Do you use turbo/auto buttons? Are they cheating?

[Doctor Butler]

Depends on if it's natively in the game.

Cave's 360 ports all include auto-fire, so using it is fine.
Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

[Bananamatic]

Depends on if it's natively in the game.

Cave's 360 ports all include auto-fire, so using it is fine.
Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

most cave games support C to autofire through dipswitches, if not all of them

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Pink Sweets port would have been a lot more playable with rapid fire A and B options as well. That and infinite lives. There's quite a bit of scoring reasons for both of those. Rapid fire lets you jack up the rank more quickly as well as easily lets you get to 30 fire rate, and infinitely lives due to all the strats that involve it.


yeah even Donpachi, Dangun Feveron, and DoDonPachi had that. Though since it's not default it was pretty much an issue when trying to record replays obviously.

[trap15]

Depends on if it's natively in the game.

Cave's 360 ports all include auto-fire, so using it is fine.
Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

Nearly every shooting game cabinet in Japan has at least one autofire button.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

The stuff they have for the Yagawa Raizing games definitely seem nice. Quickly adjustable autofire rates, though I'm not sure how you'd optimally use it because I don't play those. The Mushihimesama rapid fire record also had something like that.

[Ghegs]

Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

Nearly every shooting game cabinet in Japan has at least one autofire button.

I've saved some links to previous discussions about this so I can refer to them when the autofire question inevitably is raised again.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 88#p738688
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 74#p734474
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 56#p463556
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 13#p463813

NTSC-J should fix those images in the first one.

[NTSC-J]

"Cheating" implies doing something your opponents aren't, but if everyone uses autofire it isn't cheating.

That's only as it applies to a competition. Cheating more generally implies subverting a game in some manner. If everyone uses the same cheats then sure, the competition turns into a slightly separate metagame from the video game itself, and doing that agreed-upon thing is not against the rules of the metagame. But it's just silly to not be able to admit that it's still cheating within the video game.

I think my objection is to the word "cheating". It implies dishonesty and the score or clear shouldn't count, and that's too extreme for this situation. Clearly it's an advantage in older games, but no one is hiding the fact that they use it, just as you'd admit to using the X-36 to clear Strikers 1999.

Is it really worthwhile to say that the vast majority of people that play these games are cheaters? I think we should save the accusation for when it really counts, like submitting a score that was achieved playing a game at 20% speed and not disclosing that.

That's indeed a good rule of thumb, but it sure is odd that we never seem to hear about any of these autofire OFF scores then.

While it isn't especially popular in Japan either, just about every game has a superb autofire OFF world record. Our Hall of Records thread has 36 autofire OFF scores currently listed, and after I'm done revising it with all ship types there will be many, many more.

And bent out of shape that the Japanese arcade scene is doing the right thing by separating autofire on and off scores? This is first I've heard of such a reaction.

I know I've read posts from members turning their nose up at people using autofire for Darius Gaiden. I understand that it's a harder game without it, but as I've mentioned before, it makes competition that much tighter because high-scoring autofire runs are so optimized.

Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

Nearly every shooting game cabinet in Japan has at least one autofire button.

I've saved some links to previous discussions about this so I can refer to them when the autofire question inevitably is raised again.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 88#p738688
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 74#p734474
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 56#p463556
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 13#p463813

NTSC-J should fix those images in the first one.

[BIL]

Whoa it's beautiful

[MathU]

I know I've read posts from members turning their nose up at people using autofire for Darius Gaiden. I understand that it's a harder game without it, but as I've mentioned before, it makes competition that much tighter because high-scoring autofire runs are so optimized.

And as I have explained in the past myself, turbo autofire in Darius Gaiden actually has the effect of reducing the need for optimization and making strategic point decisions. It is unwise to just assume that autofire scoreplay results in tighter competition or a higher demonstration of knowledge and skill when it comes to deconstructing a game. In the example of this game at least, it makes the competition shallower in a number of ways.

Darius Gaiden actually has a rather deep adaptive difficulty system that one needs to consider when thinking about maximizing their points when played normally. In addition there's three final zones in the game that can end up with quite close final scores as well so there's a large number ways to play and stages to specialize in. Turbo autofire completely negates the need to map out a plan for strategic adaptive difficulty management in the game because one can easily capture the final two stage minibosses with their highest health due to maxed adaptive difficulty, and the focus shifts entirely on the route to Great Thing because milking its drills (something that is normally extremely difficult if not outright impossible with human tapping rates) completely blows out the potential scores on the other three routes. And that's all aside from the general fact that it allows one to blow away so many enemies and bosses on the highest difficulty before they even can do anything threatening--so one hardly needs to learn the ins and outs of enemies to the same extent.

In a way this debate is kind of analogous to all the different categories for speed running. When you reach a point where people figure out how to beat a five-hour game in five minutes through some crazy skip to the end credits at the beginning of the game, what is really left of the competition itself? So yeah it's good to separate vanilla competition from ones that use cheats or heavy exploits, but it can't really be said that the exploit/cheat-heavy competition always results in tighter or more interesting competition.

