Saturn vs N64 discussion on gfaqs

[captain ahar]

Well, now we know why you don't like the disc mediums.

is there anybody out there in the universe who actually *likes* loading times?

i don't know about "liking" them, but i have yet to see the famous neo geo cd monkey...
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sm64 was alright, but i can't play a 3d platformer and not think its already broken on some fundamental level. single screen and scrolling are the only true breed.

p.s. (i am still so happy SSP's are talked about here. you guys got me interested.)

[PaCrappa]

i can't play a 3d platformer and not think its already broken on some fundamental level.

Bingo. SM64 being a little less broken than the rest of its ilk does not mean it's somehow good.

Seriously, more people need to know the glory that is Valkyrie Profile. Platform Puzzles, top notch music, excellent battle system, and then there's the saddest RPG story of all time encapsulated in this game. (By "sad" I mean depressingly morbid...not sad as in bad. It talks about death alot.)

Sounds great. I've owned it for years but I can't play 'em all at once. Maybe that'll be 2007's lengthy time-eater. One a year. That's as fast as I can go.

Just because it doesn't hold your hand as far as the story goes doesn't mean its poorly written.

Hold my hand? It's poorly written because I say it is. But really it's poorly written because they all are. RPGs I mean. I've never seen an RPG story that makes any sense. Sure good vs evil is at play in every single one. But the way the characters interact and the way that the alleged "story" is told sucks. Across the board. PDS is actually better than alot because it isn't a hundred stupid hours of bullshit. It's only like 12 hours of bullshit. But bullshit it remains.

Frankly, I am at a loss for words to counter such absurdity.

Wah. I bet millions of people think your favorite song sucks too. Absurd, I know. Yet entirely possible. The biggest thing with that game though is that it is such a friggin eyesore. Frankly, I'm at a loss for words to explain such awful graphics.

I agree they're not the best games, but it's kind of beside the point.

Not beside my point though. When I type out the question "why pay $100 for SS Zero 3 when CPS-2 Zero 3 is $100" I'm not asking you or anyone else at this forum for their thoughts on what is awesome about the SS version or why they'd buy that before the arcade version. I'm just laying down the thought process that takes place in my own mind as I buy the jamma versions of said games. For me, that other stuff may as well not exist. Not interested.

And PaCrappa definetly get Mischief Makers not treasures best work by any means but is very unique quility game.

Done! Had that one for years as well. Only so many hours in the day though.

I dunno some people these days, if they have to wait more than 10 seconds to play a game they throw a fit. Have they never played on a old tape based system before!

sure I have, but I was young and had all the time in the world. Nowadays, time is a lot more precious to me.

Thank you. I played the living shit out of Parsec on a TI-99 when I was ten. At age ten I didn't have much to do. Nowadays, I gets busy. Besides, I'm not saying don't play the game because of loading times. All I said was that I prefer to spend my money on the version that has no loading times whenever it is available. Surely that's understandable?

I think the comparison should be N64 vs XBOX. They both have about a dozen good games and were highly overrated by the "mainstream" public in their respective "heydays".

Pa

[raiden]

I think the comparison should be N64 vs XBOX

yeah, that should be interesting.

[Ganelon]

Xbox is all about the 2D fighters though. And sports games. Still no question about which one's better in my mind. And those who like Nintendo games will keep thinking the N64 is better.

[raiden]

well, for starters, Starfox 64 is clearly better than Panzer Dragoon Orta.
On the other hand, all N64 racing games don´t add up to the phenomenon that is Project Gotham Racing 2. For 9 months, I played it almost every day, almost the entire evening, mostly online. And after 9 months, I was still learning to get better all the time.

[BrianC]

Xbox is all about the 2D fighters though. And sports games. Still no question about which one's better in my mind. And those who like Nintendo games will keep thinking the N64 is better.

Saturn beats the Xbox when it comes to fighters, though. No Third Strike, but it has SFA2, Vampire Hunter, Vampire Savior, X-Men vs. Street Fighter, King of Fighters '95, King of Fighters '96, King of Fighters '97, Real Bout Special, Samurai Shodown IV, and at least a couple others.

