Saturn vs MAME

[antron]

I don't think Japan gets to say what is illegal in your country.
And I really don't think there is any difference between roms and discs. In this case neither are actually made available to me in any licensed way.

If I really like a game, I will make an effort to secure a license.
But for now, Viva la Telecharger.

Edit:
I think this is on topic.
Saturn vs MAME: Technical and Moral implications of

[captain ahar]

are they still releasing MameDOS source code?
the newest versions aren't available, and i don't know what kind of a schedule they work on...

[raiden]

thanks for the great and coherent explanation, elvis. And I have to agree as well. But my reasons for prefering PCBs (or original hardware in general) aren´t due to legal status anyway. It´s just that I´m very conscious of the fact that these things have a limited durability, and as chances are very silm that they´ll ever get reproduced, I consider it as a chance to experience the real thing while it is still there. Sooner or later, we will all have no choice but to emulate anyway. You can call my attitude dumb, and a waste of money, but I think it´s like youth: you can´t postpone it, either you live it while it´s there, or you don´t.

Oh, and regarding iTunes: I used to love that, too, downloaded about 50 songs last year. Then I decided to sell my computer, and as you probably know, iTunes is the only tool you can burn iTunes songs with. But my iTunes was of the opinion I wasn´t allowed to do so. I hadn´t burned them before, yet it refused to let me, and all my songs were lost. Ok, I learned afterwards there is a tool to remove copy protection, but I didn´t know then, and I have to say, I´m not going to use that service ever again.

Actually, I don´t even care whether companies like Cave live on. Nothing they do nowadays enthuses me, so buying PCBs is not designed to help them, from my point of view. I do it because I want them. I´m aware these things are rare, they were produced to be played by hundreds of people each, yet they don´t when they´re in private possession. The only reason it´s somehow okay to buy them nowadays is they don´t get used in arcades anymore, and it´s better they stay in private property than get thrown in the garbage bin. So I consider it a privilege to have them in each single case, and I don´t envy anyone playing roms instead. Imo, everybody can do what they like, at least in cases like these where it´s not hurting anyone.

[Dave_K.]

Hell, I'd pay $200 or more direct to Cave for an approved download of a DoDonPachi ROM. What option do I possibly have right here and right now to purchase this game legally and ensure that the money goes not to some arsehole collector but to the brilliant people who made the game? None. Sad truth.

Elvis, first, great response, and nice to have an intelligent conversation on this without flames. To your question quoted above, you can buy the DoDonPachi International region PCB, and be legal/legit. Now the money will never go directly back to Cave, but it goes into the 2nd hand market of their games, which is continually rising. You can label arsehole collectors as the reason for prices going up, but its really because these are recognized as awsome games and the laws of supply/demand dictate the rise. Cave certainly benifits from this as it continues to increase their overall marketshare, and even lures hardcore collectors (like us) to make purchasing decisions on their new releases. Afterall, why do you think Cave releases limited edition PCBs? Its to keep collectors and the 2nd hand markets rising. Its all connected.

Some may even say that not caring about old Roms, also helps to get the word out about Cave, and increase market share. It certainly has in my case, as it turned me into an avid collector.

[antron]

Some may even say that not caring about old Roms, also helps to get the word out about Cave, and increase market share. It certainly has in my case, as it turned me into an avid collector.

do you think that applies to a pirate copy of a console game that one would not otherwise aquire (like anything over $200 in may case, be it disc or PCB+cart)?

the roms aren't much older than the discs.

people may play it and say, "wow, who made that game? that's cool!"

[sffan]

Hell, I'd pay $200 or more direct to Cave for an approved download of a DoDonPachi ROM.

Wow. I can't understand why you want to pay so much money for something that is currently FREE. Why not use that $200 for some other worthy cause, or just make a donation to Cave if you're concerned about their wellfare?

[Dave_K.]

Some may even say that not caring about old Roms, also helps to get the word out about Cave, and increase market share. It certainly has in my case, as it turned me into an avid collector.

do you think that applies to a pirate copy of a console game that one would not otherwise aquire (like anything over $200 in may case, be it disc or PCB+cart)?

the roms aren't much older than the discs.

people may play it and say, "wow, who made that game? that's cool!"

