Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

Fudoh wrote:How does the picture change when you leave the scene setting at graphics and you toggle the speed preference (deinterlacing) setting ?
I will find out tonight when I boot up some Secret of Mana.

I will say at default settings there is perfect deinterlacing on still scenes and a little interlacing on movement.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by BONKERS »

Graphics mode is usually 4:4:4 mode that disables a lot of processing. That might be why
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

Fudoh wrote:How does the picture change when you leave the scene setting at graphics and you toggle the speed preference (deinterlacing) setting ?
When I turn "On" the display speed setting, the image gets jumpy again, When I turn it "Off" it becomes serene and blocky again. (it defaults to off on graphics scene)

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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Fudoh »

and yet you get the low lag result when using the "off" setting ? If so, would you mind doing the same test using a 480i title ?

This would mean that the Sony does NOT recognize 240p in game mode, but it does in graphics mode.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

Fudoh wrote:and yet you get the low lag result when using the "off" setting ? If so, would you mind doing the same test using a 480i title ?

This would mean that the Sony does NOT recognize 240p in game mode, but it does in graphics mode.
Sure I'll see what I can dig up.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

Fudoh wrote:and yet you get the low lag result when using the "off" setting ? If so, would you mind doing the same test using a 480i title ?

This would mean that the Sony does NOT recognize 240p in game mode, but it does in graphics mode.
It was hard finding a true "480i" game so I had to resort to Super Monkey Ball Adventure for the Gamecube.

My verdict is "speed preference (ON) " makes my image noisier on a 480i source based on my perception in "graphics scene".

I am using a Gamecube with Component cables on 480i only game:
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Fudoh »

thanks - but to clarify something: You used Leo's handheld tester to get that reading for a progressive source only ? Since your TV still applies deinterlacing for RGB 15khz sources, I'm pretty sure that you get that +35ms jump when disabling the speed preference option.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

Fudoh wrote:thanks - but to clarify something: You used Leo's handheld tester to get that reading for a progressive source only ? Since your TV still applies deinterlacing for RGB 15khz sources, I'm pretty sure that you get that +35ms jump when disabling the speed preference option.
True. That's the general weakness of the Leo Bodnar is that it can only measure 1080p raw content on input lag and not measure internal TV scaling on legacy devices.

I do "feel" like I have better response in graphics mode vs game on 240p scart but I can't say either way on GameCube or dreamcast 480i vs 480p.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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The Graphics mode always remains grayed-out on the W6 when using the scart input, right ?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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It' not TV-related but that mean we'll finally see OLED monitors, and so, possibly smaller TV's;
http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display-aim ... ptops-2017
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Talking about 2015's Sony 4K sets in the FM thread, the X810C is called X8005 in Europe, right ? or is it a different set/part number ?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

Wooow...that is cool news.. A 34" OLED wide, curve, gsync/free sync, Dp 1.3 might be a possibility by the end 2016. Or maybe, I am just dreaming:)
Xyga wrote:It' not TV-related but that mean we'll finally see OLED monitors, and so, possibly smaller TV's;
http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display-aim ... ptops-2017
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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By the end of 2016 ? Ouch. I bet that'll be difficult, honestly they're still working on the burn-in issue for monitors, at best we'll see a couple standard 16:9 60Hz models in the 24"~30" size, probably even just full-hd, and at premium price.
Laptops and tablet hybrids might even get served first as those are usually considered shorter-lived products not necessarily requiring the best performing displays.

It's still early but the oled industry is evolving faster than lcd ever did.
I'm more concerned with real market issues like even more trouble with the economy and raw material costs. Because honestly the whole oled business could have started much earlier if it hadn't been for that 2007-2008 crisis (still) giving cold feet to many manufacturers (and probably the reason why the obsolete lcd tech is still widely dominant).
For a big new technology market to take off the environment needs to be good, but it's not, so LG clearly have been trying to forcefully start the oled market by themselves with the hope of becoming the absolute leaders when things will get a bit better.
Really bold, or stupid depending on how you look at it.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

Well let me ask.. What is the life span of the OLED TV.. Example the LG55" 1080p?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bigbadboaz »

No one really knows yet.. and that's what really sucks. These sets simply haven't been out long enough, or in large enough numbers, for there to be any real-world evidence. OLED also has an inherent weakness in the blue subpixels vs. the reds and greens.

