Dodonpachi Saidaioujou general thread

[M.Knight]

While it is defintely fine if you don't like Milestone games, you are playing them wrong if you don't care about the scoring at all and only want to clear them. Think of them as caravan-style games with full-game lengths.
Actually, that's exactly how they were designed from Radirgy onwards. (cf. this interview translated by shmuplations)

—Why did you decide on another STG for your second title?

Kimura: We had decided that we wanted to do at least one STG title per year. There was no special deliberations or anything. (laughs) But our approach to creating Radirgy was very different from Chaos Field, so its concept was entirely different too. We wanted an older “Caravan STG” atmosphere, with a high-risk, high-return scoring system woven in.

Talking crap about Milestone games for being too easy while you stayed behind your shield the entire time is like complaining that 2-min/5-min caravan modes in Star Solider games are easy to clear. That said, it is true that these games are not for everyone. But the same would be said of any shmup, really.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Well said.

If you're just not into a style of gameplay, best to keep quite about it. Not everything can be fun for everyone, but nobody wants to hear someone say a fun game sucks because it wasn't fun for them.

[chempop]

Yeah guys, only express happy thoughts

So I popped in SDOJ (360) last night, it had been a while. I can usually save my lvl 10 hyper for the stage 3 midboss, and occasionally no miss the st3 boss.
Relearning stage 4 is rough, for some reason things fall apart for me at that mid boss. I feel like if I can secure the 1up there, and use 1 live and bomb out the st4 boss, I have a pretty good shot at having enough resources to clear. St5 is a doozy though.

[KAI]

Kai, where are you?

Hahaha, what a coincidence, I was away playing Sakura Famingo Archives. Radirgy is so easy I just lost a credit on the 1st stage while milking the boss...

[Bananamatic]

Kai, where are you?

Hahaha, what a coincidence, I was away playing Sakura Famingo Archives. Radirgy is so easy I just lost a credit on the 1st stage while milking the boss...

because you fell asleep

[Strikers1945guy]

Kai, where are you?

Hahaha, what a coincidence, I was away playing Sakura Famingo Archives. Radirgy is so easy I just lost a credit on the 1st stage while milking the boss...

because you fell asleep

beautiful

[KAI]

[Strikers1945guy]

Not sure if ugly girl or feminine boy

[Squire Grooktook]

You don't really seem to have a critical argument against the developer beyond "it's easy" which has been refuted several times by score play being challenging. For me "I don't have a reasonable argument that hasn't been logically countered several times" is usually the time I let something go or *gasp* acknowledge that I'm wrong on the internet.

Also she's cute.

[qmish]

i like that drawing, it's like first love

[Strikers1945guy]

You don't really seem to have a critical argument against the developer beyond "it's easy" which has been refuted several times by score play being challenging. For me "I don't have a reasonable argument that hasn't been logically countered several times" is usually the time I let something go or *gasp* acknowledge that I'm wrong on the internet.

Also she's cute.

The games are piss easy for survival, and I hate most of the scoring systems, so I've got no enjoyment on a scoring level and playing for a survival clear you could do with your eyes closed. Most of the art / backgrounds, while creative, suck. I remember playing Chaos Field and that game blew me away at how shit it is. Radirgy is the only real Milestone game I would say is decent, haven't played the sequel. The music in milestone games is pretty groovy however. Just not my cup of tea, we have equal amount of hatred for different companies or series across the board. Many people here hate Cave, Plenty of people will tell you how stupid the Raizing rank / suicide mechanic is.

Half the time when I throw a milestone jab into my comment it's to poke fun at Kai as I know he loves him some milestone. Don't get me wrong though Kai has excellent taste otherwise, he understands the beauty that is Ibara.

[Squire Grooktook]

Lots of games are easy for survival, but downplaying survival difficulty in favor of scoring risk/reward is a perfectly valid design style. If you don't like the lack of survival difficulty or the scoring mechanics, it's just a matter of preference, and doesn't make the games bad.

I don't really hate any major dev, or even the kusoge/euroshmup stuff. Different games are just different, mostly. Cave, Raizing, Milestone, Compile, Psyikyo, etc. all quality developers of different styles.

[Strikers1945guy]

Lots of games are easy for survival, but downplaying survival difficulty in favor of scoring risk/reward is a perfectly valid design style. If you don't like the lack of survival difficulty or the scoring mechanics, it's just a matter of preference, and doesn't make the games bad.