I was specifically talking about old mame roms, mostly used as a means for evaluating a 2nd hand PCB purchase. Extending this notion to console games is something completely different, espcially since most people only download/pirate games to play, and not end up paying for it (why would they if they arelady have the actual game?)

[antron]

Wow. I can't understand why you want to pay so much money for something that is currently FREE. Why not use that $200 for some other worthy cause, or just make a donation to Cave if you're concerned about their wellfare?

all games are "free" these days to people with the knowhow (us).

donation is actually a good idea. especially when it is easy to do. i remember giving $1.50 to the dvddecrypter dude through palpal, easy.

seriously. imagine a [email protected] paypal account. pay as you burn.

[Dave_K.]

Wow. I can't understand why you want to pay so much money for something that is currently FREE.

all games are "free" these days to people with the knowhow (us).

All games in a traditional store (gamestop or electronics boutique) are also free to those with knowhow (i.e. stealing them), if you follow that logic!

[antron]

All games in a traditional store (gamestop or electronics boutique) are also free to those with knowhow (i.e. stealing them), if you follow that logic!

i said "free"
not free

and no. most of these games are not available there. hince the $200 ebay price

[Dave_K.]

i said "free"
not free

Apologize for not recognizing the sarcasm.

[antron]

i said "free"
not free

Apologize for not recognizing the sarcasm.

I'm just like the media.
Put some quotes around it and my responsibility is absolved

[elvis]

A few comments on the above:

1) I too love collecting/owning original PCBs (regardless of their financial contribution to game devs), and also worry about their durability. As mentioned by Raiden, the simlpe fact remains that boards sadly won't last forever, and one day we'll all have no choice but to emulate. What then? How do we play our favourite shmups when all the boards are broken, and all the lasers in our home consoles have burned out? Nothing will ever beat original hardware, and it really does suck that some of them are endangered species.

2) Donating to Cave - I'd love to know how. I can't read/speak Japanese, so if anyone sees a "donate now" button on their site, send me a link. Somehow I doubt it exists, however. I don't expect to jump on any major (or even minor) corporation's website and see them begging for cash. I wonder what the chances of them cashing a cheque I send directly to their street address are?

3) I am aware that the second-hand market has its place. Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment: arcade operators buy games, and keep people like Cave alive (look, I know not everyone likes Cave, but I use it just as an example - substitute your favourite developer in the same spot when you read this to yourself). Operators, like anyone, live by making profit. No profit, no business, no arcades. Profit equals income minus expenses. Simple. To reduce expenses, you can sell off some of your assets post-use (ie: game PCBs). Operators know that after the boom period of a particular game, there will still be a small fanbase that will collect games after commercial use. This in turn makes them more confident to shell out big dollars to buy the games in the first place. Indirectly, second hand sales play their part in the big picture. I guess my argument is: What do you think the ratio of MAME users to PCB collectors is? And how many of these MAME users would buy a PCB, given the option? And wouldn't it be great if even a percentage of MAME users who otherwise will not buy PCBs would pay just a few bucks for the legal right to play their games? Some money is better than no money in this instance.

4) As Dave_K mentioned above: emulation has it's upsides. My MAME cab has a "random game" button. Pressing it one day led me to DoDonPachi, and the heavens opened and the angels sang. Before that day the last shmup I'd played was R-Type3 on SNES. All of a sudden I see the genre I used to adore is alive and kicking. Googling for reviews leads me to shmups.com's review page, and from there the forums. Reading around in here makes me aware of all the console ports of new games. 30 days later I own a modded PS2, and have a healthy list of invoices from Lik-Sang and Play-Asia. In a giant chain reaction, it was emulation that helped me discover these games, and thus do my part to continue the financial cycle of these games companies.

5) "iROMs" - it's a simple idea and one that's been proven to work in other industries. The infrastructure is there (emulators, web servers, fast internet connections, secure online transactions, etc). There's not much in the way of hard work that needs to be done. The barrier is not technology, but more likely PUBLISHERS. I'm sure the developers would love to make more profit, but if the games industry is anything like the music/movie industries, then it's the publishers that are destroying it for everyone else in an inane attempt to control what's not theirs to control. Very sad.

