Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:35 pm

Blade wrote:-Lots of Weapons (even for a single ship ala Silvergun)
-Lots of Stages (Not just Boss-fight stages but lots of stuff to navigate)
-Lots of Ship design variance/customization (including sub abilities like speed enhancement, shields, beamsabres, hyperwarp, energy absorbtion, megacannons, hyperbombs etc)
-Good shmup techno/trance/ music...not necessarily that cute stuff from Mushihimesama unless it's intent is to be a cute-em-up.
-Lots of Stages (because you can only play the same stage and enjoy it for so long...and lets not forget hidden stages).

Tyrian and Tyrian 2000 exemplify all these traits. It's one of my fav shmups of all time. Personally, I don't think these are bad ideas like some have expressed - actually I think it would add some replay value or at least some variety.

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:42 pm

howmuchkeefe wrote: (I envision the type of voice that tells you that you've been listening to smoooth jaazz)

Yoouur listening to the smooothest souund... on the raadio. Ahhh...

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:08 pm

Yoouur listening to the smooothest souund... on the raadio. Ahhh...

Kay Why Oh Tee!

There is no need to overload a concept that already works.

Well, it works well enough for the posters on this forum. There's something keeping it from working with the mainstream crowd, though. I'm thinking it's the lack of customization options, the "overwhelming" difficulty and their lack of a forgiving progress saving system. Heck, maybe with a fantastic rank system, even we could be entertained enough by the campaign mode of my super wonderful, AIDS curing fantasy game, if only as a feel good break from being punished by other games.

It would be hard to balance all those weapon systems, if a shmup were made with a Scorched Earth amount of weapon setups, but between attack area and DPS measurements, I think that even a diverse collection of weapons could be reasonably balanced without certain setups ever reaching the cheese factor of R-Type Final's most broken ships. It would take a good mathematician, tho: Even Blizzard has trouble establishing balance working with a moderately sized pool of unit abilities.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:36 pm

Icarus wrote:
'Mainstream'. What a useless definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream

Not even Wiki has a clear-cut definition of mainstream. What I said in a previous post, we can talk endlessly about mainstream if we don`t know exactly what that means. Unfortunately I can`t either - it`s a relative term. Some people might say System Of A Down is mainstream, other might say they are not.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:47 pm

I don't get why this genre should sell buckets or appeal to the masses. Do any of the worrysome individuals who are replying seriously to Fatcobra's pointless question realize that there is something vastly remote from gaming (i.e. learning how a game works, apply such knowledge, progress and even reward), which sells because of that? Why shmups, which are defined by the above properties, should lose them?

Answer: because this thread is moronic. If your life is so bad that you identify in videogames, and you want to accept by the masses, chances are - you have this problem in other aspects of life, and at a deeper level. It's seriously better to cure those problems first, and then come back to the almighty intarweb.

I can accept that it's summer, but you could spend your time playing shmups, instead of bothering if someone else will accept you in his club of penis buddies.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:58 pm

My mind is on the idea of "hey, come play/compete with US!" instead of the other way around (as I'm of the belief that more competition = better), but the worse ideas in this thread don't reflect that at all.

I see a lot of strategies, exploits, and tactics being discussed in boards of "mainstream" games by high-level players of real-time strategy games, multiplayer first person shooters, and fighting games (if you can filter through all the shit-talking and fanboying by preteens(or those who act like such)), so it's not like gameplay mechanics are not at all discussed in mainstream gaming.

Then again, these high-level players aren't most of the money coming into these games

and these suggestions are still pointless.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:03 am

Twiddle wrote:
I see a lot of strategies, exploits, and tactics being discussed in boards of "mainstream" games by high-level players of ... and fighting games

Let's not forget that anything else than Tekken is NOT mainstream, unless you can prove that everyone has given up GTA for KOF XI.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:04 am

Randorama wrote:
Twiddle wrote:
I see a lot of strategies, exploits, and tactics being discussed in boards of "mainstream" games by high-level players of ... and fighting games

Let's not forget that anything else than Tekken is NOT mainstream, unless you can prove that everyone has given up GTA for KOF XI.

Well, they were mainstream a few years ago.

I blame Everquest.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:06 am

FrederikJurk wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream

Not even Wiki has a clear-cut definition of mainstream. What I said in a previous post, we can talk endlessly about mainstream if we don`t know exactly what that means. Unfortunately I can`t either - it`s a relative term. Some people might say System Of A Down is mainstream, other might say they are not.