I'm dying for this technology to take over but it's going to be a long process.

On the positive side, I haven't heard any horror stories yet of early breakdowns, even of the very first sets Samsung put out before pulling back from the technology. I certainly wouldn't buy any of these early sets with an expectation of a particularly long lifetime, though.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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The current sets are okay, they're using white oled with color filters now, either just for the blue or all.
The life expectancy, or rather the time before the color balance starts to get fucked up, is probably about the same as ccfl-lit lcd displays if not better.
Manufacturing facilities for smaller and intermediary displays is what's missing for TV and monitor makers I believe, the already existing facilities were for LG's big sets and Samsung's mobile ones, but LG have been expanding their production capacity. A couple Chinese manufacturers are getting there too from what I read.

In fewer words; I'm not too worried about the technology, it's already more stable and reliable than plasma, it's mainly mass production that's lagging behind, though production facilities should be ready by 2016~2017 for the most part.

I'm guessing Samsung will make their comeback last, they need to do enough corporate spying before investing. :P
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Xyga wrote:
In fewer words; I'm not too worried about the technology, it's already more stable and reliable than plasma, it's mainly mass production that's lagging behind, though production facilities should be ready by 2016~2017 for the most part.
Can you provide a source showing any evidence of that? Just curious because Im having a hard time finding any such long-term test data on OLED sets. Plasma tech was very cheap, stable, and reliable when it ceased production.

I find it difficult to believe OLED can be even close to plasma techs level of reliability and production stability given that there is still just a couple of manufacturers willing and/or able to mass produce them for consumer use.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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And can you prove it's not ? Google it, your knowledge is outdated. About the state of oled technique and manufacturing, the investments booming and plants being built, there are plenty of reviews and even direct comparisons with the best plasmas.
But yeah I won't waste time doing it in your place because it's useless, I've read you enough to know you have an everlasting product owner's satisfaction complex and drag people into pages-long arguments to prove you're right against the world in order to feed it.
With huge posts you would painfully prove that 2012~2013 oled sets weren't more reliable (although already performing better than the best plasmas in like every fucking review, but you would skip that part) and that's as far as you would go in terms of objectivity.
I get it you know: you love your discontinued 720p plasma, it's the best display in the world, and those who question it are all wrong.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Well, bit of an opportunity to do a end-of-year review then :)

I think some more fundamental research was done recently to help OLED longevity (I think it was along the lines of preventing attack on some part of the structure, like the p-type (hole) semiconductor, something along those lines. But then there's more uncertainty: How soon does this filter into the shipping technology?

Samsung promised something like 100,000 hours on their last models, or 10-20 years - enough for them to show a kid growing up and bequeathing the gift of ancient technology. So, let's talk about the elephant in the room, how monitor types are used and bought:

In this kind of enthusiast space we like to talk about reliability and high quality, but for many people that will be irrelevant because that's not the choice you get when replacing a TV. Old technology won't be useful with coming developments, and it's not just companies that choose cheap technologies - most buyers do too. I don't expect that most people don't care about reliability and quality when given the choice - but we all know that pushes for higher resolution and HDR material means that today's stuff won't be future proof, and indeed future stuff may be intentionally obsoleted as well, as long as the companies can keep the refresh cycle going.

For most buyers, you simply just buy something and keep using it until it breaks, at which time you probably have to buy an entirely new ecosystem. For most people this is okay because who plays SNES anymore?
Alternatively, if you have a bit more cash to throw around, you can get into the upgrade cycle before the old set breaks. This is not even a growth opportunity for companies - they simply want to keep pace with the economy despite the saturation of the market with TVs after a pretty sizable outlay by all parties after the analog to digital transition. If companies don't find a reason to keep people turning over recent sets, they stand to have severely restrained cashflow. If anything, this would only allow more growth opportunities by trying to find new markets with even cheaper barriers to entry - digital signage grass, maybe? Or panels for "smart" alarm clocks?

