Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

By the way.. a note about the final pattern that begins at 3:41... the upper left corner says 'hi'.

Heck, just sit in front of the boss. The attack isn't aimed and doesn't rotate at all, it just looks pretty, lol. Edit: Oh, I see, you don't actually need to shoot the boss during its last attack, it just decides to explode on its own.

[Udderdude]

By the way.. a note about the final pattern that begins at 3:41... the upper left corner says 'hi'.

Heck, just sit in front of the boss. The attack isn't aimed and doesn't rotate at all, it just looks pretty, lol.

Oh man. That is one hell of a safespot .. :(

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why are most people's complaints essentially boiling down to "this isn't cave?"

Can you imagine what would happen if the artists and design team collaborated with Cave's game design people? We'd have an amazing-looking shmup without all this safespot sillyness or "who needs bullet patterns or to see be able to see bullets when the bosses can just ram you" stuff.

[spl]

Why are the voice overs in Hungarian??

[Tyjet]

Heck, just sit in front of the boss.

I seriously didn't even see that opening spinning around it until now. I thought sitting there was the way to go.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why are the voice overs in Hungarian??

It was the style they were going for (perhaps to sound 'interesting' or 'foreign' to anyone who isn't Hungarian, dunno). I think it works just fine.

[spl]

Why are the voice overs in Hungarian??

It was the style they were going for (perhaps to sound 'interesting' or 'foreign' to anyone who isn't Hungarian, dunno). I think it works just fine.

It works fine when you don't understand Hungarian.. lol..

[Kiken]

By the way.. a note about the final pattern that begins at 3:41... the upper left corner says 'hi'.

Heck, just sit in front of the boss. The attack isn't aimed and doesn't rotate at all, it just looks pretty, lol.

Hey, that'll work too.

It was the style they were going for (perhaps to sound 'interesting' or 'foreign' to anyone who isn't Hungarian, dunno). I think it works just fine.

Actually, Reiker said that they just had the Hungarian in there initially as a placeholder. It was when they showed it to the guys over at Grasshopper that the Japanese asked for it to be kept in because it sounded really interesting.

[spl]

It was the style they were going for (perhaps to sound 'interesting' or 'foreign' to anyone who isn't Hungarian, dunno). I think it works just fine.

Actually, Reiker said that they just had the Hungarian in there initially as a placeholder. It was when they showed it to the guys over at Grasshopper that the Japanese asked for it to be kept in because it sounded really interesting.

That sucks - Japanese is interesting, Hungarian is boring - plus the translation is not even correct most of the time.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It was when they showed it to the guys over at Grasshopper that the Japanese asked for it to be kept in because it sounded really interesting.

Ah, so it only became a stylistic choice afterwards to keep them Hungarian.

Watchin' a playthrough of story mode on youtube, a bit odd how they like to jump around characters so often when there really only seems to be a few key people in the plot itself. Oh well, it works I guess. Anyone know if a full run of the game's arcade mode/score attack has been posted?

[DJ Incompetent]

I really wish I could see the internet thread if Battle Garegga were released today.

Thanks Reiker for putting this together. 'Loving the story, sound, and presentation. I hope you are willing to brush this dirt off your shoulder to make another STG in the future.

This game is a great survival piece reminiscent of Darius. It is refreshing to put emphasis back into shooting instead of just dodging.


