The Mario Kart DS thread

[sjewkestheloon]

we are talking about mario kart here as if it were a precision game like a shmup. that is simply not the intention and never has been as far as i can see. unless it's just me, mario kart has always been a real fun way to waste a bit of time or play an entertaining multiplayer. you do get thrown from first into 4th on the last corner by a bloody blue shell but that is a perfect display of the random element of the game. it's always been there and if anything i'd say it's as balanced as the snes games because the ai in the snes one had no blue shells but it had the ability to stick to your arse like glue even though you were 20 seconds faster than the last time you won.

[benstylus]

The blue shells do something far more sinister. They do not affect everyone or just the person directly in front of you, but they automatically bring the person in the lead to a complete stop.

Wrong, the blue shell does effect other players. As you have seen, the shockwave often knocks out people racing alongside the targeted player (and the person who shoots it if he is inexperienced enough to steer toward the destruction). Yes, only I will be affected by it....if I am well ahead of everyone and out of their range. Sure, I'm being "punished for being a good player" but I can live with that if I am just being stalled.

Yes, they CAN affect other players and I left that open, but generally speaking whoever's in second will hear it coming and they can slow down or stay away from you to avoid the blast. Then they can pass you with ease.

And like I've mentioned before, it seems that at least half the time when I'm hit with a blue shell, it's on the latter part of the final lap, making it impossible for me to catch up before the finish line.

[Dylan1CC]

What sjewkestheloon said.

And I stand by everything I already said.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

The game(s) are going to be cheap until they give you a way to avoid the shells of death.

[benstylus]

we are talking about mario kart here as if it were a precision game like a shmup. that is simply not the intention and never has been as far as i can see.

Most people do not see shmups as precision games - only the hardcore shmup fans do.

Likewise most people do not see kart racers as precision games. I consider them just as much a precision game style as a shmup - especially the flagship karting title - Mario Kart.

By making precise movements in a shmup, you can dramatically increase how long you live compared to someone who haphazardly dashes about the screen.

By making precise movements in Mario Kart, you can make tighter corners, powerslide-boost for additional speed and shave literally seconds off your best times. In scenarios where you're up against other people, precise movements might mean the difference between getting hit with a red shell or having it hit another obstacle (such as something you're carrying behind).

Basically the genre is what you make it. You can just play for fun if you want, or you can play for precision.

As with shmups, once you learn about some particular quirks of the game (such as color chaining in Radiant Silvergun), it's hard NOT to at least try to make use of them.

Unfortunately the random element of the blue shells throws the balance off and makes it difficult to achieve the same precision one would want out of a shmup.

Let's liken this to something that could be done in a shmup to illustrate my point.

What if a shmup was made where large bullets appeared instantly and randomly on the screen with no warning or 'warm up' time before they could kill you?

Let's say 5 large bullets appear randomly on the screen. Pretend the following white space is your screen.



Pick a spot on the "screen" for your ship.

Now click here to see where the bullets might have appeared.

Was your spot blacked out? Probably not - there was only a 1 in 20 chance.

But what if it happened frequently? Eventually you're going to get killed by them no matter how good you are.

Perhaps those 5 large bullets appear randomly every 15 seconds or so, If each of these bullet takes up 1% of the screen, you still have a 1 in 20 chance of being killed. Now this particular made up shmup takes 25 minutes of gameplay to clear.

So we'll generate some random numbers for your playthrough. There are exactly 100 intervals of 15 seconds each in a 25 minute game. If you have a 1 in 20 chance of being killed, we'll generate 100 numbers from 1 to 20.

YOUR NUMBERS

Count how many times the number 1 pops up in that list to calculate the number of random deaths you would have just suffered through your otherwise perfect play.

I got 7. That's seven deaths, which in a standard "3 life" game would result in 2 forced continues (allowing for one extra life to be earned).

The average number should be about 5, which is still at least one forced continue.

We shmuppers would be up in arms about something like that and would probably outright boycott that shmup. So why is it OK in Mario Kart?

Granted the blue shells in Mario Kart don't ruin every race, but I would say that it happens far more often than 7 races out of 100.

[BrianC]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I think you guys are over anaylizing the game. It's a highly competitive game with ways to get back up after getting hit by the blue shell unless you are close to the end with another racer behind you. Mario Kart is not the only game where other players totally can mess you up. Tetris and Dr. Mario aren't "broken" just becuase the player can send unavoidable attacks to his or her oppoent.