The RIAA is still fighting Apple over iTunes. They demand higher and higher percentages of profit from RIAA-owned music, forcing the price up (and destroying what is one of the biggest selling points of iTunes). If the RIAA had it's way, we'd all be paying $50 for a CD with one or two hits and maybe three more mediocre b-sides. Luckily there still exists some competition to keep them honest. And as mentioned, the result is that fewer artists (particularly new ones trying to break into the scene) are using publishers, and are releasing direct to the public via places like iTunes, and in return are getting higher percentages of their profits back.

The games industry is slowly turning the same way. Mediocre titles being released for high prices, and limited availability at the discretion of the publishers. Thankfully in Australia, modchips are legal and I am allowed to play import titles thanks to our own ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) who have deemed that foreign-imposed region control is NOT acceptable in this country. I may also buy DVDs or any other media from any country I like. Responding to "antron" above, no this is not the same in US. Your country deems region control a perfectly acceptable thing to push onto it's so called "free" citizens. Don't like it? Speak with your local member of parliament and get it changed.

Beyond all that political mumbo jumbo , I'd love to see a centralised location for both established and independant developers alike to release their code and be rewardede for it financially. Nobody can deny the emulation scene is massive, and more and more people off the street know what MAME is. 9 years ago when it started, nobody knew of it outside of the "Dave's Classics" web forums. 5 years ago when it was in full swing, only the most harcore geeks had even heard of it. Today, I get mums and dads walking in off the street asking me if the cabs I sell can play MAME! How I'd love to direct them to an online portal and show them where they can pay reasonable amounts for near-perfect copies of their childhood favourites to play at home.

The demand is there. All someone has to do is convince the game developers to take the risk of flicking their publishers the bird and having a go. There's more profit to be made than 10% from a $20 PS2 compilation pack, but it just takes some guts.

[antron]

I may also buy DVDs or any other media from any country I like. Responding to "antron" above, no this is not the same in US. Your country deems region control a perfectly acceptable thing to push onto it's so called "free" citizens. Don't like it? Speak with your local member of parliament and get it changed.

you can break region control in the US (lots of region free DVD players on US ebay).
it is the outlawing of copyright protection circumvention that has re-written our rights. most people don't know it yet. the video i-pod is changing that.
"What do you mean I cant put my DVD on it!?!"

[zaphod]

Okay lots of points to respond to here.

1) The "NOt for use outside" blah blah blah is just standard CYOA stuff that co mpanies put on their arcades. theyey generally don't care. often simply by flipping a dip switchh that message changes.

2) buying boards FROM ARCADE OPERATORS helps the company. WHen money goes ito an operators hands from sal e of an old board it helps them get new boards. SO buying boad second hand from an arcade makes sense, and does indirectly help the companies.

3) But buying boards THIRD-hand does NOT! It's te same thing wth used CD stores. The artist/author never sees a penny. It boggles the mind that people will say "piracy is wrong"" and yet engage in a legal activity (buying used stuff) that's JST as damaging to the copyright holders as copyright violation. In fact, peole have tried to prevent the resale of their products for JUST THIS REASON. They usually fail, but you can hardly blame them for trying. If we apply the same standard of harm test used for determining fair use, we find that if everyone bought the used stuff, no new stuff would be bought and the company would get hardly any money! And that's a lto fo harm.

Unless you are buying thaat board first hand (from a distributor) or second hand (from an arcade who's done with it) then you are hurting them JUST as much as if you mamed it instead! No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Personally, I use MAME and the like a lot. but when people actually sell products, like Tatio Legends and what not, I buy them.

[GaijinPunch]

I don't think Japan gets to say what is illegal in your country.

They have some legal say so if someone exports the item (IE --the person that sells it to a person out of the region). How much is beyond me, but they do. I assume the worst case scenario would be they would kindly ask the reseller to stop. The only time I've seen anything like this is Sony threatening Lik Sang and Play Asia for shipping JPN PSP's to Europe. They could've easily tracked down the wholesaler, but it would bite into their overall sales. Simply tell them to cease and disist on the one product in question, and everyone's happy...except for millions in Europe.

