so I make more money.

Why would I hire more people?

[Mischief Maker]

Oh, and to further back up my point. Tim Sloan, CEO of Wells Fargo recently said:

"Is it our goal to increase return to our shareholders and do we have an excess amount of capital? The answer to both is, yes," Sloan said. "So our expectation should be that we will continue to increase our dividend and our share buybacks next year and the year after that and the year after that."

Like he said, they ain't using the excess capital to hire more tellers. They're buying back stocks. Because that makes Tim Sloan more money by inflating the value of his personal stock options.

[quash]

MM, I agree that consumer demand is essential to business growth, but so are competitive tax rates. You'd make more money with less customers if you could get away with tax evasion, no?

Okay, let's run with your hypothetical. I've got the same size customer base and I'm cheating on my taxes so I make more money.

Why would I hire more people?

Because you want to expand your operations, ostensibly to make more money.

My hypothetical is based in reality: companies outsource not always just due to lower wages, but lower taxes, as well.

But yeah, of course cutting taxes on its own doesn't create jobs, especially in the age of offshore tax havens and job outsourcing. Those are all things that have to be dealt with, and unless I've been misinformed, the latest tax bill does have some measures to ensure repatriation of funds overseas.

[Mischief Maker]

MM, I agree that consumer demand is essential to business growth, but so are competitive tax rates. You'd make more money with less customers if you could get away with tax evasion, no?

Okay, let's run with your hypothetical. I've got the same size customer base and I'm cheating on my taxes so I make more money.

Why would I hire more people?

Because you want to expand your operations, ostensibly to make more money.

With the same size customer base?

Let's say you own a successful Donut shop. Over the years you've figured out that 500 donuts a day is the sweet spot for sales in your town, you need 6 employees to make and sell the donuts, and with that setup you're making a comfortable profit. Then one day your taxes get cut in half. You're so giddy at the prospect you decide to copy what genius businessman Trump did with his casinos and set up a second franchise in your same town. You hire an additional 6 employees and in total both your shops are now making 1000 donuts a day.

But to your surprise, the combined sales from your two shops still add up to 500 total. Because the size of your customer base remained the same. Only now you're paying for twice the office space, twice the employee wages, twice the ingredients, and these additional costs swallow up your once-comfortable profit margin. At this point, who cares about your lower tax rate because it's a lower percentage of zero! And unlike Trump, you don't have a multimillionaire father who can send his lawyer to buy $3.35 million of donuts to keep your business afloat after the idiot move of expanding beyond what the consumer base will support.

"Why do you guys keep saying Trump's a shitty businessman?" Because he's a shitty businessman.

Now instead of tax cuts, let's look at a government policy based on expanding the consumer base. $15 minimum wage. And instead of a hypothetical business, let's look at the real-life example of Wetzel's Pretzels during the phase-in of California's $15 minimum wage law.

Phelps worried increasing wages for his employees would cut into profits and that if he raised prices to compensate, fewer people would come eat and sales would drop. But something else happened entirely. Sales at his California stores immediately shot up.

[...]

“My overall sales were something like 15 percent ahead after the first minimum wage bump, and now they're about 12 percent ahead this year,” Jacobs said. “It isn't because I'm such a great manager or smart guy, but the buying public has more money in their pocket.”

[...]

“By my looking at it, the minimum wage increase has just been a godsend,” Jacobs said. “My income this year will be double what it was in 2013.”

If any silver lining can be gleaned from this multi trillion dollar wealth redistribution to the top, it will be the death of the "fiscal conservative" myth.

[BulletMagnet]

If any silver lining can be gleaned from this multi trillion dollar wealth redistribution to the top, it will be the death of the "fiscal conservative" myth.

Bush Jr. exploded the deficit, Bush Sr. exploded the deficit, Reagan exploded the deficit, yet the myth persists, why should this time be any different? Who in a position to do so with any tangible effect on "conventional wisdom" is lining up to finally call them out on it?

[Mischief Maker]

I get your point but I'm warning you right now that if you focus on deficits, you're playing into the Republicans' hands. Their one-two punch that stupid 3rd way Democrats have played into again and again are:

1. Get into power. Spend like you've got a hole in your pocket with tax cuts.
2. Get voted out of office. Turn on the Democrats, point to the deficits and say, "Look at the mess you made!"
3. Reach a bipartisan "grand bargain" wherein you slash parts of the social safety net in service of balancing the budget.
4. GOTO 1

[BryanM]

Who in a position to do so with any tangible effect on "conventional wisdom" is lining up to finally call them out on it?

A young man by the name of Bernice Sandernisa.

"These fuckers just blew up the deficit, and they're gonna use it to try to cut social security and medicare. Like they always have. Forever."

The cuts in Medicare are automatic unless they do something to stop it. Good times. Enjoy next year's electoral bloodbath.

I get your point but I'm warning you right now that if you focus on deficits, you're playing into the Republicans' hands.

Which a young man by the name of Bernardo Sanderinaró doesn't do. He connects policy with the tangible effect it'll have on a normal person's life.

I'm still reeling from our resident Nazi hater calling Medicare my "pet issue". Dafuq.

Some people don't wanna pick up the knife and win elections.

[BulletMagnet]

I get your point but I'm warning you right now that if you focus on deficits, you're playing into the Republicans' hands.

Well, until we figure out a way to do so the myth will persist, guaranteed - hell, they just elected Donald Trump and tried to elect Roy Moore, but will still claim the "traditional values" mantle with noses pointed skyward until that's deliberately wrested from them as well.

The cuts in Medicare are automatic unless they do something to stop it. Good times. Enjoy next year's electoral bloodbath.

I don't know, too much of the electorate still seems willing to endure any inexcusable indignity visited upon it (and future generations) as long as they can be led to believe that Someone Less Deserving Than Me is also suffering due to it, and I unfortunately don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Domino]

I never thought I see the day that the Repubs became tax and spend and the Demodorks beside deficit hawks.

[BryanM]

I never thought I see the day that the Repubs became tax and spend and the Demodorks beside deficit hawks.

1981?

The slashes to outlays they always plan never materialize in full, Charles's wet dream always remaining so. Once you start talking about actually killing grandma, it... it's a precipice no party wants to jump off of.

Socialists (real ones, not the Hollande kind) care a lot about the deficit, for various reasons. (They're nerds / the deficit is always used as an axe to threaten aid to poor people / dumping debt on the backs of unborn children is a shitty thing to do / they'd like disingenuous turdmunchers to shut up about it / etc)

Spoiler

[BulletMagnet]

So you thought that Matthew Petersen would be the most on-the-nose personification of Team Trump's peerless leadership credentials that you'd encounter this week? No, I'm afraid that the world we currently live in isn't even THAT merciful to those of us who value minimal competence and/or integrity in the folks making decisions that profoundly affect people's lives.

[Mischief Maker]

And just when I'm reassuring myself that as awful as things are right now, there's light on the horizon, fucking Justice Democrats starts eating their own.