From what I heard, Mario Kart DS is not some "blue shell fest". Skilled players still have an advantage over non skilled players. Blue shells are annoying, but just becuase you got unlucky with them doesn't mean that they are the end of the game.

UFO, I don't understand your definition of broken. You say the game is good, but still call it broken. I think the word "broken" is overused here. It's used for any game that has some sort of flaw or annoyance. IMO, a broken game is just that, a game that is completely messed up and unplayable. That game is not Mario Kart DS.

Benstylus, multiplayer focused games often have some random element to them. It adds an element of luck or surprise to them. The blue shells are about the only attack besides lightning that's unavoidable and it's meant to give other players a chance to catch up. It's not like a shmup where you are a ship trying to avoid sharpnel. Random elements that instantly kill a ship in shmups are bad, but random elements in competitive games can add fun and mystery to a game. Also, it seems like you're ignoring the fact that blue shells are only game breaking when someone is close to the end (or so it seems from what I heard).

[jp]

Blue shells don't help people catch up unless its a 2 player race. All it does is screw over the best player.


And in a 2 player race, a blue shell pretty much ends the match if the opponents are somewhat. If I'm somewhat better and stay in the lead, player 2 will probably get a blue shell and fuck me over out of the lead. Nothing I can do if they reverse a bit and then shoot it.

Seriously, some guy and I were playing online and I started hanging back just to test my theory. EACH RACE I GOT A BLUE SHELL and in each race I got a blue shell I won. I've never lost a 2P race where I had a blue shell.

Its a broken item, and item generation is broken. Does this stop it from being the best Mario Kart? Na, not really. Is it really fucking annoying? Yes... yes it is.

[snap monkey]

No, that's not at all analogous. Blue shells are not some random force that automatically makes you lose a race. They are an item used by other players to delay the racer(s) toward the front of the pack. If someone decides to hold on to a blue shell until a particularly opportune time, then good for them; it's called playing with a strategy, not the result of a random number generator.

Trying to make this into a precision game would be a mistake; Mario Kart DS was never meant to be that, regardless of how the older versions played. It's perfectly legitimate to not like the blue shells, maybe they do ruin the game for you, but by design it's not meant to be taken this seriously. This is not a game you devote your life to mastering; that's what shmups, fighting games, and serious racers are for. Much like Smash Brothers and Mario Party, it's supposed to be a quick burst of multiplayer entertainment. That doesn't mean it's always fair, it just means it's supposed to be fun.

[sethsez]

Am I the only person who doesn't have most races ruined by the blue shell? I mean, for me it shows up about once every 20th race, and most times there's a way to recover from it, so the times when a blue shell will completely fuck me over to the point of never catching up are very rare. This just seems like another case of the shmups board nitpicking something to death.

[benstylus]

No, that's not at all analogous. Blue shells are not some random force that automatically makes you lose a race. They are an item used by other players to delay the racer(s) toward the front of the pack. If someone decides to hold on to a blue shell until a particularly opportune time, then good for them; it's called playing with a strategy, not the result of a random number generator.

Generally speaking, when the blue shell costs someone the race, the person who fired the blue shell is far enough behind that he wouldn't win anyway. It's the person who was in a close second place that ends up winning.

It's not just unfair, it's spiteful.

That doesn't mean it's always fair, it just means it's supposed to be fun.

Ane when it's not fair, it's not fun.

[BrianC]

No, that's not at all analogous. Blue shells are not some random force that automatically makes you lose a race. They are an item used by other players to delay the racer(s) toward the front of the pack. If someone decides to hold on to a blue shell until a particularly opportune time, then good for them; it's called playing with a strategy, not the result of a random number generator.

Generally speaking, when the blue shell costs someone the race, the person who fired the blue shell is far enough behind that he wouldn't win anyway. It's the person who was in a close second place that ends up winning.

It's not just unfair, it's spiteful.

In other words, it's still the person that's close behind that catches up, not the person far in the back. This means the person that throws the blue shell is not always the winner.

[jp]

No, that's not at all analogous. Blue shells are not some random force that automatically makes you lose a race. They are an item used by other players to delay the racer(s) toward the front of the pack. If someone decides to hold on to a blue shell until a particularly opportune time, then good for them; it's called playing with a strategy, not the result of a random number generator.

Generally speaking, when the blue shell costs someone the race, the person who fired the blue shell is far enough behind that he wouldn't win anyway. It's the person who was in a close second place that ends up winning.

It's not just unfair, it's spiteful.

