Why Kojima fails

[Edmond Dantes]

Reason I never liked "just using my eyes" very much is that when that's all you have, it leads to a lot of pure-luck situations where you don't know your in danger until you look--the classic Mark Brothers routine where the guy cautiously peers around the corner only to see the guy he's looking out for looking straight at him.

I found the radar all-but-necessary because in my thinking, it's a visual shorthand for all the things you'd have if this were real life, but which you don't due to the limited perception of a video game. If you were really there, you'd be able to not just see, but hear accurately, smell, maybe even subtly "sense" motion from air currents or whatever. But since this is all in a virtual world, you're not availed of any of those powers. Hence, Soliton came along and gave you back the advantages you naturally would have.

True, now you can wait and memorize patterns, but that gets really tedious, really quickly, and even when I do, sometimes I can't find a way to sneak and make it work. Besides, this is a game that scores you on how fast you complete it.

Essentially, it feels like the style changed. MGS1 and 2 played (story scenes notwithstanding) like arcade games. They were quick, and very "primary" in their sensibilities. MGS3 on the other hand tried to be more like a simulation, and IMO it suffered for it. It kinda feels like the difference between Doom 1/2 and Doom 3, to be honest.

[Skykid]

To be honest, I loved MGS2--I feel its misunderstood... or no, wait, its completely understood, but gamers got butthurt that the game is basically a commentary on cash-in sequels and how fans lap them up unthinkingly.

Oh so that's what it was?

I think I've heard now heard every possible excuse for that game's failings.

I think the only decent review Stuart has ever done is Raiden DX. Dude's got some legendary rep (for mostly the wrong reasons).

That MGS4 review isn't his, it's by guest reviewer Tom Garvey. Stu did add a little prologue of his own prior to the review that I didn't bother to copy over:

"As someone who's hated the MGS series ever since an attempt to play MGS2 that ended in a joypad actually being thrown so hard at the floor (since it didn't appear to be necessary) that it bounced up and ricocheted off my TV screen (fortunately, a very sturdy old Trinitron CRT whose thick glass the pad rebounded from without causing any visible damage), me reviewing it personally seemed neither (a) fair, nor (b) something that was going to happen unless someone pointed a fucking gun at my head, and quite possibly not even then. There are things worse than death, and that includes wading through nine hours of wannabe-Z-movie cutscenes of dribbling nonsense written by an overindulged Japanese scifi nerd for the occasional brief snippet of videogame.

So instead, kindly welcome WoS' second-ever guest feature, written by someone who loves the MGS games enough to not only play through them, but to actually pay for them with their own money."

To be honest, I didn't find MGS4 as abhorrent as said reviewer. I had some fun with it, in-between laughing and occasionally crying over its eccentricities. I can understand, if you're being really critical, how you can absolutely loathe it. The review ably illustrates why Kojima narrative is such diabolical drivel, and although I quickly forgot nearly all the plot nuance, I do recall thinking how absurd and full of holes a lot of the twists and turns were.

MGS4 was very fractured and vingette styled and the cutscenes were ridiculous, but I wouldn't agree it's the worst game ever. It is a seriously amusing review though, thanks to Marc for the entertainment.

[Strider77]

This thread is far more long-winded and overwritten than a Kojima cut scene. Not to mention weak and incredibly redundant on plot. Funny how it manages to emulate what it hates so easily. It even manages to spawn sequels quicker... With absolutely no new content. But hey it's free and no one is forcing me to read it.

[Skykid]

This thread is far more long-winded and overwritten than a Kojima cut scene. Not to mention weak and incredibly redundant on plot. Funny how it manages to emulate what it hates so easily. It even manages to spawn sequels quicker... With absolutely no new content. But hey it's free and no one is forcing me to read it.

And now at three pages!

La Li Lu La Lo Ho Ho Ho!

[Ed Oscuro]

Reason I never liked "just using my eyes" very much is that when that's all you have, it leads to a lot of pure-luck situations where you don't know your in danger until you look

I am not sure I understand this. I am afraid I do, though...

I do not like radar systems in games when they lead to you relying on, and basically playing, based on just a tiny corner of the screen. It also distracts you from watching the pretty scenery the artists worked so hard on.

Additionally, in at least some of the games they're quite good about giving you audio cues. In Peace Walker, with the sound up just one notch from mute I can definitely tell everything that's going on.

I am not sure what you mean by pure luck situations here - like any FPS, using good movement and camera control routines will let you have the drop on enemies much of the time.

The camera in Peace Walker often gets into minor trouble during boss fights (and similar confrontations) but while you might lose sight of Snake, you are always aware of whether you've got the inventory screens up and keeping enemies in sight is easy (especially the gigantic bosses).