[ProjectAKo]

That autofire tuner is better than I got on MAME for god's sake

[Blade]

Macros (and of course I refer to premade combinations that enable to do complex combos with the press of a button, not binding 3P and 3K for example) and turbo in fighting games are definitely cheating and people like you make online playing a worse experience.

Because fighting online is the only experience?

Execution barriers are integral to the genre and removing them breaks them, enabling things that are not possible otherwise,

Explain "Easy Mode" then? Is it game breaking to have something like Stylish instead of Technical active? Or how about Turbo in Marvel?
What about Slash/Bust or alternate fighting styles in Mortal Kombat X?
Also, there's no law that says an execution barrier should keep players from playing who they like.

like Honda being able to do Hundred Hands Slaps out of nowhere

What about players who mash online and spam attacks randomly anyway? Or what about the parry system in 3rd Strike? There's other things in games that are highly abuse-able. No such thing as a perfectly balanced fighting game to begin with.

characters being able to do perfect SPDs that are much faster to execute than normal

There's only a handful of players I know have a macro or means/talent to do standing 360s or 720s, but from a technical standpoint it's still a command throw like any other. I suggest you don't get thrown, then. That goes for any grappler, really. Ever heard of DPing or jumping out of throw attempts?

Also autofire sends lots of garbage inputs that lag the game online.

Again, why are you playing online then? Also, lag happens when mics are on and other causes too. It's not exclusive to autofire.

If you don't care how to properly execute Chun's and Honda's mashing attacks (there are ways to perform them well without busting your hands, by the way) or whatever, play some other character instead of ruining the game for your opponent, please.

Oh woe is me, someone ruined my gaming experience by using a perfectly executed Grand Viper "Clean Hit". Guess I'll have to learn to block it, jump over it, or use a normal that beats it next time. Or use parry/blitzshield.

Seriously, having auto-fire in a fighting game doesn't kill the experience... if anything it just helps players adjust to how some characters work until they learn the characters better.

I'd say lag-switching and ragequits are far worse than autofire any day.

Oh, sorry, that's right, online gaming is the only way to play according to you.

And before I forget... getting fainted/dizzied involves mashing, and it's a pain when players abuse setups that force a player to mash out. Think about that next time someone spams a move that staggers you or gets you dizzied over and over.

[Hagane]

Because fighting online is the only experience?

At a tournament environment, online or any meeting it's very rude and always frowned upon. I'd be surprised if you play with anyone that are not the 2 or 3 close buddies that tolerate that bullshit.

Explain "Easy Mode" then?

Easy mode in Marvel games is meant for casuals to mash stuff and is severely limited for real play. It's a terrible mechanic by the way because they'll never rise above that level. Same with mash combos in something like the Persona games. Definitely not the same as being able to do things that are not humanly possible otherwise that are better than playing fair and square though.

Execution barriers are completely necessary for the genre. It's what makes it different from a turn based strategy game, and what makes many of its timing based mechanics work. If you don't understand this, the genre is not for you.

What about players who mash online and spam attacks randomly anyway? Or what about the parry system in 3rd Strike? There's other things in games that are highly abuse-able. No such thing as a perfectly balanced fighting game to begin with.

What does randomly spamming attacks have to do with being able to do things that are not humanly possible otherwise (dumbing the game down in the process)? A correct comparison would be to have some sort of auto-parrying program.

If you are getting hit by random stuff it's your fault, if you are being cheated it's not.

There's only a handful of players I know have a macro or means/talent to do standing 360s or 720s, but from a technical standpoint it's still a command throw like any other.

No it's not. You are being able to consistently do a move in the shortest amount of time possible with the press of a single button, which makes reacting to things much easier than having to do the full motion, effectively affecting how the game plays.

Guess I'll have to learn to block it, jump over it, or use a normal that beats it next time. Or use parry/blitzshield.

Guess you could learn to play the games instead of resorting to cheats, too.

Seriously, having auto-fire in a fighting game doesn't kill the experience... if anything it just helps players adjust to how some characters work until they learn the characters better.

Yes it does, because its users never try to improve their game and only resort to doing the same laggy abusable otherwise impossible to execute stuff over and over, making things worse. It allows for perfect reversals, perfect throw breaks, removes any kind of timing for links, etc.

I played Honda in ST and I learned to do fierce hands legit. It's not that hard, and it doesn't break the game like turbo does. But taking a bit of time to do research is more than some people are willing to do, I guess. I find it amusing that you would defend this kind of stuff. What's next, TASing is OK for scoreplay?

[Despatche]

"Mashing" isn't dumb, but autofire isn't "cheating". They are simply two different ways of playing the game, and there is no issue as long as they are recognized as separate things.

Directly competitive games are completely different. Character balance matters, and players need to agree on using things like autofire.

And as I have explained in the past myself, turbo autofire in Darius Gaiden actually has the effect of reducing the need for optimization and making strategic point decisions.