A lot of technology watchers are highly anticipating 2016 for a number of developments in feeding new panel types with content: Intel vs. AMD in CPUs, and AMD vs. nVidia in GPUs. I would add that Intel iGPU vs. nVidia dGPUs may prove to be more important. Alternate Frame Rendering (i.e. SLI and Crossfire) also have an important year coming. Unfortunately, people looking to future proof purchases can't look to standards like DisplayPort 1.3 to signpost the way (adaptive sync is still optional in DP 1.3) and while we would like to see the rise of 4K and HDR in displays for PCs, it will likely be a long wait for anything that's consumer affordable.

So, back to reality and boring price structures. Right now the market seems to look something like this:

1080p LCDs - still going to be a large number of shipments. The resolution makes money so companies continue to order sizable shipments of panels, with most changes probably just happening in choosing different panel sizes.
4K LCDs - encroaching into the space. After Marqs' response to my question about building a scaler, I had to think "it's almost as if the big manufacturers have to keep pushing for something more difficult to make in order to keep the small guys out." Of course, the competition isn't (yet) Marqs and enthusiasts, but rather the huge number of OEMs and "display manufacturers" in the space. Old-timers like Sony and Panasonic are joined not only by one-time parts Korean parts makers LG and Samsung, but also by entirely new brands - Vizio in the US, and even companies like Haier from China. Haier? I still can't believe they make anything other than cheap portable refrigerators, but here we are. With everybody ordering panels from the same sources, there's probably very few meaningful opportunities for product differentiation, but there is a lot of room to fall behind - on the other hand, maybe not, since a lot of the "choices" display manufacturers face are probably identical as those of their competitors who may well have identical panels in some of their products.

Those two panel types represent a good investment for companies: You need 1080p to capture most of the buying public, and you need 4K to stay competitive - 4K isn't a product differentiator, of course, and I don't expect HDR to be either.

Now onto plasma and OLED:

Plasma simply sounds not to have been a good investment for its makers: They are keen to say that popular demand was dropping off, but I also think that regulatory pressures and just the expense of building them meant that they were unpopular. Heavy weight also isn't so good here.

I've read a variation on the old comment "the perfect is the enemy of the good" in relation to OLEDs. OLEDs' main problem right now is that little advances in LCD technology coupled with an apparently quite big price difference in production means that OLEDs are less cost effective to make for large screen (larger than a smartphone, and maybe even there too). That, to me, seems like enough of a problem to drive the whole story.

If you are a PC gaming enthusiast, in particular, there's little in this story to be hopeful about. The story of early G-Sync and FreeSync displays was "$700+ for a TN panel?" OLED is even further away; we can't expect weird resolutions to get pushed out just for gaming monitors, at any price. Now, I'm hopeful that OLED panels should be easily enough pushed into high framerate roles at common sizes and at common resolutions (probably 4K or higher) and I'd be happy for that. However, until they can be made for desktop use, I don't see anybody making the investment when even capturing the relatively huge TV market has been such a battle for OLED. Until and unless prices come down, OLED is not a winner for PC gamers.

144Hz+ 1440p panels probably represent the best choice for many PC users, and not just gamers, but with a ugly scaling resolution for 1080p content (but perhaps better for scaling in emulation of older systems). This is a 'luxury' specialty panel type and we can't expect significant price drops unless everybody suddenly decided they need one for productivity...which I don't see happening as the bean counters control corporate spending. If there is a silver lining, I expect that 4K panels will crowd out this technology, and by then hopefully we will have better size choices and GPUs to power them, and maybe even good content scaling options.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

The price of manufacturing large screen oleds is dropping steadily fast, the selling prices too, faster than any other panel type before.
The problem with burn-in was addressed with the use of woled back in 2014, they just don't do that in small sizes yet.
Now they need to put in place mass production and it's not easy but totally feasible.
Otherwise LG wouldn't put billions in new oled producing facilities, nor other manufacturers announce they're either entering or getting back on the market.

And regarding the PC use it's not very relevant as monitors aren't available yet.
Nobody says no higher refresh rates nor g-sync or whatever are impossible with oled, and that's still a niche anyway. But it will happen. Why not ?
Whatever, even at 60Hz understand that when you're facing an oled you're overwhelmed with it's strenghts over the imperceptible weaknesses.