I can manage the game as-is (and story mode is almost perfect by-itself), but I feel some tweaks would make the arcade mode feel more legitimate as a competitive scoring game if patching is a thing your team is willing to do:

- Lost powerups at least bounce off the screen borders 3-4 times before escaping. Most power recollection is easy as long as you have blue bar remaining. It's a really bad break if you take a hit near the screen edge.
- A small invincibility period after taking a hit. Hitting the wrong terrain or cluster ends the timer instantly. As there are no extra lives, it gets silly for such a long game that some player errors are far more costly than others.
- Eliminate luck from powerup drops (if applicable). I think the medal drops don't look random, but the other powerups do look random. I know rarity of red powerups increases as players have more of them, but if there is truly a system of luck in the powerup drops, this does break the scoring system. Edit: I think I've learned more about the red powerups. There's seems to be a cap by stage and I maintaining a very high kill ratio seems to get you the reds you need to be able to beat a boss.
- Eliminate blocked shots on a boss fight (make every hit on a boss at least slightly damage something) or have a more generous timer in hard mode. I feel the time system and specific accuracy requirements for attacking boss segments conflict with each other. I can no miss my play but still run out of time just because I couldn't destroy a specific boss section fast enough. It doesn't feel totally my fault when I'm forced out of position dodging bullet patterns.
- Customizable controls. A,B,X setting works, but it isn't ideal. Many arcade sticks and alternate d-pads have different button configurations.
- Player speed tweaks. Sine Mora has this Dangun Feveron issue where high player speed is required to get around the playfield to keep the timer and scoring up, but a slower movement speed is ideal to tap through fast, dense bullet patterns. A 4th button to cut player movement speed in half while shooting or looking into adopting Cave's player movement mechanics would be appreciated.
- Increase bullet and terrain border visibility. The devs have every right to mock players on here for bitching about bullet contrast while still voting Garegga as one of the top STGs of all time. Still, being able to see the tight patterns better is still a thing I would like addressed, especially with the missiles. I also have a habit of running into terrain when I think it's not a wall. The garbage cloud area is another messy spot.

Edit: I figured out the dialogue repeats itself because different events are happening concurrently.


BEST GAEM EVER

And posting complex complaint lists based on playing a demo is dumb.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

And posting complex complaint lists based on playing a demo is dumb.

Yeah, because the full game totally fixed all the issues. Oh wait.

[Udderdude]

The devs have every right to mock players on here for bitching about bullet contrast while still voting Garegga as one of the top STGs of all time. Still, being able to see the tight patterns better is still a thing I would like addressed, especially with the missiles.

For the record, I never voted Garegga best anything (In fact, I never voted in any of those polls)

Bullet visibility is an issue in Garegga, that doesn't mean it doesn't have other elements that draw people in to it and make them overlook or just deal with the bullet issue.

Sine Mora has bullet visibility issues as well as a host of other gameplay related issues.

Ketsui also has some issues I feel, with the giant 5 cubes constantly flying into your face, and your main shot fully powered up flashing colors rapidly. But people here love Ketsui.

People are willing to overlook some flaws if the game is good enough. Sine Mora does not seem to be one of those games.

[rancid3000]

Serraxor was quick to put up a review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVTnwFqBVcw and a pretty good one at that. (As are pretty much all of his reviews in my opinion)

It's a little over 12 minutes long and you get to see the easier of the 2 arcade difficulty levels. The hard difficulty setting seems a lot more enjoyable than that insane one in the demo. If you haven't bought the game you will get a much better view into it from watching this review. The visuals are truly insane all around.

[Weak Boson]

My thoughts on this are that the story is great, whoever's brain it all came from should be proud. And it hardly needs saying that the aesthetic design is also wonderful. Having a world that's actually well realised with interesting characters definitely counts for something, even in a shmup. I do like it, and I'd like to like it more, but it has some issues which get in the way, hopefully this will be more constructive than some other posts in the thread.

The most immediate one doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to fix with a patch. Being stuck with a pea shooter is not fun and it can feel unfair. Maybe if only one power up was lost each time you got hit, or if you went down to the nearest multiple of three, or something like that, it would feel less punishing. I have noticed times where not all my power ups would fly away - but whether that's because I managed to recollect them instantly or because there is such a system in place already I don't know.

