Do you miss the pre bullet hell era?

[qmish]

Dogyuun harder than most Cave games, would you agree?

[cfx]

.

[Hagane]

If you can't 1cc the first stage of a Cave game it means you need to learn the basics (peripheral vision, streaming, macro dodging, etc). You are probably moving around without a plan, not understanding how the patterns work and trying to dodge everything on reaction, getting yourself trapped in the process. Once you understand these simple aspects, things will start making sense and all those bullets will stop looking like random splurges of pink stuff. There are tutorials on this site that will help you learn the basics.

Which doesn't mean that you will suddenly be able to 2-ALL Ketsui or beat Futari Ultra, but you will be able to handle lower difficulty modes much easier at first, and then move up as you get better. Most modern games give you lots of resources you should be using to make things easier.

One thing modern developers should do to make people understand these games would be to include hands-on tutorials that explain how to deal with basic stuff, so people don't feel so threatened by things that aren't that threatening once you understand them.

[MathU]

I miss the fact that new shooters in the more classic styles aren't made so much, but there are still so many old ones I have yet to enjoy to the fullest.

One thing more specific that I do miss very much though is games without bullet-canceling smartbombs.

[Stevens]

One thing more specific that I do miss very much though is games without bullet-canceling smartbombs.

One of the things I find most interesting about Zero Gunner 2 is that you don't have a bomb.

[Despatche]

Most pre-bullet hell games are way more intense than what we have now. You've fallen for the OMG HARDEST GAME EVAR~~~!!!! trap. Newer games usually decrease the raw difficulty and replace it with complicated scoring systems. Seriously, play some CAVE game, then go try playing Raiden II, it's so fucked.

[gray117]

In a way.

The thing is the topic implies if we didn't have all these bullet hells we'd have more shmups of other varieties, that the previous non bullet hell era would be extended, and I don't think that's the case - we'd just have less shmups period I think.

The rise of bullet hell and the fall from grace of shmups (and arcades) was simply more due to evolving hardware/genres/markets than some kind of self sabotage.

At least mechanically I enjoy most bullet he'll shmups and they provide very showy theatres for the best players to exhibit their skills and for the rest of us a frantic excitement few other genres offer just to complete a decent run.

Can we have some more of both eras please? (I know I know - diy...)

[Sumez]

My first shoot'em up love was Gradius, but if you asked me today, most of my favourite shooters would be bullet hell, or close to it.
I still miss a lot of elements from before bullet hell became the standard, though. But there are also things I really don't miss.


What I don't miss:
Powerups
Checkpoints
Damage from hitting walls
Lack of risk-vs-reward scoring

What I miss:
Level design
Environmental hazards - ie. let them appear as hazards, not as walls
Being able to see the background
Variation in other things than the scoring system
Being killed by a single stray bullet due to clever level design, making me appear like a total dofus
Spaceships


I feel like a lot of elements that are typically exclusive to certain types of shooters, really don't need to be. There's no reason you can't have a great scoring system in a hori, or level design in a vert (see: Ikaruga).
There's no reason to go all in on the bullet hell either. A lot of my favourite shooters, as well as early bullet hell examples only really go all out danmaku on bosses and later stages. I feel that if your game isn't a constant bullet hell, the moments where they are, come across a lot more epic! Recently I've been getting back into Blazing Star (which was really the reason I just "rediscovered" this forum), and that's a pretty good example of this. It's not a bullet hell game at all, but has awesome moments where it comes close.
I'd love to see more "mix and match" and variation in modern shooters.

[Pedro Lambrini]

I don't really miss the older shmups as such (God knows I've got plenty to play in my pile of shame!) but I miss aspects of them in modern games. It's almost like shmup devs have all taken the same evolutionary path leaving the potential of many other paths and variations to wither on the vine so to speak.

There really is no reason why all the 'big name' shooters of today tend to be bullet hell. The only thing I can really think of is that ugly monster known as ego. So called 'hardcore' players and devs who relish learning the slightest movements to navigate a sea of dots. Designing for themselves and for the niche community.

A few years ago I went through an "OMG Bullet Hell" phase. I'm kinda past that now and actually prefer 'simpler' looking games. Looking back on it, it reminds me of when I was younger and learning guitar. As I improved I left behind presumed simple playing and got more and more technical. You know what, though? Loads of shredding in E sounds a helluva lot like shredding in G, or A, C, D and anything in between.

Nuanced game-play can be found in other ways but at the moment it's either a screen filled with green dots, pink dots, blue dots or a mixture all three!