I've seen all display technologies in action, and in the realm of flat panels oled it the fucking tits. No question. I'd take even the cheapest early LG over the latest Predator.
Almost hallucinating how people seem to be seeking every little weakness, every possible reason they can think of to say oled will fail. Why ? Seriously Why ?
It's almost like people would sadistically want it too fail, because oled seems too good to be true and in a way can't even be put at fault, there are too few angles for attacks and people can't stand not to have anything to bear their fangs at.
Well I prefer reading the good reviews around, even the weaker ones actually, as they're all positively stunned with how good oled is. That should give people a hint.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Thomago »

OLED is stunning, for sure, but it's also known to fail in terms of longevity. This might have been rectified (the industry surely wants the customers to think so), but it also might not - nobody knows for sure, especially not some reviewers who have been testing the TVs for some weeks at best.

So, buying an OLED at this time is a gamble (as in: your fancy 5000 $ TV might look like sh*t 3-4 years down the line), and most people aren't willing to take that, understandably.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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In 2014 LG claimed 30,000 hrs of half-life (when light output may begin to decrease) my soon 7 years old CCFL LG LCD hasn't been used half that and it's already having serious color problems because of the neon tubes not outputing the same light color temperature as they did when I bought the set.
30,000 hrs is 8 hours a day for almost 10 years !
By the way how long do people spend in front of a TV on average and how often do they renew their main TV set ? Do they wait until it's used to the bone ?

At the moment in the US you can have a 55EG9100 55" 1080p OLED for $1,999 and top of the line flat (fuck yeah!) 55EF9500 4K for $2,999 (when did you read 5000?)

Weighing between the pertinence of 4K and the best achieved performance of LCD in our day and age (lol at both), tell me why people still buy tons of Samsungs like the 55JS9000 at $2,499 ? to take just an example of a popular one I could also mention the 55JU7500 at $1,800. Both PWM by the way lol.
So why ? For the low lag ? (the only thing it does objectively better), or for using with a $2500 PC to power their games on it ?
For the longevity ? Nope, nope, nope.

I'm saying this seriously with no intention of hurting the feelings of anyone, but really people are just copy-pasting whatever negative thing they read about OLED.
There's really something wrong in the air.
If people would have rational complaints it would be that it's only LG making sets right now, because LG aren't good with many little things, and they haven't applied the new prices in Europe yet.
Panasonic know how to put together better sets, but they've made only one super high-grade, super expensive model.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Xyga wrote:how often do they renew their main TV set ? Do they wait until it's used to the bone ?
Apart from enthusiasts and people with very much money to spend?
Yes. At least in Germany, don't know if people elsewhere have another mentality.
Xyga wrote:(when did you read 5000?)
That was the price tag (in €) of a really stunning 4k OLED set from LG that catched my eye two days ago at a local retailer. I honestly don't know about the overall OLED price niveau here in Germany.
Xyga wrote:There's really something wrong in the air.
You say that as if there was some sort of conspiracy. People are just sceptical, and not without cause. That's a good thing, you know?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Xyga wrote:And can you prove it's not ? Google it, your knowledge is outdated. About the state of oled technique and manufacturing, the investments booming and plants being built, there are plenty of reviews and even direct comparisons with the best plasmas.
But yeah I won't waste time doing it in your place because it's useless, I've read you enough to know you have an everlasting product owner's satisfaction complex and drag people into pages-long arguments to prove you're right against the world in order to feed it.
With huge posts you would painfully prove that 2012~2013 oled sets weren't more reliable (although already performing better than the best plasmas in like every fucking review, but you would skip that part) and that's as far as you would go in terms of objectivity.
I get it you know: you love your discontinued 720p plasma, it's the best display in the world, and those who question it are all wrong.
*joe pesci's voice* "okay okay okay!"
Uh...OK. Merry Christmas to you too. :roll:

Ed Oscuro, thanks for the informative response-- thats what I was looking for.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Thomago wrote:Apart from enthusiasts and people with very much money to spend?
Yes. At least in Germany, don't know if people elsewhere have another mentality.
Well about 30,000 hrs is still quite a bit of time even for people who spend maybe 5 to 6 hrs a day watching TV (seriously that's too much lol).
That's 14 to 16 years.
Thomago wrote:That was the price tag (in €) of a really stunning 4k OLED set from LG that catched my eye two days ago at a local retailer. I honestly don't know about the overall OLED price niveau here in Germany.
The pricing in Europe is most infuriating, LG are clearly giving the US market privilege.
Thomago wrote:You say that as if there was some sort of conspiracy. People are just sceptical, and not without cause. That's a good thing, you know?
Not a conspiracy, it's a problem of attitude, in this case people are being overly sceptical in my opinion.