You have explained nothing. You understand nothing about Darius Gaiden. You have no idea how fundamentally busted this game is. You don't even play it properly, as you throw all final stages (not even getting into routes) into a single category.

[Gamer707b]

Interesting question. I've grown up with the game genie way back and never used it. Never owned one of those 'help' add ons. I always use whaytever the game gives me. Sorta like an unwritten rule, not just for shooting game, but for games in general. Even now, when Im stumped on a puzzle or whatever , it feels really satisfying doing on my own. I only use walkthroughs if Im absolutely stuck. With that said , to each his own. I don't care how others choose to play. Doesn't affect me either way. If it motivates others to keep playing, then so be it. On a side note about those mentioning the auto fire cheat in Darius Gaiden. Just my opinion as this has already been talked about many times. I think the auto fire cheat breaks the game imo. Even if the default auto fire appears to be too slow, the game feels like it was built around it. I have played it both ways and it feels way better playing without the cheat.

[NTSC-J]

turbo autofire in Darius Gaiden actually has the effect of reducing the need for optimization and making strategic point decisions. It is unwise to just assume that autofire scoreplay results in tighter competition or a higher demonstration of knowledge and skill when it comes to deconstructing a game...

Turbo autofire completely negates the need to map out a plan for strategic adaptive difficulty management in the game because one can easily capture the final two stage minibosses with their highest health due to maxed adaptive difficulty, and the focus shifts entirely on the route to Great Thing because milking its drills (something that is normally extremely difficult if not outright impossible with human tapping rates) completely blows out the potential scores on the other three routes. And that's all aside from the general fact that it allows one to blow away so many enemies and bosses on the highest difficulty before they even can do anything threatening--so one hardly needs to learn the ins and outs of enemies to the same extent...

I think you're still missing what I'm saying. My point is because Gaiden autofire players don't have to worry as much about killing enemies or capturing the captains, competition becomes much tighter at a high level. It means that there isn't as big a difference between intermediate and advanced player scores as there is with a game like DDP Daifukkatsu which is longer, harder, and has many more variables.

So you can still say it's "easier", but you still have to put in a ton of work and master every nook and cranny if you want a top score. Even with a number of serious Gaiden players on this forum, we haven't seen any 14m+ scores or even any 13m scores, so there's still plenty of challenge left.

As Despatche pointed out (maybe not in the nicest way), you still seem to lump all modes together. The Z' route score with the drill milking is going to be much higher than the rest, but no one compares them. I think all serious players can understand that an 11m V' score is exceptional despite being much lower than what you can get from Great Thing.

[Despatche]

I swear that I'm only rude because he keeps trying to peddle that nonsense whenever this topic comes up. It's worse than him moaning about Steam, because at least there he has the right and the reason to personally object to the way Steam works (he does not have the right to bitch about it in every single thread).

[Blade]

Interesting question. I've grown up with the game genie way back and never used it.

As someone who has, I can tell you that not all games can be beaten with Game Genie or other Hex Editors.

Snake, Rattle, N' Roll's final boss is a BEAST even with infinite lives.

You probably would need Turbo to beat it, or some TAS, otherwise doing a perfect mash of hits while dodging meteors is really hard to do in and of itself. Unless you dip-switch a code to instant-kill the boss.

Not all game designers were thinking straight when they designed certain games, which is what Fighting Game fans especially need to REALIZE and get over!

This is why I don't obsess over competition and game balance like some people. Games will NEVER be perfect...

Sure, competition is fun, but you shouldn't take it so seriously that you neglect to realize that every game has issues, even at a tournament level.

I've fought players who used turbo and I never complained about the experience... even if it was to their benefit.

[Pasky]

Depends on if it's natively in the game.

Cave's 360 ports all include auto-fire, so using it is fine.
Emulating the arcade versions of those game's in MAME, and setting up an auto-fire macro is cheating, however, since the cabinets lacked that feature.

Nearly every shooting game cabinet in Japan has at least one autofire button.

Wasn't this done more for wear and tear? I could imagine their benefit of autofiring rather than people beating up their buttons to replace them lol.

[trap15]

@Blade: learn to play

[Strikers1945guy]

(he does not have the right to bitch about it in every single thread).

Of course he does its MathU.

[Blinge]

Forgive me for interrupting your little gang up session, but I don't see anyone bitching about Steam/DRM in this thread.

It is irrelevant and was brought up by dear delightful despatchey, not MathU, in an unnecessarily hostile post.

[OmKol]

Interesting question. I've grown up with the game genie way back and never used it.

Snake, Rattle, N' Roll's final boss is a BEAST even with infinite lives.

You probably would need Turbo to beat it, or some TAS, otherwise doing a perfect mash of hits while dodging meteors is really hard to do in and of itself. Unless you dip-switch a code to instant-kill the boss.

It's easier than average arcade machine game. Managed to beat it without turbo having not so good mashing skills. This boss is not about just mashing.