what's your definitive version of street fighter?

[cicada88]

The opposite; banning V-ISM in Zero 3 would make it less unbalanced.

V-ISM is risky in that one hit knocks you out of the custom combo state, but the potential for damage from a single combo is pretty ridiculous.

Right, I understand that V-ism is the problem but I thought that it might be even more broken without it or something.

Meaning something like: Zero 3 with v-ism is way more unbalanced than Zero 2, but Zero 3 with v-ism is more balanced than Zero 3 without v-ism.

Or I guess it could be that Zero 2 is far more balanced that Zero 3 without v-ism

Basically, I'm trying to figure out why someone would prefer Zero 2 to Zero 3 with no v-ism.

[Ganelon]

You're thinking too much about balance. 3S certainly isn't beloved because it's balanced. Neither are the other oft-praised Street Fighter installments. A3 features "more stuff" than any other SF title, which attracts casual fans. However, the game's system, with various component differences compared to A2 (not just VCs), didn't have lasting appeal with SF competitors. For example, SF never had a guard meter or used 2P for throws again.

It's rumored that the fifth new character in USFIV is going to be Decapre, a Cammy clone created by Udon Comics.

I had to look that up, I really hope a shitty fanfiction tier Cammy/Vega mashup isn't what we're going to end up with.

No comment on who the 5th character might be but I'll just point out that Capcom itself created Decapre and the rest of the Dolls for SFZ3.

[drauch]

Glad there isn't much love for IV. I thought it was received a little better, but I'm glad I'm wrong. I despise everything about it.

I'm a fan of Third Strike, but that's about all I can say. I'll play it when it's there, but I don't like the cast. Love the Alpha series, but the only one I really take serious is Super Turbo. I've got a World Warrior board in my closet, and while there's still some love, there isn't any room.

[null1024]

For example, SF never had a guard meter or used 2P for throws again.

I actually love that about SFA3, but I'm not exactly the biggest SF person.

[dannnnn]

Glad there isn't much love for IV. I thought it was received a little better, but I'm glad I'm wrong. I despise everything about it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but considering it's one of the most popular competitive fighting games around I'd say it's been received rather well

For me the definitive version is ST, timeless game, I expect it'll still have a competitive scene in another twenty years time. It's tied with 3S as my personal favourite.

[quash]

Super Turbo really is the best, though I have to give CVS2 an honorable mention.

Third Strike I've historically had a love/hate with. It broke new ground in some regards, it's just that a lot of what it introduced wasn't very well executed. Basically, you have to look past the glaring imperfections and appreciate the interesting things it did to really "get" the game. What you think of it at that point depends on what you value in a fighting game. I try my best to respect what it did well, but at the same time, there were some truly egregious errors made that make it hard for me to want to play it.

Never cared much for Alphas. I feel like anything you could want to play the Alphas for, CVS2 does better.

SFIV is... eh. At this point it's hardly even Street Fighter anymore. I don't have much fun watching it because a lot of high level play devolves in to exploiting the engine's quirks, and playing it has always been a chore for me. How many revisions later and the command interpreter still hasn't improved?

That's one aspect in which CVS2 excels above all Street Fighter games; it may be strict in how it reads inputs, but it is incredibly consistent.

[drauch]

Glad there isn't much love for IV. I thought it was received a little better, but I'm glad I'm wrong. I despise everything about it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but considering it's one of the most popular competitive fighting games around I'd say it's been received rather well

Oh, I left out the portion about gamers with taste

[To Far Away Times]

Third Strike may not only be the best Street Fighter, but may be the best fighting game in general.

[ACSeraph]

I don't really get the hate for SFIV, I think it's just the cool thing to hate. It's not my favorite in the series, but its definitely a solid fighter.

On topic though my personal favorite would be HDR, because I admire all the work Sirlin put into balancing it and I think a lot of the calls he made there were the right ones. Unfortunately it never took off, but luckily I can be satisfied with Super Turbo too.

I really liked Alpha 2 back in the day, but for some reason these days I'm not feeling it. Alpha 3 never really gets old no matter how broke it is. I respect Third Strike, but it doesn't have any characters that I really love playing in it unfortunately. The mechanics are great, but there's just no one for me to play.