I don't really hate any major dev, or even the kusoge/euroshmup stuff. Different games are just different, mostly. Cave, Raizing, Milestone, Compile, Psyikyo, etc. all quality developers of different styles.

I don't believe I said they were all outright terrible, Radirgy is decent and I get the appeal of their games. I usually start out learning a new shmup and play abd try to clear on survival alone, slowly learning basic scoring and eventually if I love the game trying to master or learn all the little tricks and secrets.

I hate the constraints of the Dodonpachi chaining system. Daioujou for instance is great to play for just a survival aspect so I get something out of it. Ibara Kuro is so fun to play for score that I literally can't play for just survival, almost makes it boring. Scoring system is so much fun so I get the play for score entertainment.

I guess milestone games don't offer me either. Survival is irrelevant and score is bland and just not fun in most of their games. I don't -hate- any of their games but with so much out there I'll never have to play another one of their games as long as I live.

[Squire Grooktook]

Well, you said it was an atrocity last page :3

Of course, a bland scoring system for one person is not bland for another.

[DestroyTheCore]

The best way I can put my feelings about the game is that, while I like a lot about the way things are put together, the game felt "mean" to me in a way that no other title in the series did. Even DOJ, while tough, never felt like it was outright stealing lives from you; this one, though, for whatever reason, always seemed to kill me in spots where I could swear I should have gotten away with it. I don't know whether it's the aforementioned input lag, a change to the hitbox I never adjusted to, my own imagination, or something else entirely, but I never felt "comfortable" with SDOJ, almost every death made me say "whuh?" I really have no concrete explanation for why the bugger rubbed me that way, since so many other things about it make me want to consider it the best of the series (enough to throw it a zero vote, anyway), but if other challenging shooters I've enjoyed are intimidating tough guys with hearts of gold, this one's just a big, strong, handsome jerk.

It sums up my thoughts about SDOJ very accurately, although 1.5 basically addressed this specific issue.

[d0s]

A Psikyo fan calling another company's scoring system boring

[Strikers1945guy]

A Psikyo fan calling another company's scoring system boring

The Psikyo games are balls to the wall hard for survival in the second loop so it makes sense to have a simple scoring system. A piss easy milestone game where you can make it hard through scoring doesn't really help sell the game. Look guys it's piss easy but if you really drag out the scoring system and milk everything it gets hard !

[d0s]

A Psikyo fan calling another company's scoring system boring

The Psikyo games are balls to the wall hard for survival in the second loop so it makes sense to have a simple scoring system. A piss easy milestone game where you can make it hard through scoring doesn't really help sell the game. Look guys it's piss easy but if you really drag out the scoring system and milk everything it gets hard !

So it's ok for Psikyo games to be shitty in one aspect and good in another but when Milestone reverses it it's bad? Come on man (for the record I fuckin love Psikyo and Video System)

[Strikers1945guy]

A Psikyo fan calling another company's scoring system boring

The Psikyo games are balls to the wall hard for survival in the second loop so it makes sense to have a simple scoring system. A piss easy milestone game where you can make it hard through scoring doesn't really help sell the game. Look guys it's piss easy but if you really drag out the scoring system and milk everything it gets hard !

So it's ok for Psikyo games to be shitty in one aspect and good in another but when Milestone reverses it it's bad? Come on man (for the record I fuckin love Psikyo and Video System)

Just my 2 cents man, if anyone loves milestone that's all cool. There are things I can look past if the rest of the game is amazing or appealing to me. Milestone games are unappealing to me in basically every way and the art style is original but usually god awful imo.

I know there are milestone fans here and that's great. The games are horrible to me in basically all aspects. There's nothing for me to look past and see the beauty elsewhere since it's just a giant turd.

[qmish]

But why do you mention your opinion on Milestone every time then?

[Strikers1945guy]

But why do you mention your opinion on Milestone every time then?

For fun. If I'm hurting someone's feelings I'll stop

[qmish]

For fun. If I'm hurting someone's feelings I'll stop

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog

[d0s]

But why do you mention your opinion on Milestone every time then?