I don't get the "those who like Nintendo games will keep thinking the N64 is better" comment. I like Nintendo games and I understand that it's far from the best system out there. However, I don't feel it's the worst system out there either. Yes, I do get annoyed at people who only like Nintendo games and bash everything else, but at the same time I find it just as annoying when people imply that people who play ANY Nintendo games are fanboys.

[Ganelon]

Um, we were talking N64 vs. Xbox here...

As for my Nintendo comment, I've noticed many Nintendo game fans who like Nintendo systems just as much. This relation is probably because Nintendo systems are the only ones that have the games they enjoy, just as a huge Bonk fan would probably prefer a PCE solely due to one series. There was no hidden jab there at anything.

[Arvandor]

Actually, aside from my Genesis (which got much less attention than it deserved), and an ancient computer (ancient as in color monitors were new, and not all games required color yet), the only systems I ever owned and played were Nintendo. Right up untill years into the Gamecube/PS2/Xbox era. It was around then I started to realize how much I regretted never owning a Dreamcast (due to the gamecube ports I was enjoying so much). Then I won a DC in a tournament, and I kinda ignored it for about a year due to budgeting =P Then I started buying games for it, simultaneously picked up a Saturn and a bunch of games, and I wondered how I could have ever lived without these systems in my childhood =/ Now my Gamecube only gets fired up for Naruto:Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 and SSBM, and my PS2 only gets fired up for ESPGALUDA, Dodonpachi DOJ, Shikigami no Shiro 1&2, and the Psikyo Shooter Collections. Don't get to play Guilty Gear XX#Reload anymore =( The majority of my gaming is done on my Dreamcast, Saturn, and Nintendo DS =D

[raiden]

It was around then I started to realize how much I regretted never owning a Dreamcast

this is what happened to me with the Megadrive. The SNES was my first console, and I got it mainly for Street Fighter II, but I already was into shmups back then. On SNES, Street Fighter II looked better, closer to the arcade version, but on Megadrive, it played better, due to the 6button-pad. Back then, I went by graphics, a decision I have regretted numerous times, but only when I got a Megadrive last year (=more than 10 years afterwards) did I realize how much I had been missing out on.

[Eps]

i can't play a 3d platformer and not think its already broken on some fundamental level.

Bingo. SM64 being a little less broken than the rest of its ilk does not mean it's somehow good.

Well, we all have the right to our own opinions, and I'm not about to start going ZOMG DUED U NO NOTHING COZ I LIEK THAT GAME SO U MUST LIEK IT 2 LOLOLOLZ, etc But I do struggle to see how such an absorbing and fun game could ever be viewed as 'broken'. The mere fact it's 3D should not disqualify it. I consider it superior to every 2D Mario except SM3, which I consider it to be as good as. Recently I got Super Mario 64 DS, and decided to see if I had rose-tinted glasses on concerning my memories of this game. Many (many) hours later, it was apparent that I did not

Oh well; on the other hand, if we all went along with What Hardcore Gamers With Catholic Tastes Apparently "Should" Like, then none of us would like shoot-'em-ups so much

[Rob]

Guess what, it's almost Mario 64's 10 year anniversary. I think I'll replay it this summer and cry nostalgia.

[FatCobra]

Why are we comparing the N64 to the Saturn? Shouldn't we be comparing the Saturn to the Playstation? Or since Saturn bombed in the USA, shouldn't it be N64 vs PS1?

How about N64 vs Saturn vs PS1?

[Marc]

I'd agree that calling SM64 'broken' is a bit on the strong side. 3D platformers are far from my favorite genre, in fact Sunshire bored the piss out of me, but SM64 is by far the best of them. Although I enjoyed Banjo Kazooie as well.

[captain ahar]

i can't play a 3d platformer and not think its already broken on some fundamental level.

Bingo. SM64 being a little less broken than the rest of its ilk does not mean it's somehow good.