Facetiousness aside, I'd like to see more shmups with better evolved, truly clever enemy ship AI and landscapes with imaginative topography and environmental hazards. It seems to me that the genre is going through a Steve Vai, Paul Gilberts, Joe Satriani shred-fest. Eventually, I think the genre'll 'mature' past that a bit and look for other ways to stimulate the player. Like Vai going off and recording a Hendrix inspired album, to continue the analogy.

Sorry to anyone who feels patronised by my 'old fogey' words. That's not my intention. It's just hard not to come across like that on the interwebs sometimes.

[qmish]

Come on, man, dual hand tapping is awesome and can be used for beautiful melodies too, not only "look I m shredding fast". Don't say you grew from it and only dig "simple" riffs. Why can't you love both ?

And yes you just called last 20 years of shmups.. Immature teen life?!

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

It seems to me that the genre is going through a Steve Vai, Paul Gilberts, Joe Satriani shred-fest. Eventually, I think the genre'll 'mature' past that a bit and look for other ways to stimulate the player. Like Vai going off and recording a Hendrix inspired album, to continue the analogy.

That's an interesting idea, lots of artists go through the simple -> complex -> more focussed simple thing, never thought about it in relation to shmups. Of course there are plenty of external motivators (hardware, growing expertise of player base, and niche status of the genre) and shmups as a whole aren't the same as an artist individual but the idea that shmups could come back as some sort of 2.0 version is intruiging.

[Pedro Lambrini]

Come on, man, dual hand tapping is awesome and can be used for beautiful melodies too, not only "look I m shredding fast". Don't say you grew from it and only dig "simple" riffs. Why can't you love both ?

And yes you just called last 20 years of shmups.. Immature teen life?!

Oh, totally. I do love both. I was just making a broad and sweeping (see what I did there?) comparison. My post was waaaaay too long and meandering. I just tried edit it down to give a 'gist' point of view.

I do like both (in music and shmup terms). Just trying to put my thoughts out there - which isn't easy with this addled brain!

Of course, there are other factors at play and, of course, there's room for both. I'd just like to see what would happen if some of the more seasoned coders went 'back to basics'.

While coarse and crude, I still think my analogy holds water. Look at what's happened in mainstream gaming in the past 20 years. It went from 2D platformers, fighters and shmups where the number of on-screen colours and the bit count of CPUs were the de facto sales pitch to, virtually overnight, 3D EVERYTHING. Colours and CPU speed didn't matter. Only polygons and fill rates mattered. Devs making 2D stuff struggled to find publishers and 'primitive' games were maligned in magazines as old and tired. Sony, at one time, even had an official policy of throttling 2D game releases on their systems!

Nowadays, with a more mature market there is room for AAA 3D eye candy and the primitive styles of yesteryear... People aren't so enamoured by what's over the horizon and are more comfortable accepting games in all their forms without fear of falling behind the tech curve. I think the same will happen with shmups. The market will, again, find its feet and will become more varied in its tastes. I'm just waiting for that time.

It seems to me that shmups were once king. Then platformers. Then first person shooters. All around I see more and more signs of fatigue when it comes to FPS's. That's, to my mind, part of the reason why gamers are going back to older styles. Finding something they miss and refining it for modern times. It'll happen (and always has been happening in the 'indie' scene) with shmups too...

FAKE EDIT: I was rambling on and on again. I think I'll shut up now! Hope I've made my thoughts clearer... though probably not!

[gray117]

It seems to me that shmups were once king. Then platformers. Then first person shooters.

Arcade was.once king when hardware was expensive and rapidly evolving. Platformers became king when the home market grew and it found an accessible favourite medium. It was a transition often supported by former arcade luminaries such as shmups and then fighters, but yep sonic and Mario became the poster children of that era for good reason. First person shooters grew once home market price hardware could support a compelling enough image that the most immediate perspective - first person - became realisable at a relatable fidelity, and now are often related to as the block buster games. Again a process in maturation aided by third person adventurers.

Whilst none of these markets and genres have totally disappeared and the overall market has grown in size. Support and attention for various genres has waxed and waned during such evolution.

It's probably worth bearing in mind touch games are probably king in terms of customer base and revenue.