Thats kind of my point. The definition of mainstream is still up in the air, and its useless to tag x gamer with this label, as gaming tastes vary wildly. I myself enjoy playing FIFA, Madden and Triple Play with my friends; spent countless months on World of Warcraft; enjoy Battlefield 2, Unreal Tournament, Half-Life and Quake; am adverse to a bit of racing and flightsim; but am fiercely devoted to my shmups. Does that make me a mainstreamer? Or a hardcore shmupper?

Besides, shmups have existed from year dot and will continue to do so, and have rarely deviated from their current form. Looking objectively, I'd say it would be better if shmups remained a niche genre: we get a handful of releases regularly every year now, and the quality of the games has largely been exemplary. I personally don't think it would be a good idea to pander to the masses, since I believe that the more stuff is released, the more watered down the concepts might become, and possible oversaturation might occur in a worst-case scenario - you only need to look at the first market crash when shmups were the big thing in gaming to see what can happen.

Leave shmups as they are now, and we can expect to be greeted with more polished games and more new concepts. Don't destroy what is an already good thing by plaguing it with additions that in the long run are largely unnecessary for it to function.

Twiddle wrote:My mind is on the idea of "hey, come play/compete with US!" instead of the other way around (as I'm of the belief that more competition = better), but the worse ideas in this thread don't reflect that at all.

I see a lot of strategies, exploits, and tactics being discussed in boards of "mainstream" games by high-level players of real-time strategy games, multiplayer first person shooters, and fighting games (if you can filter through all the shit-talking by preteen players), so it's not like gameplay mechanics are not at all discussed in mainstream gaming.

The only problem with us is that we don't discuss strategy as much as we can do. I'm going to paint everyone with a broad paintbrush and state that the majority of people here are only here for the l33tness. The amount of threads that crop up with comments such as "this game is too hard!" and "this system is too complex!" is quite disheartening. Granted, shmups are generally difficult and challenging, but - and it has been touched upon in countless threads this past decade - the majority of players make no effort to try and learn. To try and improve. To try and at least join in a strategy discussion.

It makes you wonder why we have a Strategy forum, and some of our high level players bother to write ST guides and start discussions, when it largely goes unused as a resource.

R_Typist · Post by **R_Typist** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:10 am

FRO wrote:Tyrian and Tyrian 2000 exemplify all these traits. It's one of my fav shmups of all time. Personally, I don't think these are bad ideas like some have expressed - actually I think it would add some replay value or at least some variety.

I like Tyrian as well, very much in a nostaglia sense. However, gameplay wise, it fails in some regard in consistency. All those elements are not properly balanced, and weapons, armor, sheilds, bullet spreads do not seem very well planned, and the game loses the drive of simpler shmups.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:18 am

Bringing attention to their competitive nature is good (I think most people think of shooters as something to "beat"). This thread kind of points out the possibilities: people will play anything (they don't even like) for the sake of competition or a useless award. Didn't the official Ikaruga and Gradius V competitions attract a fair amount of attention?

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:19 am

My mind is on the idea of "hey, come play/compete with US!" instead of the other way around (as I'm of the belief that more competition = better), but the worse ideas in this thread don't reflect that at all.

I think bait is in order. Refinement doesn't seem to be attracting too many bodies, so I'm of the opinion that encouragement is in order. Encouragement in the form of a reduced difficulty (for the sake of the self esteem of the curious) and glitter, and customisibility, which I feel that the mainstream have become accustomed to.

Mainstreamers, like it or not, have redefined what a video game should be (EDIT, clarification: As far as the mainstream is concerned). Most shmups violate this preconception on a superficial level, and then dare to insult the mainstreamer by refusing to let the mainstreamer win.

If you would like to see shmups enjoy more mainstream success, then it would be advisible to overcome these complaints. I feel that one may both overcome these complaints (bait), and wean those mainstreamers who might otherwise gone on to excel at Halo or Street Fighter, or even Ratchet and Effin Clank, to try to excel at shmups (sorry, only the first one was free, kid).

If you don't want to see shmups enjoy more mainstream success, why worry about it?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:32 am

howmuchkeefe wrote:Mainstreamers, like it or not, have redefined what a video game should be. Most shmups violate this preconception on a superficial level, and then dare to insult the mainstreamer by refusing to let the mainstreamer win.

Shooters, like puzzle games (and even some multiplayer online first-person shooters), are not as much about winning as much as they are about scoring. Most players see score in these two genres as a superficial bragging mechanic and then turn around and gloat about their kill:death ratio in Unreal Tournament or their total objective score in Battlefield 2.