-----------

@Josh: yes I'm being a jerk with you sorry, but I don't care because I know where you come from and the song you were about to sing, and you'd have been wrong to, because oled has now bested plasma in every frigging way and it would have taken you a few pages to finally admit it.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Thomago »

Xyga wrote:30,000 hrs is still quite a bit of time even for people who spend maybe 5 to 6 hrs a day watching TV
These 30,000 hrs are a bogus number anyway. I mean - can you tell me what presumably will happen to an average TV in that time?

Will it be completely dead?
Will its picture be so bad that it's outright unusable?
Will there be obvious deviations from its inital visual performance?
Will it begin to deviate from its initial visual performance?

I guess the 30,000 hrs refer to "completely dead", but that's worth nothing if the TV's picture looks like dreck 20,000 hrs before.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Xyga wrote:
@Josh: yes I'm being a jerk with you sorry, but I don't care because....
You dont appear to be sorry-- and you are way off base with your presumptions as to what and why I was posting. I like plasma tech for specific reasons, not just because Im a "plasma guy".

In preaching to me what I "was going to say", you forgot to consider I was a person, not a tech defending robot-fanboy. If you would calm down and remember my reasons for liking plasma are, in no particular order:

1.) Per pixel emissive, not transmissive display tech.
2.) Perfect off angle viewing
3.) Good contrast / blacks.
4.) Lack of motion blur and soap opera effect.
5.) Good color reproduction and screen uniformity.

If you care to revisit my earlier posts you will see all of these. Guess what, OLED tech shares most of these features and indeed bests plasma in contrast and blacks due to limits of plasma MLL. Im all for the PQ of it. Im not saying, nor was going to say, plasma has a better picture than OLED. The only PQ advantages plasma has over it is less motion blur and better motion resolution. I was questioning how you came to the conclusion that OLED was more reliable and stable than plasma, a far more mature technology. Theres no reason to get mad unless you really cant back up that claim.

Im all for OLED-- but it still has issues, apparently, and that is one reason most stores still dont carry them.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Another point on longevity: People might upgrade as they want, but they also might not need to. I have an "elderly" LCD screen (about 10 years old - '05-06 vintage) with a CCFL backlight that was used regularly up until recently and looks pretty much perfect for use up to this day and so a lot of people can just keep using them. I have seen some monitors with the characteristic halo pattern but those seem to be abused.
Xyga wrote:The price of manufacturing large screen oleds is dropping steadily fast, the selling prices too, faster than any other panel type before.
Quite so, but so long as there is a price differential, you're not going to see these things at "affordable" prices, or in enthusiast form factors (like gaming monitors with weird-for-TV resolutions and sizes).

Of course, if LCDs keep a price differential under OLED, OLED could fall in price to what's now considered good for LCDs, but there'd still be a lot of market pressure to make the still cheaper LCDs in mass.

I'd like to know if there's any chance of OLED manufacturing actually catching up with the price of LCD.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

guys..thank you for much for the good discussion on the OLED/Plasma/LCD... I game on a PC rig and something larger than 34" would not be ideal.. I will patiently wait for the unicorn 34" OLED.. The Acer Predator monitor looks fantastic to me and I am patiently waiting for the Asus version and the reviews before I make a purchase. I have heard many people say that gsync is not a big thing or not necessary but let me tell you that Gsync is a must for me. Last year I went gsync with a PG278Q, TN.. this year I went wide screen, curve, IPS with a U3415W and 2016 will find me with a wide screen, curve, IPS, gysync 34" Asus/Acer and I will not look back.

off topic - 2015 has provided me with great gaming experiences but one that stands out above them all is the experience that I had with Axion Verge. Axion Verge made me stand up and applaud during the rolling credits,, this game is unreal, the sound track is amazing and the game play is Metrovania.. Go buy Axion Verge if you have not done so already..... lets throw money at the game creator so he/she can produce more of these types of experiences:)..
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by amaradona »

I hope the question was not already asked but would you let the wii being upscale by the w6 or by the xrgb mini? I remembered Fudoh saying that despite the flaws of the xrgb mini 's component inputs, the wii was upscaled properly.
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