Where is shmups place in this? It's possible they find mainstream success and popularity as an accessible conceit but I don't think bullet hell nor older style shmups are really likely to top the popular agenda in the way we tend to think of them. More likely profitable but niche markets will gradually develop based around hardware and input choices upon which a portion of that may be what we recognise as shmups - in a similar manner to fighting games - they'll always be a few million genre fans maybe more, but dwarfed by the larger market - but that's kind of OK as long as smaller devs don't get priced out of an affordable business model.... And therein lies the difficulty with free-to-play and the various customer and perceived value expectations that develops.

To bullet hell or not to bullet hell has relatively little to do with the growth/lack thereof of the genre. Rather the ability to affordable reach the genre fans in a manner they're wanting to experience these games is more the key to genre health.

[Stevens]

I've had little input over the last few posts, but have really enjoyed reading the last few posts.

[boagman]

To answer the OP: I do and I don't.

To me, there's no doubt that bullet hell shooters definitely dominate(d) the landscape for a ridiculously long time, and subjectively speaking: I don't enjoy them. It may not be that they're necessarily bad (though I could argue the points for them being so), but there's no denying that for, say, around a five year period or so, you just COULD NOT get away from them. That's all there was, and it got pretty old, especially if you're not a fan, or if you enjoy horizontals, or pacing and such...it was a very, very dry time for anything *but* bullet hell shooters.

Having said that, the scales have kind of come back a bit into congruency, and while there's certainly no shortage of them, there are other types returning as well, and yes: those other types have learned a bit and benefitted from the bullet hell shooters that came before them. It could be said that bullet hell shooters improved on, or at least added to, the genre of shooting games as a whole, and for that, I guess, I'm a bit grateful. I haven't changed my mind on them as a whole, but I can see that they have their place, too, I guess...just not with me.

There aren't all that many vertical shmups that I really go back to, but Treasure's are definitely up there, and even if I suck at them, I love them. They're terrific. Cave shooters can just kiss both sides of my white behind, and if I never saw another one of them, that'd be fine. They wouldn't be missed...I find them about as much fun to play as Reverse Russian Roulette, only without the finesse. And I don't care how many people disagree with me. It's subjective, and it's mine.

In the end, being where we are today, I wouldn't have minded entirely skipping the bullet hell era, but perhaps I'm in the minority on that. I don't mind. I like what I like because it appeals to me, not necessarily what appeals to the general population, even if "the general population" is only a fringe element of video game players who like shmups.

[pablumatic]

I do miss the pre-bullet hell era and any modern shooter I do get is usually one of the rare sequels to that older era like Dariusburst and Raiden V.

I play space shooter/shmups to play as a sole fighter against incredible odds and beat the game. Not to 1CC or get the highest score.

If all I can see on screen is a million bullets coming at my ship it becomes a maze game for me. Dancing around bullets rather than shooting down enemies.

I also loathe the loli/bimbo-fication of modern shooters and mourn how Gradius left us with Otomedius, but thats probably a different thread topic.

[Xyga]

The walls of bullets aren't really necessary, they're here to scare the player or give a sense of power more than anything.

High-speed aimed bullets are as deadly as exploding bags of marshmallow, if not more, and in the end if you think about it, it's always the tiny asshole enemy poping up on one side that'll get you with a single slow mini-bullet.

But the exploding marshmallow bags sure look pretty.

[Sumez]

Exaaactly! Bullet hell does ONE great thing that's directly related to the amount of bullets on screen: Make you feel f**king awesome (been a few years since I've posted in here, I forgot, is swearing allowed?). It's in no way proportional to the difficulty of the game, but it definitely LOOKS harder. So why is it so difficult to "mix and match"? Like I suggested in my earlier post - save the bullet hell for the moments in the game that need to be truly epic, rather than turning it up to 11 from the start! A lot of early proto-bullet hell style games do it excellently. SDOJ is just too much...

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

and in the end if you think about it, it's always the tiny asshole enemy poping up on one side that'll get you with a single slow mini-bullet.

Oh god it's true, and in my experience it's usually a tank.

[gs68]

I like bullet hell games, and I also like non-bullet-hell games. I just wish more people realized that just because a shooty doesn't have more bullets than can be counted at a glance doesn't mean it's bad. Or easy; someone once told me "hey, you play Touhou, right? Bet you can beat the final stage of Strikers 1999 with no problems."

[Despatche]

Well, if you're a hardcore Touhou player, you probably can loop Strikers 1999 without problem. A good number of the people who've looped 1999 are the Touhou people.

[davyK]

I don't miss it simply because there are plenty of older shmups around that can still be played if you have a Sega Saturn for example.

I would like to see some new ones though. Modern bullet-hell shmups are great but it would be nice to have modern alternatives.