[elvis]

Personally, I use MAME and the like a lot. but when people actually sell products, like Tatio Legends and what not, I buy them.

I think that's a healthy attitude to take. I own a "New Zealand Story" PCB, most probably 4th or 5th hand (off eBay). I also play it on MAME. When "Taito Legends" hit PS2, I snapped a copy up quicksmart. I've probably played it all of 3 times on PS2 (compared to the hundreds of plays on PCB and my MAME cab), but I don't care - I just want to make sure that I can give back to the companies who make great games in a financial manner.

I've done the same with all the Sega, Midway and Capcom retro packs, aswell as the various Psikyo compilations. And I'll continue doing so as long as people want to re-release good quality titles. Of course, simply making old and otherwise outdated ROMs available for legal home licensing via pay-for downloads would be just as profitable and probably less effort, but what do I know?.

[raiden]

But buying boards THIRD-hand does NOT! It's te same thing wth used CD stores. The artist/author never sees a penny. It boggles the mind that people will say "piracy is wrong"" and yet engage in a legal activity (buying used stuff) that's JST as damaging to the copyright holders as copyright violation. In fact, peole have tried to prevent the resale of their products for JUST THIS REASON. They usually fail, but you can hardly blame them for trying. If we apply the same standard of harm test used for determining fair use, we find that if everyone bought the used stuff, no new stuff would be bought and the company would get hardly any money! And that's a lto fo harm.

what kind of advice is that if the majority of PCBs are long gone from arcade owner´s hands. Should I buy a game I don´t really want just to support some foodchain, instead of buying the game I do want? That would be a true waste of money.

I've done the same with all the Sega, Midway and Capcom retro packs, aswell as the various Psikyo compilations. And I'll continue doing so as long as people want to re-release good quality titles. Of course, simply making old and otherwise outdated ROMs available for legal home licensing via pay-for downloads would be just as profitable and probably less effort, but what do I know?

I think you´ve given the answer yourself already. Software companies want us to change our hardware every given generation, so they can continue to sell us the same products over and over again. Especially with retro compilations, I distinguish by quality. If it´s something new like the Midway racing compilation, or the added challenges in the new Capcom collection, I buy them. The latter one was a close call, as the left out tate mode almost kept me from buying it. But why should I buy a Tecmo collection with no game on it I want to play, or a Strikers collection where both games are worse than their previous ports? Retro has become a big rip-off, too. What you suggested is something that would make gamers content. But content gamers don´t keep on buying things, that´s why companies prefer to release one imperfect retro compilation after the other.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't think Japan gets to say what is illegal in your

Indeed, note how many of the copyright disclaimers say "may be a violation of copyright."

Back to the topic at hand - I don't buy any retro compilation packs I don't want, and thus so far I think the only compilations I have are four Konami GB collection carts (three European, missing the fourth, and the Japanese equivalent of Euro vol. 3, again). I do have a few actual arcade games (three last time I checked), and I figure I can play some MVS games on MAME legally enough since I've got the home cart versions ;)

I don't see the use of badgering people into feeling they must get original arcade boards or compilation packs, though (not to say that anybody here is doing that, I'm just speaking from experience on other boards). First off, it makes them just want to ignore topics like these and drive them away from discussions; second, who's to say they don't spend money on other games from those companies? As noted, too many compilation packs seem rushed or poorly done.

If you're playing a game on MAME, no money is leaving the original manufacturer's pockets. The only point of view I really feel the need to condemn is the person who wouldn't spend money on games they regularly pay at any price - but there is a question as to whether manufacturers will ever release it at that price.

My problem is that I really like having something tangible to show for a purchase, and I distrust online catalogs of games (including Steam, but less so than say downloading original Xbox games off Live! as there's no clear guarantee of continued compatibility), so while $.75 would be a great price for any arcade game download, I wouldn't see myself actually buying them. Woo, overlong post.