For fun. If I'm hurting someone's feelings I'll stop

It's less that people's feelings are hurt and more that it's unnecessary and makes you seem like kind of a cock. There are plenty of games I don't like (some of which are absolutely loved by this forum) but I don't feel the need to tell the world about them every chance I get, in unrelated threads even. Live and let live!

[chempop]

Call to rename thread: 'SDOJ meh--then remember milestone, SDOJ is good again!'

[Strikers1945guy]

But why do you mention your opinion on Milestone every time then?

For fun. If I'm hurting someone's feelings I'll stop

It's less that people's feelings are hurt and more that it's unnecessary and makes you seem like kind of a cock. There are plenty of games I don't like (some of which are absolutely loved by this forum) but I don't feel the need to tell the world about them every chance I get, in unrelated threads even. Live and let live!

It's more about comparison. If we are talking about a certain game and I'm talking art style / survival play / mechanics / whatever milestone games are good for comparison purposes because they do almost everything wrong in every area

Good examples of bad ideas

[d0s]

milestone games are good for comparison purposes because they do almost everything wrong in every area

So everyone who likes those games is wrong because you, Strikers1945guy, says so. Got it. Like I get having opinions but declaring them as absolute fact is what's rubbing people the wrong way here, there's a difference between saying "yeah sorry I don't get those games I think they're shit" and saying they're objectively bad because you're not into it. At this point it seems like you're just trying to be a dick by shitting on stuff other people like, not really trying to have a discussion so I'll drop it, sorry for the massive derail.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, all I can say is that if you think they're outright "wrong", and a good place of comparison for "wrongness" then it's not the games that have a problem, it's you who has a problem because you either can't understand how they're meant to be played or can't understand what kind of preference's that playstyle would appeal to.

"A mediocre game designer only understands why he likes the games he enjoys. A great game designer understands why other people like the games he doesn't enjoy."

[CloudyMusic]

So everyone who likes those games is wrong because you, Strikers1945guy, says so. Got it. Like I get having opinions but declaring them as absolute fact is what's rubbing people the wrong way here, there's a difference between saying "yeah sorry I don't get those games I think they're shit" and saying they're objectively bad because you're not into it. At this point it seems like you're just trying to be a dick by shitting on stuff other people like, not really trying to have a discussion

That sort of attitude is sadly pretty common in this community as a whole. Why bother respecting any opinion that's different than your own? Just say that what they like is shit, and that they should stop having bad opinions.

[Strikers1945guy]

milestone games are good for comparison purposes because they do almost everything wrong in every area

So everyone who likes those games is wrong because you, Strikers1945guy, says so. Got it. Like I get having opinions but declaring them as absolute fact is what's rubbing people the wrong way here, there's a difference between saying "yeah sorry I don't get those games I think they're shit" and saying they're objectively bad because you're not into it. At this point it seems like you're just trying to be a dick by shitting on stuff other people like, not really trying to have a discussion so I'll drop it, sorry for the massive derail.

Dude. I hate their games. Every aspect of them to me reeks of mediocrity. I've said it many time if people like them then awesome !! For me, when discussing whatever game, I use milestone games as comparisons because I feel they do a lot of things wrong / poorly. It's just my opinion no one is wrong for liking them.

Same as I'm a Psikyo fan people have the right to hate on the games. They do some stuff poorly as well. I keep saying if people like milestone games that's great everyone has different taste. Why is it so bad for me to vocalize my opinion of their games from my point of view? I also think Ikaruga has horrible gameplay because for survival it's dot eater and for score it's just as restrictive as DDP chaining. To each their own ! You can't be mad when someone on a very niche forum doesn't like part of the program. I don't get upset when I see people hating on _______ because that's all part of the great debate and people's tastes.

But yes back on topic... uhh Saidaioujou?

[Squire Grooktook]

Same as I'm a Psikyo fan people have the right to hate on the games. They do some stuff poorly as well.

Do they? The point is, a "wrong" that Psikyo does could be a "right" to someone else.

There are objective elements to game analysis though, like...

I also think Ikaruga has horrible gameplay because for survival it's dot eater

This is objectively, provably wrong, as we discussed before. If you have a 1cc of the game playing pacifism, I'd like to see it, because not shooting anything makes the game FAR harder then shooting things carefully, IMO. I don't know why you keep saying this, when pacifist play is the easiest way to get yourself murdered past the first stage.