And as I have said before, strategy in these games isn't alien -- well, at least competitive ones -- if you look hard enough, you can see high-level players discussing these "mainstream" games on a deeper level.

As Rob suggested, if you get players attracted to the competitive nature of shmups instead of their largely irrelevant narrative mechanic, you can bring a fair bit of attention to them.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:33 am

Icarus wrote:
The only problem with us is that we don't discuss strategy as much as we can do. I'm going to paint everyone with a broad paintbrush and state that the majority of people here are only here for the l33tness...

It makes you wonder why we have a Strategy forum, and some of our high level players bother to write ST guides and start discussions, when it largely goes unused as a resource.

I see you answer yourself from the other thread. Please notice that:

1) Most games have been covered in STs, and there's not much left to discuss and cover in detail except for new games.

2) As i say in the other thread as well, only the fools bother about non-issues as "mainstream". I haven't played a single PC game in my life and i bother with ports because i'm too poor for PCBs and lack an arcade near my place.

3) I have bothered to write down things i know because there are interested people - the old Border Down ST reached 4k readings in a couple of months and had several mirrors around the intarweb. Other people here (the aforementioned set) doesn't even know what the fuck is talking about, as basically button-mashes as 10 years ago.

You can argue that i am a nazi but - if a person, like a rock, has the same ideas about a thing (none at all) for a given amount of time, how can he claim to think and thus to live?

4) Genes. We lack the fantastic japanese genes, of course. And since democracy for too many people is about talking about things without knowing facts, you can't argue that i know shit about genetics, least you're a nazi!!1! (...like me?).

5) Overall reactionary approach. I mean, collecting stuff, past is always golden...etc etc etc. That's reactionary thinking, in a very weak interpretation. Still disturbing. The peak is " i don't want to think, i just want to react to bullets". Q.E.D., isn't it?

6) Etc. (Rank hate. What an heresy, i will set-up a molochian dictatorship in which adult age will be reached upon 1-CCing Garegga, dammit! And no adult age = end of your days as an Earthling

).

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:43 am

As Rob suggested, if you get players attracted to the competitive nature of shmups instead of their largely irrelevant narrative mechanic, you can bring a fair bit of attention to them.

Hm. Then, you would suggest a shmup that two or more players could play competitively against each other simultaneously, a la Phantasmagoria of Flower View? Sounds solid to me- I strongly suspect that the appeal of Street Fighter and Halo is in their ability to allow two or more people to do just that.

I'm still partial to me megafantasy game though. Why not fish with more than one net?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:46 am

howmuchkeefe wrote:
As Rob suggested, if you get players attracted to the competitive nature of shmups instead of their largely irrelevant narrative mechanic, you can bring a fair bit of attention to them.
Hm. Then, you would suggest a shmup that two or more players could play competitively against each other simultaneously, a la Phantasmagoria of Flower View? Sounds solid to me- I strongly suspect that the appeal of Street Fighter and Halo is in their ability to allow two or more people to do just that.

I'm still partial to me megafantasy game though. Why not fish with more than one net?

Most experiments like such haven't been done well, as that kind of play has never been shooters' strong point. You've got to get players thinking that with their score on one credit, they're also competing with others who are playing on that one credit instead of just fighting only the computer patterns that take the form as bosses and popcorn enemies.

Some FPS developers have also grasped the concept of the one credit clear in a way -- Hardcore mode in SiN: Episodes allows no saves or loads throughout the 5 hour ordeal, and if you die your game is over and you're given a score based on several aspects of your performance (you can display the current score during the game, though)

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:56 am

Maybe the formula just hasn't been perfected yet. At least, that's my hope: Playing serially is kinda boring, and while coop is fun, it's often available and hasn't seemed to improve the popularity of the genre.

Some FPS developers have also grasped the concept of the one credit clear in a way -- Hardcore mode in SiN: Episodes allows no saves or loads throughout the 5 hour ordeal, and if you die your game is over and you're given a score (you can display the current score during the game, though)

So SiN features a Hardcore mode, in addition to more accessible (read: easier) gameplay modes?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:57 am

Well, the default game mode in an FPS is one where you can just constantly do over everything with no real penalty for death, so yes.

Kicker is -- SiN Episodes RANKS DOWN (read: gets easier) when you load from an autosave checkpoint for death in that mode, but never ranks down when you quickload.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:04 am

Kicker is -- SiN Episodes RANKS DOWN (read: gets easier) when you load from an autosave checkpoint for death in that mode, but never ranks down when you quickload.