[japtor]

Apple saw a huge hole in the music market when the release iTunes. In the first 48 hours of operation they made US$11 million PROFIT. Not sale, but actual all-expenses-counted PROFIT.

whered you get these numbers? cause i didnt remember them selling remotely enough to get that much profit (iirc they only make 20-30 cents/song, if not less, and im not sure thats taking into account bandwidth and storage space). searched around and found this article, with this:

more than 3 million songs sold in the first month after it opened April 28

granted, 'more than 3 million' could technically mean 50 million...but i doubt thats the case here.

nintendo will try their hand at an iroms type thing with revolution at least. im hoping theyll be open to letting other companies piggyback onto the service with their own system emulators or whatever, but i doubt thatll happen.[/quote]

[elvis]

what kind of advice is that if the majority of PCBs are long gone from arcade owner´s hands. Should I buy a game I don´t really want just to support some foodchain, instead of buying the game I do want? That would be a true waste of money.

No-one is asking you to put dogma ahead of common sense. After all, gaming is a want, and not a need. At the end of the day we all play games because we want to. It isn't life and death. Play the games you enjoy playing, but at the same time keep in mind whether or not you want the makers of these same game to release more titles in the future. In the case of some companies, their old stuff is definitely better than their new stuff (eg: Electronic Arts). I couldn't give a rats arse of EA in it's current form closed up shop, but I sure enjoy their titles from 15-20 years ago. Conversely I really like Cave's new stuff, and would like to see them continue to contribute to the gaming world.

But why should I buy a Tecmo collection with no game on it I want to play, or a Strikers collection where both games are worse than their previous ports? Retro has become a big rip-off, too. What you suggested is something that would make gamers content. But content gamers don´t keep on buying things, that´s why companies prefer to release one imperfect retro compilation after the other.

I agree. And again, I urge people to put common sense forward. I buy the retro re-releases that I enjoy. There have been plenty I haven't bought because quite frankly the original titles sucked pretty badly, or the re-releases were of such a poor quality that they didn't warrant the purchase, and there's no point giving publishers the wrong message by buying games you don't enjoy.

whered you get these numbers? cause i didnt remember them selling remotely enough to get that much profit

Apple made quite a big song and dance about it, and likewise Slashdot covered their financials in great detail. I will try to dig up some articles if I have the time.

nintendo will try their hand at an iroms type thing with revolution at least. im hoping theyll be open to letting other companies piggyback onto the service with their own system emulators or whatever, but i doubt thatll happen.

Thus far Nintendo have said that only Nintendo-developed and Nintendo-published titles will be available. So this limits them to big titles like the Zelda series, Mario series, Metroid series, etc. I have no idea if it includes Rare titles like the SNES Donkey Kong Country series and classics like Unirally (Uniracers in PAL regions), etc.

Again, the problem with western copyright law is that years later when people want access to old titles, their biggest fight is trying to get the owners of the copyright to care enough to re-release it. Download a copy and you are "stealing". Beg the developer to re-release it, and your requests fall on deaf ears. Neither alternative is a pleasant one for the avid retro gamer.

Philosphically speaking, are you "stealing" if you make a digital copy (and don't remove the original instance) of something that has no financial worth to the creator? Again, I'm in no way trying to justify breaking the law, but common sense prevailing the flaws in the current system are painfully obvious, and as mentioned the second-hand market serves as little comfort, especially when it is filled with sharks and hype profiteerers such as the eBay **BUY NOW RARE ITEM** crowd.

[sffan]

I was being sarcastic when I mentioned donating to Cave. They seem to be a pretty healthy company without need for our charity. Anyway if they wanted to make more money from Dodonpachi they could just re-release it on a PS2 collection and it would sell.

BTW I bought the PS1 version of DDP from the secondary market, but only because I wanted the port, not because I wanted to help Cave since Cave didn't get any of the money. I've given Cave a lot already by buying all of their PS2 games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Again, the problem with western copyright law is that years later when people want access to old titles, their biggest fight is trying to get the owners of the copyright to care enough to re-release it. Download a copy and you are "stealing". Beg the developer to re-release it, and your requests fall on deaf ears.

Generally speaking saavy companies understand that they have two choices - milk a product or release it as freeware if it is no longer economically significant (a great example is 3D Realms, with their periodic freeware releases of their early 2D Apogee titles).

Corporate inertia prevents many Japanese (and American) companies from releasing their old catalog, but it seems only the biggest companies (from Capcom to Namco, Taito, and Square, to some extent) have a significant enough following to warrant the cost of releasing older shooter titles on disc, and putting down the money to get those copies printed up, manuals done, and the works.