In other words, it's still the person that's close behind that catches up, not the person far in the back. This means the person that throws the blue shell is not always the winner.

But pending on the circumstances and the "strategy" of the person firing the blue shell, the person getting hit is almost always the loser (if the shell is fired in the 3rd lap).

[sethsez]

No, that's not at all analogous. Blue shells are not some random force that automatically makes you lose a race. They are an item used by other players to delay the racer(s) toward the front of the pack. If someone decides to hold on to a blue shell until a particularly opportune time, then good for them; it's called playing with a strategy, not the result of a random number generator.

Generally speaking, when the blue shell costs someone the race, the person who fired the blue shell is far enough behind that he wouldn't win anyway. It's the person who was in a close second place that ends up winning.

It's not just unfair, it's spiteful.

You ignore one thing... the game doesn't award binary wins or losses, as such. You get a certain number of points depending on where you are in the race. If someone's been winning each race and then you can knock him into third place, you might not win that one race but it could help your chances for catching up over the course of the circuit.

And again, items are a central part of the game. It's not just "racing with some weapons thrown in" so if you want to play it that way, accept that you might lose because of it. In this game, sometimes it's to your benefit to stay back in second place. If you choose not to, you're aware of the possibilities.

[BrianC]

Doesn't the game have different cart stats for items? Would the lower item carts have less time loss due to the blue shell? Does haveing a high item cart provide more items for defending against the blue shell? Oh well, whatever the situation, I still want to play online when I get the game. I even set up my router just for getting the DS online. Pity battle mode isn't available online, but my sister is getting the game too, so I'll be able to play battle mode with her.

[sethsez]

Nah, all that does it make it more likely that you'll get a blue shell. If you have a cart with a really low item stat, chances of you getting the blue shell are slim. If you have a high item stat, it's much more likely.

[sjewkestheloon]

jesus god benstylus my comment that mario kart is not a precision game was not a comment to be taken in the most literal way. you didn't actually argue my point in any way, but just came up with a lengthy and obtuse load of bollocks which actually said very little. surely you can appreciate the point that i was trying to make?

i don't know if i'm the only one who does this but i'm able to see the whole picture and give comment for the interesting discussion. i don't go all out in an anal way to combat the language of a post rather than address the point in an INTERESTING way.

sorry if that sounds harsh but seriously...

[benstylus]

jesus god benstylus my comment that mario kart is not a precision game was not a comment to be taken in the most literal way. you didn't actually argue my point in any way, but just came up with a lengthy and obtuse load of bollocks which actually said very little. surely you can appreciate the point that i was trying to make?

i don't know if i'm the only one who does this but i'm able to see the whole picture and give comment for the interesting discussion. i don't go all out in an anal way to combat the language of a post rather than address the point in an INTERESTING way.

sorry if that sounds harsh but seriously...

All right, here's my argument that Mario Kart is a precision game.

Mario Kart DS, more than any other MK game, allows for and even encourages precision driving. This is why the game has a ranking system after every circuit or every mission. And it's quite difficult to get a 3 star ranking. I've yet to get a 3 star rating on any the circuits (I've gotten single stars for most of them, and a double star for 2 of them).

The game is an incredibly crafted balance of instant playability and hardcore refinement. A beginner can pick up and play the game and just have fun with it, while the advanced players can constantly focus on improving their times to improve their rankings.

Except the blue shells throw that balance out the window.

It doesn't matter if you drift perfectly and hug the inside corner of every turn. It doesn't matter if you can avoid or block any red shell that's thrown at you. It doesn't matter if you take all the shortcuts a track offers you.

If someone throws a blue shell while you're in first, you get hit. Period. And since it slows you down, it will also serve to decrease your ranking.

Yes, part of the problem is losing the race due to a blue shell in the final lap. But when a game offers a ranking system that is related strictly to time, it's completely unacceptable to have unavoidable hits - especially when it's a random occurence.

Slowing to stay in second place doesn't really help because you're losing time by going slower than you could.

Has anyone earned a 3 star ranking on any of the circuits? How many blue shells were you hit by?

[BrianC]

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=24994412 Some people here 3 starred every single circuit. It's tough, but definatly possible.

[FatCobra]

Don't forget the snakers! You know, those people that powerslide on straightaways to go faster than normal?