Well, we all have the right to our own opinions, and I'm not about to start going ZOMG DUED U NO NOTHING COZ I LIEK THAT GAME SO U MUST LIEK IT 2 LOLOLOLZ, etc But I do struggle to see how such an absorbing and fun game could ever be viewed as 'broken'. The mere fact it's 3D should not disqualify it. I consider it superior to every 2D Mario except SM3, which I consider it to be as good as. Recently I got Super Mario 64 DS, and decided to see if I had rose-tinted glasses on concerning my memories of this game. Many (many) hours later, it was apparent that I did not

Oh well; on the other hand, if we all went along with What Hardcore Gamers With Catholic Tastes Apparently "Should" Like, then none of us would like shoot-'em-ups so much

someones getting defensive. and i also think its funny that i started a major controversy with some people. and also sir, it is laughable that you think i am telling you not to like some specific game. i am defending my opinions, just like you.

i don't dislike SM64 because its 3d, 3d has its place. its just that that place is not in a platformer. there is beauty in simplicity, and this is a major point that "the mainstream" doesn't get.

one thing is undeniable, SM64 has an awful camera (and please don't give me that, "they did what they could crap"). and this is an element that a 3d platformer cannot get right. think about the traditional side view, how intuitive exploration, combat, collection is.\

sm64 has a disturbed camera, several different methods of attack (which are all difficult to use. none more so than the classic "head stomp"), levels that are all about keeping you playing, and not about keeping you entertained (wow! i get to collect 100 stars through various situations. all the while traversing the same old levels to obtain them... i don't frigging care), and how many ways are there to jump in the game, 8?

nintendo: our controller has like 20 buttons on it, lets make the control scheme as complicated as possible!

i still don't feel like i am adequately explaining what i am thinking, but the basic point is 3d platformers don't "feel right."
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plus, and i hate to bring this up, but 3d gets fugly real fast. i want you to play Metal Slug and tell me its not still a beauty, now play some Shenmue and tell me that the graphics are still the work of art they once seemed to be. 2d ages better period, because its about design, not capabilities and system specs.

[Neon]

Bingo. SM64 being a little less broken than the rest of its ilk does not mean it's somehow good.

Well, we all have the right to our own opinions, and I'm not about to start going ZOMG DUED U NO NOTHING COZ I LIEK THAT GAME SO U MUST LIEK IT 2 LOLOLOLZ, etc But I do struggle to see how such an absorbing and fun game could ever be viewed as 'broken'. The mere fact it's 3D should not disqualify it. I consider it superior to every 2D Mario except SM3, which I consider it to be as good as. Recently I got Super Mario 64 DS, and decided to see if I had rose-tinted glasses on concerning my memories of this game. Many (many) hours later, it was apparent that I did not

Oh well; on the other hand, if we all went along with What Hardcore Gamers With Catholic Tastes Apparently "Should" Like, then none of us would like shoot-'em-ups so much

someones getting defensive. and i also think its funny that i started a major controversy with some people. and also sir, it is laughable that you think i am telling you not to like some specific game. i am defending my opinions, just like you.

i don't dislike SM64 because its 3d, 3d has its place. its just that that place is not in a platformer. there is beauty in simplicity, and this is a major point that "the mainstream" doesn't get.

one thing is undeniable, SM64 has an awful camera (and please don't give me that, "they did what they could crap"). and this is an element that a 3d platformer cannot get right. think about the traditional side view, how intuitive exploration, combat, collection is.\

sm64 has a disturbed camera, several different methods of attack (which are all difficult to use. none more so than the classic "head stomp"), levels that are all about keeping you playing, and not about keeping you entertained (wow! i get to collect 100 stars through various situations. all the while traversing the same old levels to obtain them... i don't frigging care), and how many ways are there to jump in the game, 8?

nintendo: our controller has like 20 buttons on it, lets make the control scheme as complicated as possible!

i still don't feel like i am adequately explaining what i am thinking, but the basic point is 3d platformers don't "feel right."
--------------------
plus, and i hate to bring this up, but 3d gets fugly real fast. i want you to play Metal Slug and tell me its not still a beauty, now play some Shenmue and tell me that the graphics are still the work of art they once seemed to be. 2d ages better period, because its about design, not capabilities and system specs.

Nice post Captain.

Eps: I recommend checking out this thread. Lists a lot of great platformers that have been recommended to me over the years. SM64 is quite poor in comparison to stuff like Joe & Mac Returns...OMG ELITISM but it's The Truth (lightning strike).