With broadband internet distribution, the only two issues you really need to worry about are finding server space (easy enough) and getting some emulation (not impossible either, to say the least - though good, tweaked, top-level competition level controls and graphics, uh, that's another story). It's hard to say if customers of Live! and Sony's unnamed competing service will be seen as worth even this small effort to release Mahou Daisakusen, say, but I think if there's any way a copyright owner can expect to squeeze some extra use out of those games, they will. Certainly some classic shooters are going to appear on Live! - that's basically guaranteed to happen.

[Dreg7]

Use powerstrip to create proper modes (or double scanrate modes if you play on a 31KHz+ monitor) and turn vsync OFF! Of course forcing your games to match Windows vblank and arcade-non-standard resolutions will cause lag. That's a no-brainer.

Once again I say, use a proper setup and these problems go away. Use a default Windows setup, and you have no sympathy from me. I stick with a custom-built Linux setup for a reason.

Sorry to post in this old thread. But I've got a question and few comments.

First my experience with Shmups, emulation and lag: I played plenty of arcade PCB shmups (Particularly Psykio SH-2 based games like Dragon Blaze, Strikers 1945 III,Gunbird 2) and played those same games on Mame and I can attest that what Elvis is saying is correct.

It IS possible to emulate a game with no more input lag than the original PCB, but it all depends on your setup. Some emulation setups will produce lag (in fact,most will) but some will not.

And don't think I can't notice lag either,I definitely can. Even something most non-shmups fans couldn't detect. When you played the PCB so many times you can immediately feel the difference if there is lag present.Heck, when there is, you end up getting hit where you normally didn't in difficult shooters (particularly Gunbird 2).



Now for my question: Elvis, how would you go about creating "proper modes" using Powerstrip? Thing is, the only way for me to kill off input lag using Mame is for me to turn off Vsync/Triple buffering but I end up experiencing the annoying "screen tearing". Is there any way to get rid of the screen tearing without enabling Vsync?

Note that I'm using a regular CRT monitor (yeah I know, not particularly great but like I said at least no screen tearing when Vsync/triple buffering is off.)

[elvis]

Now for my question: Elvis, how would you go about creating "proper modes" using Powerstrip? Thing is, the only way for me to kill off input lag using Mame is for me to turn off Vsync/Triple buffering but I end up experiencing the annoying "screen tearing". Is there any way to get rid of the screen tearing without enabling Vsync?

Note that I'm using a regular CRT monitor (yeah I know, not particularly great but like I said at least no screen tearing when Vsync/triple buffering is off.)

There's an excellent guide over on ArcadeControls.com:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43728.0

Read through it and see how you go.

[Ganelon]

I was being sarcastic when I mentioned donating to Cave. They seem to be a pretty healthy company without need for our charity. Anyway if they wanted to make more money from Dodonpachi they could just re-release it on a PS2 collection and it would sell.

Yeah, for a company that seems to scoff at budget releases, I doubt they care much for more cash.

[louisg]

Just my 2 cents, but I'd go for a Saturn setup over emulation unless it really is possible to do a perfect arcade-quality setup as mentioned on the thread earlier. The cabs I've experienced so far (like the Retrocade cab) seem to have a lot of issues with screen timing and tearing. I would like to see more on these synced MAME cabs though; that sounds interesting and possibly really worthwhile.

Whatever you do, keep that VSync on!

[Frogacuda]

MAME requires a pretty beefy machine to get full framerate in ST-V games. Like, pretty much a top of the line single core (dual core won't help).

Also, ST-V emulation in MAME is far from perfect, though it's pretty good for most games.

[Frogacuda]

I don't think Japan gets to say what is illegal in your country.

Look, do you want to feel the wrath of the full extent of the jam?

[captain ahar]

MAME requires a pretty beefy machine to get full framerate in ST-V games. Like, pretty much a top of the line single core (dual core won't help).

Also, ST-V emulation in MAME is far from perfect, though it's pretty good for most games.

and this depends on what games you are running.

guardian force runs acceptably well on my P4 1.8 Ghz, 512MB frankenstein computer... things like dynamite deka however run like shitzorz.