The other thing that struck me was the multiplier being cut by subweapon use. In Cave games bombs are usually just crutches for less able players, and while they're also something to lean on here it seems like they a bit more utility than that so it seems a shame to write them out of score play. Less experienced players would use them to be aggressive on the most difficult parts or catch enemies they would otherwise miss for a boost to the timer, whereas while playing for score you'd have to think about how you could use them to maximise the time remaining for the end of the level. I think this would make the game a bit freer for both scoring and survival.

Bullet visibility seemed fine to me - the red/blue bullets stand out from the background and the missiles have big white streaks. Sometimes attacks seem to come out of nowhere but I think they are visible when they arrive. So what's more of a problem is the visibility of the enemies targets you're supposed to be shooting. Weak points on bosses flash a little, and the white rings that appear sometimes are great, but they aren't there all the time and something a bit more reliable would be appreciated. In stages there are a few cases of ambiguity on what you can shoot or crash into, and I wouldn't say no to a visible hit box either.

The first boss destroys me! I think part of it is that its attacks aren't telegraphed much, it's very hard to read your opponent's movements or predict what kind of attack you'll be up against. Even if you knew how to dodge all of its attacks you can still have to memorise the order they appear in to have a chance. But because of the timer you have to be aggressive to stay alive. Combine this with having to aim at the tiny weak points and you've got a fight that requires complete memorisation. Obviously memorisation is a part of playing any shmup but if the rest of arcade mode's bosses are also like this then there are gonna be frequent walls blocking progress. Maybe this is just how the game is designed, but I think the effects could be mediated by some of the things I've already mentioned. Making sure you always have enough firepower, being able to use subweapons more freely and clearer marking of targets and threats would all help. Another idea would be to make the bosses a bit less aggressive, just so you have a bit of extra time to read the boss's movements, remember what to do or even go for a bit of sneaky damage if you're low on time. That might be going too far, though, I'm just throwing it out there.

Finally I want to say that I appreciate Reiker coming here to get feedback. It's kind of disheartening to see such negativity in this thread but maybe that's just par for the course. Enough of that, though. There's a lot to like about the game so I hope that some of its problems can be addressed. In the meantime I'll be slogging away at that slippery hexapus.

[BuckoA51]

Can we all at least agree it's better than Aqua?

[NeoStrayCat]

Well, you should be welcomed on your review Serraxor, taking up the time to put it up the day after, lol.

In all seriousness, to me, this is a pass for now, since I get it about the issues some of your guys mentioned, but it may or may not be a big deal, yes, there might be a chance this will get patched, but who knows. So yeah, I'll rather wait until it ends up becoming the inevitable DotW. (Which would be rarely never until then.)

Also, this game being better than TWN! and some others, please, I can dig the atmosphere for this game and its mechanics, but when it forces you to play aggressive, then you know something is wrong there, but that's the point of it all anyway, lol.

[Vally]

Wondering if I can get a video of an Arcade Hard run up on Youtube today. It's a shame there's no replay system! That would be #1 on my list of things to add come a patch day.

Came back at this with a fresh mind, and managed to breach the 300mil barrier. I'm sitting pretty at Position 2 on XBL again, and made it through to Stage 6.

I made a LOT of silly mistakes on Papa Carlo which meant I had to go through most of Stage 5 with almost no capsule gauge. Not being able to rollback my penalties meant I came out of it with a much lower score at the end than I could've done.

Stage 5 was quite easy compared to the 4 (Libelle still causes me problems!), and I absolutely LOVE the Contra Hard Corps reference in the background.

Personally, I feel there's a ton of negativity surrounding this that's unwarranted, but I've made my opinions on Sine Mora quite clear I think and I don't expect many people to follow suit. I appreciate most of Cave's output as much as anyone but I'm really enjoying this based on it's own merits, and score attacking is very fun despite popular opinion on that in this thread.

Too busy enjoying the things it does well to care about the little things it doesn't.

[rancid3000]

Wondering if I can get a video of an Arcade Hard run up on Youtube today. It's a shame there's no replay system! That would be #1 on my list of things to add come a patch day.