[Marc]

not sure what's going on in that woc diatribe, i don't remember any of that from the game. clearly there needs to be some serious study. i agree with most or all of the above post, though

Ridge racer didn't fit into a burnout.
Castlevania didn't really fit into a God of War
Street Fighter didn't fit into Tekken

...what?

unbounded was literally a burnout. noone was trying to "fit" anything into anything, all that happened was the actual burnout guys got together and made a successor for namco. they called it ridge racer because branding: there hadn't been a big new "ridge racer" product in a while, they were probably still kinda pissed off over 2006 (do i really need to explain the cause and effect), and most people never would have seen the difference between this and that arcade racer had it not been for some idiot who randomly decided to gather a mob and row row fight the power. you can't look at it as a ridge racer at all, but you can look at it as a burnout, so please do that.

Eh? R was a Bugbear game (Flat out devs) wasn't it?

Either way a sadly undercooked racer. Ignore the name and the somewhat bland visuals, it's actually a really good arcade racer. Better than any Burnout since 2 anyways.

[Edmond Dantes]

To be honest, I loved MGS2--I feel its misunderstood... or no, wait, its completely understood, but gamers got butthurt that the game is basically a commentary on cash-in sequels and how fans lap them up unthinkingly.

Oh so that's what it was?

I think I've heard now heard every possible excuse for that game's failings.

MGS2 has no failings, only the gaming fanbase did

Say what you will about Raiden, but he was far more likable than Fox Mulder /gentle ribbing.

[Strider77]

Who farted?

[Skykid]

Who farted?

^ What he said.

MGS2 has no failings, only the gaming fanbase did

Say what you will about Raiden, but he was far more likable than Fox Mulder /gentle ribbing.

I'd put Raiden right alongside Jar Jar Binks.

[trap15]

Say what you will about Raiden, but he was far more likable than Fox Mulder /gentle ribbing.

I'd put Raiden right alongside Jar Jar Binks.

Same. Really don't like the character.

I think I like literally every other character in the series more, even...

[Skykid]

Say what you will about Raiden, but he was far more likable than Fox Mulder /gentle ribbing.

I'd put Raiden right alongside Jar Jar Binks.

Same. Really don't like the character.

I think I like literally every other character in the series more, even...

Same.

I think the most groundbreaking, avante-garde, ahead-of-its-time aspect of MGS2 is Olga's hairy pits. I consider it the first major pro-feminist statement for Japanese gaming.

Or maybe a discriminative racial slur, not sure.

[quash]

Ever since I played through Snake Eater back in 2004, I've maintained that it's the weakest entry in the series. I remember seeing the credits roll for the first time, then thinking to myself "That's it?".

The game was just a series of wasted opportunities. Mechanically, it offered little that MGS2 didn't already do better. I'll give it due credit in the AI department, but if they didn't improve the AI to make up for the expansive outdoor areas, the game would've been even more of a breeze. They did later add a 3D camera view, which was a significant improvement.

But that's about the most I can say for it. Camo? We've already been over that. The whole hunting thing was cool I guess because it fit in thematically, but it was really just the same ol' rations from the previous games when you cut through the bull.

Then we have the bosses. With the exception of The End and The Boss, MGS3 had some of the worst boss fights I've ever played in a 3D action game (only to be topped by Peace Walker's insistence on turning the game into Monster Hunter once every few stages). I didn't even remember half of the boss fights until I watched a boss rush video awhile ago, and I've played through MGS3 at least five times. Ocelot was a sub par rehash of a sub par boss fight from MGS2, and it didn't even serve much of a purpose plot-wise; we already knew Ocelot was a bitch from the moment they introduced him. The Fear and The Pain were just dumb and way too easy, and The Sorrow was neat enough the first time I guess, but he got old fast. Volgin was another forgettable one, and the Shagohod really didn't offer the challenge the previous Metal Gear boss fights (REX and RAY) did.

All of this is symptomatic of a larger issue with MGS3: it sacrificed a lot of what made Metal Gear great for the sake of bettering the cinematic experience. Say what you will about Kojima cutscenes, but you can skip them and get back to the action in every MGS before 3. In 3, you're forced in to all sorts of exercises in time wasting, from splinting Snake's broken limbs to the entire Shagohod fight. MGS4 took this even a step further, but that's a different topic.

To my recollection, the only sequences like that in MGS1 were the room you had to escape from with no equipment, and the final sequence in the humvee (after two proper boss fights, mind you). In MGS2, all I can recall is the part where you first board Arsenal. You could, if you wanted to, skip every cutscene and still end up playing a kick ass game. Yet with MGS3, they forced everyone to go through the hand-holding segments, and there were more than a few.