Hell, I snake a little. It helps ease the pain of the blue shells a little if you are way far ahead. I've also found another method of easing those blue shell blues. Slip over a banana peel! I'm not kidding here, for some reason, the shell will hit the spot you slipped on the peel, but not you! That's of course, you can find one to run over and you have to time it right, like when the shell begins to do it's loop-de-loop thing. Spinning out on a banana peel is far less harmful than being blown up by a blueie. Either that or hog a star and hope it doesn't get stolen or lost.

This game is awesome, but next Mariokart, I hope Nintendo gives us a way to counter those blue bastards (or bring back the N64 verison so at least everyone will suffer from it).

[Marc]

You should be able to turn them off is the bottom line. Personally, I fell out with MK the minute they dumbed down the red shells for the N64 version. On the SNES one, they still took some skill to use - they would miss if you were too close to an opponent, or at too tight an angle etc. N64? Instant hit, every time. The SNES game had such a perfect balance of weapons and racing I'm surprised that Nintendo have yet to reprise it exactly and simply upgrade the graphics.

[BrianC]

You should be able to turn them off is the bottom line. Personally, I fell out with MK the minute they dumbed down the red shells for the N64 version. On the SNES one, they still took some skill to use - they would miss if you were too close to an opponent, or at too tight an angle etc. N64? Instant hit, every time. The SNES game had such a perfect balance of weapons and racing I'm surprised that Nintendo have yet to reprise it exactly and simply upgrade the graphics.

That's odd, I thought it was the other way around with the red shells. They seemed to be less accurate in the N64 version. I remember being able to hit oppoents with the red shells even when they are a good distance away in the SNES version. However, in the N64 version, they would miss if the oppoent is too far away. Also, if you throw a red shell too close to a wall in the N64 version, it will fail. The SNES game isn't perfectly balanced either. The racers are on tracks and there is rubber band AI.

[Marc]

2 Player man. Fuck AI, that's always been retarded. The best thing about SNES Mario Kart is that, weapons included, the better player will still win 9 out of every 10 races. It's entirely skill based, and the weapons just add to the experience, rather than throwing the balance off. I agree that there's always been an element of randomness where MK is concerned, but it's become to large a part of the game for me these days. Blue shells were a shit idea, multiple red shells were a shit idea, and 1 minute+ lap times were a shit idea.

And red shells definitely took more skill to use properly on SNES.

[BrianC]

And red shells definitely took more skill to use properly on SNES.

I think you are blinded by nostaliga. I always had a harder time with red shells on the N64. They hit walls more often and don't hit automatically every time like you suggest.

[sethsez]

I still think people complaining about the randomness in current Mario Kart and how skill doesn't matter are simply people who don't know how to play it properly. Yes, there's an element of randomness to the game, but the people who win are the ones who know how to use that randomness to their advantage, and who know when it's best to get into first place and when it's best to hang out in second. If you're a great racer but have no clue what to do with the items, then you're not as skilled as you think you are and most of the time you're losing for a reason. Learn the entire game, not just half of it.

Also, the red shells can miss quite often and are easy to trick in this game. And, like the SNES version, they miss if they're launched too close.

[benstylus]

I still think people complaining about the randomness in current Mario Kart and how skill doesn't matter are simply people who don't know how to play it properly. Yes, there's an element of randomness to the game, but the people who win are the ones who know how to use that randomness to their advantage, and who know when it's best to get into first place and when it's best to hang out in second.

Explain to me how you win using your method and obtain triple star rankings as well.

[FatCobra]

I still think people complaining about the randomness in current Mario Kart and how skill doesn't matter are simply people who don't know how to play it properly. Yes, there's an element of randomness to the game, but the people who win are the ones who know how to use that randomness to their advantage, and who know when it's best to get into first place and when it's best to hang out in second.

Explain to me how you win using your method and obtain triple star rankings as well.

He snakes?

[benstylus]

I still think people complaining about the randomness in current Mario Kart and how skill doesn't matter are simply people who don't know how to play it properly. Yes, there's an element of randomness to the game, but the people who win are the ones who know how to use that randomness to their advantage, and who know when it's best to get into first place and when it's best to hang out in second.

Explain to me how you win using your method and obtain triple star rankings as well.

He snakes?

Snaking does not help when you're trying to stay in second.

[sethsez]

I haven't done single player since I unlocked everything, so if you want to know how to do that you might want to ask one of the many people on Gamefaqs who've managed it instead.

[benstylus]

I know how to get triple star rankings - and yes a lot of snaking is required.

My point was that staying in second place for the majority of the race won't help you do it.

[sethsez]

I'm talking about winning online matches. Ignoring snaking, of course.