That's pretty neat. I wish Oblivion did something like that, but it seems to rank down whether you load your quicksave or your autosave.

...and what you describe could easily be incorporated into my ejaculatory, mainstreamer-hooking shmup! Huzzah!

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:06 am

Not many people on this forum would actually play your "dream" game.

I hope.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:12 am

Well, the hope is that the Hardcore mode would be well designed enough to appeal to the leet, while the trashy mainstreamer hooking mode could simply be not played.

I'd play the trashy mainstreamer mode, tho! (what a shocker)

..and I think I'll stop talking about how awesome my imaginary game is. Since it's as awesome as anything could possibly be, due to the advantage of not having to actually exist, it's kinda silly.

...I just think that something like it could exist, though, and at least be effective, if not the bestest thing ever.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:25 am

Twiddle wrote:
Some FPS developers have also grasped the concept of the one credit clear in a way -- Hardcore mode in SiN: Episodes allows no saves or loads throughout the 5 hour ordeal, and if you die your game is over and you're given a score based on several aspects of your performance (you can display the current score during the game, though)

Really? I am sold, I want a copy of this game now.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:26 am

Shatterhand wrote:
Twiddle wrote:
Some FPS developers have also grasped the concept of the one credit clear in a way -- Hardcore mode in SiN: Episodes allows no saves or loads throughout the 5 hour ordeal, and if you die your game is over and you're given a score based on several aspects of your performance (you can display the current score during the game, though)
Really? I am sold, I want a copy of this game now.

It's only about 15 dollars right now at retailers.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:45 am

R_Typist wrote:
FRO wrote:Tyrian and Tyrian 2000 exemplify all these traits. It's one of my fav shmups of all time. Personally, I don't think these are bad ideas like some have expressed - actually I think it would add some replay value or at least some variety.
I like Tyrian as well, very much in a nostaglia sense. However, gameplay wise, it fails in some regard in consistency. All those elements are not properly balanced, and weapons, armor, sheilds, bullet spreads do not seem very well planned, and the game loses the drive of simpler shmups.

I agree - there were certain ships that weren't worth using, just as there were several weapons that are severely underpowered & spell certain death if you pick them up (or buy them, if in Ful Game mode). I think even R-Type Final suffers from this (some ships aren't worth snot) as well. If a shmup developer (or the homebrew community, for that matter) could come up w/ a winning combination of ship design & weapon design for a Tyrian sequel or just some random game w/ a larger-than-life design (in a similar vein), I think we could finally see good execution of that thought-process. Up till now, however, it's been spotty at best.

malcolm · Post by **malcolm** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:13 am

Mainstream gamers? F..k 'em. Seriously.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:15 am

malcolm wrote:Mainstream gamers? F..k 'em. Seriously.

Yeah, they're the ones who ruined the hobby for us elite gamers.

tekneekz · Post by **tekneekz** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:13 am

can't wait for okami NA version

segasonicfan · Post by **segasonicfan** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:15 am

Actually, part of what I love about shmups is that they're not mainstream. It's one of the only genres of gaming that hasn't been contaminated with the vomit-inducing disgust of hip-hop (which should have never entered the gaming world in the first place. Like the shmups.com main page says, shmups are one the last surviving classic gaming generes.

Since shmups aren't mainstream they use far more creative energy. Games like Fantasy Done, Dangun Feveron, Cotton, etc. never last in a mainstream market but are given a place in the gaming world via the creative energy of the shmup cult that exists. If ever turned wholly mainstream shmups would desintegrate as the art of gaming bliss they are today and de-evolve into nothing more than the crap seen in the mass market today; an indulgence by game producers who seek the pure profitabilty of shitty pop gaming.

That's my shpeel...

-Segasonicfan

fl0w · Post by **fl0w** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:04 pm

I was sure this topic would quickly turn to crap but... it didn't.
Moreover, i've read some brilliant ideas!

There's still a hope for shmups to be a major genre again. Hasn't Geometry Wars Evolved sold 300 000+? Ain't it a "hardcore" game?

imho, and unfortunately, a game can't live without marketing.

I'd add most modern shmups are quite hostile to newcomers. A game shouldn't need a GD to understand how it works... Most shmups have lame tutorials (moreover, they're in Japanese). It's cool to have superplays inside the game or on a video DVD, but ALL games have decent tutorials, except shmups!

Tutorials wouldn't hurt the gameplay or anything...

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:09 pm

Not every shmup has an in game tutorial, but there are plenty of games that do. Also, you can often learn a lot about a game by watching its attract sequences.