MGS2 is my favorite for a lot of reasons, but if I had to choose just one, it'd be the elegance with which they created one of the first games that truly took advantage of everything 3D hardware had to offer at the time. The only thing that could've been done better from a mechanical standpoint was first person view, something that subsequent games in the series haven't really addressed.

It's been a long time since I've willingly engaged in MGS discussion, but this thread is (sadly) better than most on this particular topic, so I'm willing to take a chance on it. All I hope is that I don't end up regretting it.

[neorichieb1971]

Nah, there were a few decent bits in MGS1 that I recall. MGS1 is a better game than the rest. MGS2 was over hyped but at least I got through it. After that I gave up. I played MGS4 for 20 minutes as I felt it was just another crappy shooter game with 45gb of FMV.

[Jonathan Ingram]

With the exception of The End and The Boss, MGS3 had some of the worst boss fights I've ever played in a 3D action game (only to be topped by Peace Walker's insistence on turning the game into Monster Hunter once every few stages).

As someone who likes all of the Metal Gear games(although not in equal measure) starting from the original MSX dilogy and down to MGS4 and Peace Walker, I derive a lot of amusement from the fact that whenever there is a discussion on the series, there's always a party that incessantly heaps praise on one of the games all the while proclaiming the other(or two) as "the worst ever". Usually it's "best game ever MGS3" against "can't play this foul shit MGS2", but in your case it's reversed.

Be reasonable, folks. Less hyperbole and more objectivity would help.

[Ed Oscuro]

Peace Walker's variety is a good thing. Nothing but sneaking missions throughout would get old in a hurry.

Just finished Chapter 4, by the way. Bunch of nonsense about deterrent but it still leaves you misty eyed ~_~

I think the only decent review Stuart has ever done is Raiden DX. Dude's got some legendary rep (for mostly the wrong reasons).

That MGS4 review isn't his, it's by guest reviewer Tom Garvey. Stu did add a little prologue of his own prior to the review that I didn't bother to copy over:

"As someone who's hated the MGS series ever since an attempt to play MGS2 that ended in a joypad actually being thrown so hard at the floor (since it didn't appear to be necessary) that it bounced up and ricocheted off my TV screen (fortunately, a very sturdy old Trinitron CRT whose thick glass the pad rebounded from without causing any visible damage), me reviewing it personally seemed neither (a) fair, nor (b) something that was going to happen unless someone pointed a fucking gun at my head, and quite possibly not even then. There are things worse than death, and that includes wading through nine hours of wannabe-Z-movie cutscenes of dribbling nonsense written by an overindulged Japanese scifi nerd for the occasional brief snippet of videogame.

[/quote]
"Reviewing this game is going to be dishonest, so I'll just slag off the whole series!"

Vintage Stu.

[Ed Oscuro]

Speaking of lol-worthy Kojima moments, watching him going through the stages of denial and attempted "just trolling u" face save in regards to the appearance of Quiet is astounding:

When asked about Quiet during a interview with Famitsu, Hideo Kojima replied: "In the game, Quiet is the main heroine. Whether she is friend or foe has yet to be revealed so I had to be careful when casting her role. MGS normally has old timers and old guys (laughs). Stefanie is very skilled in action but since she never held that type of gun, we asked her do some training at home." He also told 4Gamer: "With Stefanie, we had to make sure to focus her 3D motion on capturing her facial and body language and not her voice, since Quiet does not speak. She does make small sounds like “ugh” and “ah” though."

On September 6, 2013, in response to the mixed reaction concerning Quiet's characteristics, Kojima clarified exactly what he meant when he asked lead designer Yoji Shinkawa for a "more erotic" character. Speaking through a translator, he said: "Maybe the phrase 'erotic' wasn't really [the correct word for] what I was trying to say. What I'm really trying to do is create unique characters. One of those is, of course, Quiet. She's a really unique character, I wanted to add that sexiness to her. It wasn't really supposed to be erotic, but sexy." He also said, "You're going to notice [when you play,] but there's limited dialogue with the [Metal Gear Solid 5], and for that reason we really want to show the characteristic from each character. Sexy could be for guys, weapons, vehicles, it's really that characteristic." Shinkawa also weighed in at the Q&A, saying, "From my perspective, it's not just the characters, but often I look at a weapon or a vehicle and think 'That's really sexy.' It's not just the characters, but the mechs and weapons [as well]." When asked for her thoughts on Quiet's design, Joosten stated, "Of course, I was surprised to see Quiet's outfit at first. But, you know, it fits in the Metal Gear universe, I think. I don't think I'm allowed to say a lot about this, but, well, Mr. Kojima has his reasons for deciding why Quiet [is] wearing what she's wearing. Players will just have to look forward to that."