I'd be interested in that Arcade Hard mode run for sure.

[Kollision]

The devs have every right to mock players on here for bitching about bullet contrast while still voting Garegga as one of the top STGs of all time.

BANG

My thoughts exactly.

[Kiken]

The medal drops are not random (still have no idea what's going on with the various power-ups though); every 5th target killed will release a medal (although some targets don't seem to count). This is universal across all modes.

[Estebang]

I must be the only person who's had exactly zero issues with Garegga bullet visibility. Whenever I've died, it's always been my fault (intentional or not).

[Frenetic]

Theodore Reiker first of all I just want to say I am just honored that you, the Creative Director of Digital Reality would personally come in and comment on this forum. I downloaded the trial, played it and it was engrossing, and bought the game within the half hour.

As said earlier, this game was not made exclusively for the hardcore community. Taking and implementing some of your suggestions here would result in a different game. A game, I'm convinced, which is less attractive to the mainstream.

I hope you are not too taken aback by the tone of the criticism of the members here. When tempers have cooled maybe you and your company can reconsider? We play STGs often and they inspire high emotions, perhaps something constructive can be taken from all of this?

The development team was prepared that our game will be considered "blasphemy" here, yes. What we hope is, however, that the "outside world" will like it. That other companies will follow, experiment and the general public and media will be more interested in this genre.

I am really enjoying this great effort you guys and Grasshopper Manufacture have put forth. Taking the great leap to make a STG nowadays. There are people who are a lot less vocal on this forum (counting myself) that probably love the game as I do but don't voice it or get caught up in spoilers that might color the experience of the game. I, an STG enthusiast, thank you.

We will do what we can to fix your major issues with the game in the following months. However, the game itself will remain what it is: something different.

And I love much of the difference. I hope you can look at the criticisms of the forum objectively and came back with great changes. I hope real genuine changes that need to be made will be made and what needs to be left in will be left in to preserve your vision (maybe a new mode could be made?)

Sincerely,
Frenetic

[Kiken]

I must be the only person who's had exactly zero issues with Garegga bullet visibility. Whenever I've died, it's always been my fault (intentional or not).

Originally, when I only had a composite cable for my Saturn, I had visibility issues with Garegga's bullets (and I was playing in tate on CRT). When I upgraded to an S-Video cable (on the same CRT), those issues went away.

[Eaglet]

I must be the only person who's had exactly zero issues with Garegga bullet visibility.

No you aren't.
My guess is that the ones who complain about bullet visibility (and that making Sine Moras badly designed bullets acceptable) are ones who have either never played Garegga, or suck at it.

[Deca]

It's just the agreed upon excuse for being too lazy or bad to figure out Garegga.

[Obscura]

Yes, everyone agrees that Garegga's bullets are hard to see after they get killed at a time when they literally didn't see a single bullet on screen.

Not that visible bullets would make Garegga good, anyways.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Battle Garegga also has a smaller screen/play area compared to Sine Mora's ship size to screen ratio so your eyes do not need to keep tabs on as much of a wide area. I'd argue this compounds the difficulty in Sine Mora's sections where missiles and such are difficult to keep tabs on as it is due to the blending colours, your eyes have to focus on a much larger area relative to other shmups, not to mention with generally small enemy targets.

[Vally]

Run recorded. Just under 300mil.

I'm editing it now and I'll be uploading ASAP. I'll be keeping in my ridiculously epic fails against the Stage 4 boss by the way... Get ready to cringe at my awful dodging skills / overuse of rollback.

[Hagane]

Yes, everyone agrees that Garegga's bullets are hard to see after they get killed at a time when they literally didn't see a single bullet on screen.

Not that visible bullets would make Garegga good, anyways.

Play it on tate. I used to have trouble seeing Garegga's bullets but that changed significantly after I played it on a tated monitor. It's a wonderful game if you give it a fair chance.