[Marc]

Yeah, but the point about Mario 64 is that it wasn't trying to be Mario, but in 3D. If that's what Nintendo had intended, you can see from the Bowser levels how they would have gone about it. It's not a straight platformer, and was never meant to be.

3D? Rez will probably never age. Killer 7 will always be striking, Panzer Dragoon Orta also. It's not about perspective or specs, it's about artistic direction. Project Gotham 2 WILL date because it's gone for the realism angle, and technology will allow better representations of that in time. I can't imagine the day that Out Run 2 looks dated, because the art direction is so utterly enchanting, created such a convincing 'world' of it's own that it will always stand the test of time - same as the original.

Joe & Mac Returns? It's mediocre irrespective of dimension.

[Neon]

Mediocre is too harsh, the only flaws are sound related.

[raiden]

Project Gotham 2 WILL date because it's gone for the realism angle, and technology will allow better representations of that in time

well, it may, but looking at PGR3, not that soon. It´s not really realism oriented either, the aim is a complex car behaviour, but look at the way collisions are handled: where´s the realism in that? Or let´s take a look at Metropolis Street Racer: it´s still the same great game it was 5 years ago, it just doesn´t have online multiplayer, cone challenges and wind drafting, that´s why I took PGR2 instead. The whole rumble feature is also used in a much better way in PGR2, it still stands out from the crowd of Xbox racers by using the rumble in a way you feel your car losing grip when taking a curve too quickly - something that couldn´t be displayed visually as well as in a tactile way, especially when you´re driving in front-bumper perspective.

[Rob]

2d ages better period, because its about design, not capabilities and system specs.

193 MEGS!

[PaCrappa]

Xbox is all about the 2D fighters though. And sports games. Still no question about which one's better in my mind. And those who like Nintendo games will keep thinking the N64 is better.

It's a dead tie though. Twelve sweet games is twelve sweet games. Who cares what genre they fall into?

Pa

[Eps]

Woah, woah, wait a sec! Before anyone else replies to that last post, I should state now that I have a feeling I might have fallen victim to Badly Worded Post At 6am syndrome

someones getting defensive.

That was what made me think I might have come across wrongly, because I don't generally get defensive about games.

and i also think its funny that i started a major controversy with some people.

Same with that - I was surprised that you thought there was a controversy. The fact it might have come across that way set the "I must have worded my post really badly" alarm bells ringing

and also sir, it is laughable that you think i am telling you not to like some specific game.

I don't think that at all.

I think that the message of:
"I disagree, and here's why, but if you don't agree that's fine"
that I was trying to put over in my post might have been misinterpreted as the far-more-common-on-the-Net (usually from fanboys):
"I'm going to give lip service and PRETEND I think it's okay for you to think differently, and then THROW A FIT!!11!1!"

I apologise if that was the impression that came across, because this was not at all what was intended. I have that "oh dear, I wrote that post at 6am UK time and it didn't come out right at all..." feeling creeping up on me

[No_not_like_Quake]

Eh... I like Saturn better cuz it has RPG's. You know them games with the turn-based and the stories like those things called Soap Operas

Plus all the 2D action games and alot of excellent redbook audio in games.

[PaCrappa]

Well, we all have the right to our own opinions, and I'm not about to start going ZOMG DUED U NO NOTHING COZ I LIEK THAT GAME SO U MUST LIEK IT 2 LOLOLOLZ, etc But I do struggle to see how such an absorbing and fun game could ever be viewed as 'broken'. The mere fact it's 3D should not disqualify it.

Due to the fact that I like your style, I will attempt to explain my opinion in greater detail.

To me, 3D platformers have too much going on to get everything right. Or at least thus far, none are perfect. The controls and the camera never seem to coexist peacefully enough for me to feel like I can accomplish anything requiring precision. When I play these things I feel as though I'm doing more fighting with the control and the camera than with the bad guys. This gets me super frustrated. In the olden days, challenge was apparent. You've got to get past the Hammer Bros. It's gonna be fucking rough because you know how the Hammer Bros roll. But nowadays the nature of the challenge is less evident IMHO. "Did the super crazyass boss just waste me to death or did the camera shift nine degrees to the right thereby steering my jump into the boss's mouth?"