On September 8, 2013, Kojima stated, "I know there's people concerning about 'Quiet' but don't worry. I created her character as an antithesis to the women characters appeared in the past fighting game who are excessively exposed. 'Quiet' who doesn't have a word will be teased in the story as well. But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds. The response of 'Quiet' disclosure few days ago incited by the net is exactly what 'MGSV' itself is."

Man, if there was anybody I would have expected to be able to pull off a heel to face turn, it'd be Kojima...but we'll see; we'll see.

Also all that shit about the "Mercury Eight" was just depressing and also not a little disrespectful, even for somebody who peddles in historical fan fiction. *flushes EVA's tapes*

[Edmond Dantes]

So wait... there's an MGS5?

I'm gonna hate myself for even asking, but... spoilers plz.

I'd put Raiden right alongside Jar Jar Binks.

Begs the question: Which of these characters is the most annoying?

Jar Jar
Scrappy Doo
Snarf from Thundercats
Pinkie Pie
?

Seriously interested in your answer.

(Debating whether I should instead have you rank the characters in order of annoyingness. Also I'm sure there's famous Scrappies I forgot, so feel free to add some).

[Skykid]

Begs the question: Which of these characters is the most annoying?

Jar Jar
Scrappy Doo
Snarf from Thundercats
Pinkie Pie
?

Oh Jar Jar by a country mile.

What's a Pinkie Pie, some kind of sex act?

[stryc9]

I enjoyed MG Solid when it released.

After receiving the sequel, I never bothered with the franchise again.

[Casey120]

This thread is far more long-winded and overwritten than a Kojima cut scene. Not to mention weak and incredibly redundant on plot. Funny how it manages to emulate what it hates so easily. It even manages to spawn sequels quicker... With absolutely no new content. But hey it's free and no one is forcing me to read it.

Well, it all comes down to micro gnomes influencing the writers .
I know it's a crap cop out but that's all I could come up with after 3 pages of shenanigans .

[Strider77]

It doesn't matter really in the end.

[evil_ash_xero]

Any of you sluts played Ground Zeroes?

And besides it being a glorified demo(which it is), what did you think?

I think Phantom Pain could be amazing. Normal mode was too easy, but Hard with Reflex off was just perfect.
I know people are scarred by all the cutscenes in IV, but really...after the lack of them in Peace Walker, and the lack of them in GZ....I would hope people would kind of get over it. It was true, but I guess he heard all the griping.
Not saying his stories will not be as weird as always though. And the ending of this one....ha ha...kaboom! That's all I'm saying.

[Strider77]

Yeah I enjoyed what's been tweaked and done. I'm getting my money's worth out of it by bothering to accomplish all the tasks. I think even skykid would like the changes.

[Skykid]

Well I don't know how many of you read the interview in the OP, but Kojima did say he's taken enough flak over cutscene excess that he's consciously going to cut them right down for Phantom Pain.

Hopefully he'll strike a balance more similar to the first MGS.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well I don't know how many of you read the interview in the OP, but Kojima did say he's taken enough flak over cutscene excess that he's consciously going to cut them right down for Phantom Pain.

Hopefully he'll strike a balance more similar to the first MGS.

Well, if GZ or PW anything to go by(especially GZ), the cinemas will be less than the first one.

Not to mention the codecs haven't been a problem in a while, after the (justified)complaints about them in part 2.
That's probably what irritates me the most about 2. You get TONS of cinemas, and then as soon as they're over(or you try to skip them), you get all these stupid codec calls. And you have to fast forward them, as you can't really skip them.

And yeah, I think you may actually like Phantom Pain, if the new demo thing is anything to go by. I have a friend who didn't like the first MGS, and I think he would like this new change of pace.

[Skykid]

I hope so! It would be nice to get back into bed with the series as being genuinely decent games not hampered by a vast overpopulation of its creator's ego.

MGS2 was definitely the first step in the wrong direction when it comes to all this what-the-fuck-am-I-reading/business/meme, and I'm surprised it wasn't reigned in a lot more quickly.

To be completely fair, it was bloody nonsense.

[evil_ash_xero]

To be completely fair, it was bloody nonsense.

Yeah, it was.

And I'm a pretty big fan of the series. But that one...

[trap15]

It's driving me nuts that you're calling GZ a demo so much. It's not a demo, it's a prelude, and the content will be different (though related).

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, it's not exactly a demo.

But it's not a game either. And the price tag is bonkers.
I mean, I got it to see how Phantom Pain was going to be, as I'm sure most MGS fans did.
But the price makes the whole thing pretty disgusting.

However, the deal they got in Europe with Peace Walker for free, is pretty fair.

[trap15]

What, half the price of an average game for something you'll probably enjoy more than said average game? Seems pretty fine to me.