I like to keep it clean. I could probably list a dozen or more 2D platformers that have absolutely no problems and I might call 'em "perfect". Contrarywise, I can't think of a single 3D platformer that doesn't have at least a dozen problems.

And that's where I'm at with it. Oddly enough, my favorite 3D platformer is on the XBOX. Gun Valkyrie! That one only has eleven problems.

Pa

[Eps]

Regarding control, I can't really give much of a response to your findings other than something neutral like "Oh, well, each to his own". I know you aren't just spouting rubbish (such as can be found on GameFAQs, for example ), yet your findings are sharply opposed to mine. I find Mario a joy to control in SM64, even with the DS' digital pad in that version, and invariably feel that when I die it's my own fault and not a cheap death due to the game. One man's meat really is another man's poison, in this case; I guess there isn't really any definitive outcome to this discussion except to shrug our virtual shoulders and go check out the Trading Station or something.

I definitely see the issue with the camera, though -- it's taken a fair while and a lot of trial and error to have a decent camera in third-person 3D action games, and even now some games still get it wrong.

[jp]

Well, we all have the right to our own opinions, and I'm not about to start going ZOMG DUED U NO NOTHING COZ I LIEK THAT GAME SO U MUST LIEK IT 2 LOLOLOLZ, etc But I do struggle to see how such an absorbing and fun game could ever be viewed as 'broken'. The mere fact it's 3D should not disqualify it.

Due to the fact that I like your style, I will attempt to explain my opinion in greater detail.

To me, 3D platformers have too much going on to get everything right. Or at least thus far, none are perfect. The controls and the camera never seem to coexist peacefully enough for me to feel like I can accomplish anything requiring precision. When I play these things I feel as though I'm doing more fighting with the control and the camera than with the bad guys. This gets me super frustrated. In the olden days, challenge was apparent. You've got to get past the Hammer Bros. It's gonna be fucking rough because you know how the Hammer Bros roll. But nowadays the nature of the challenge is less evident IMHO. "Did the super crazyass boss just waste me to death or did the camera shift nine degrees to the right thereby steering my jump into the boss's mouth?"

I like to keep it clean. I could probably list a dozen or more 2D platformers that have absolutely no problems and I might call 'em "perfect". Contrarywise, I can't think of a single 3D platformer that doesn't have at least a dozen problems.

And that's where I'm at with it. Oddly enough, my favorite 3D platformer is on the XBOX. Gun Valkyrie! That one only has eleven problems.

Pa

Gun Valkyrie is indeed badass.

Though I rarely like 3D platformers, and I'm one of the few that found Mario 64... well... boring.

[Koa Zo]

...
The Saturn analog controller isn´t supported by many games either, but it has a K.O. criterium in the form of Nights, one of the greatest games of all time, only really playable with the analog controller.
...

Since someone else mentioned Daytona CCE, I've got to chime in here and add that the Saturn Analog controller worked splendidly with Daytona CCE.
Not to toot my own horn, but I kicked ass at Daytona USA in the arcade. There was quite a competitive group at my local arcade, and while I eventually was surpassed by a couple other guys, I was definately one of the top players around. Any time I'd travel and play a Daytona unit, I would end-up entering my initials for the top times for the Advanced and Expert tracks. The only exception was when I went to Playland in StateCollege PA - but I still ranked on the records.
I mention all this just to reiterate that Daytona CCE is the best home version of Daytona available. The Dreamcast version played like a completely different game, like Daytona 2000 or something.
Anyone who says Daytona CCE has altered physics or broken control probably played it with a digital pad.

Dude, Daytona CCE played NOTHING like the arcade version... best home version? Take the DC version and simply turn the sensitivity down to its lowest setting. Or use the DC wheel. A better than perfect conversion right there.

Heh, I was sorta fishing for this response, as I've heard it a few times before. The Great Daytona Conversion Controversy ..I really don't get it.
On Saturn CCE with the analog control I can drift behind cars, make subtle steering moves to pass, and aproach and execute powerslides exactly as I do in the arcade.
I've never heard anyone explain what the problems are supposed to be with the CCE port. I am honestly really intrigued because I just don't see (feel) what the problems may be with DaytonaCCE.

As for the Dreamcast revision - with the sensitivity turned down the steering is better, but powersliding just doesn't feel the same as the arcade.