[drauch]

"Cool to hate" is so much bullshit. Can't talk bad about a popular series! Metal Gear Solid, Zelda, Final Fantasy VII: games you are forced to like if you consider yourself a gamer, no matter what. It's a forum full of retronauts who would sell their children for PCBs. Of course people are going to hate a bulky, ugly, 3D fighter that's slow as molasses and too silly for its own good. Like I said, I've never loved Third Strike too much, and IV to me seems like Third Strike on roids. Trust me, I was excited for it to come out, bought it day one, played in local tournaments and gave it an honest chance, but I just couldn't get past the aforementioned ugly aesthetics and the mechanics.

[Pretas]

On the other hand, the SFEX series is sorely underrated, and it introduced equivalents of Focus Attacks and Ultras to the franchise. I think SFEX2+'s Excel was a much more successful take on custom combo mechanics than V-ISM. It's too bad that Arika's never allowed Capcom to use their characters again since, or at least Capcom hasn't had any interest in them. Vulcano Rosso and Skullomania seem to beg for the SFIV treatment.

I think the biggest reason SFEX never took off is because it released at a time when a lot of 2D fighter fans were particularly hostile to 3D. EX3 had a fair bit of success, but only due to it being a PS2 launch title.

[Jonst]

I agree that the ex series,especially the first one was massively underrated.and it probably was released at a bad time.i really enjoyed it even though I was a massive 2d fight fan.
I'm not trying to be cool by disliking SFIV,I'm genuinely disappointed in it,like others here,I bought every version on day one and put a lot of hours in.it just dosn't feel cool to play like any of the previous games.when the novelty passed,it really passed! These days I can barely play through a credit before I get bored stupid.sad really.

[Squire Grooktook]

I like Super Turbo, but I haven't played enough of the Alpha games.

[ACSeraph]

It just seems a little extreme to me to say that 4 ruined the series. I'm not saying you have to like it or anything, just that it really isn't the utter garbage people sometimes make it out to be.

Also EX 1 and 2 aren't exactly good looking games, and they have a similar feel to SF4 if you ask me. I agree that they aren't as terrible as they are made out to be, but I don't know enough about them really. They could be totally broken for competitive play.

[trap15]

Metal Gear Solid

Movie: The Game. (I actually like these, but I think they're fairly mediocre as actual games)

Zelda

Fairly overrated.

Final Fantasy VII

So vastly overrated that it's almost literally unbelievable.

[Jonst]

It just seems a little extreme to me to say that 4 ruined the series. I'm not saying you have to like it or anything, just that it really isn't the utter garbage people sometimes make it out to be.

Also EX 1 and 2 aren't exactly good looking games, and they have a similar feel to SF4 if you ask me. I agree that they aren't as terrible as they are made out to be, but I don't know enough about them really. They could be totally broken for competitive play.

Nah,it just ruined it for me personally,it's a good fighting game...it's just that I'd rather play caladrius instead!

[ACSeraph]

...it's just that I'd rather play caladrius instead!

I can't really argue with that lol

[Squire Grooktook]

Zelda

Fairly overrated.

Is Majora's Mask still considered under-rated though? That's my favorite game in the franchise hands down.

That and Oracle of Ages with the mind blowing last few dungeon designs.

[Hagane]

I don't really get the hate for SFIV, I think it's just the cool thing to hate. It's not my favorite in the series, but its definitely a solid fighter.

It's a terribly designed game that dumbed down Street Fighter and dragged the entire genre down with it. It's sluggish (characters walk very slowly, damage is low), jump arcs are terrible, execution was simplified for the sake of attracting casuals but ended up having a lot of ugly side effects (like the wide window for reversals dumbing defense down or the myriad of option selects created by the extremely lax controls), awful throws, wide autocorrect windows, Ultras, dumbed down ground game with lots of bad normals, horribly boring characters with much less fun stuff to do than in older games... I could go on and on. Plus it's an eyesore and sounds like crap, I can't believe so many people believe it to be the new standard in fighting game visuals.

Basically, it's a step back in every sense. It purposedly dumbs things down for the sake of "accessibility" and gives nothing extra to make up for those simplifications. The huge damage it did to the genre (it started a trend of overly simplification that other developers copied) makes it the worst Street Fighter ever in my eyes. It basically made me quit the genre. All the hate it gets is well deserved.

On topic, to me Super Turbo is the definitive Street Fighter. In it the trademark SF style is at its highest point. Great speed, lots of strategical variety, unforgiving. Third Strike looks good, but is rather silly as a game. It misses the point of 2D fighters (their strongest aspect being that they use the whole screen instead of just focusing on close combat) while it lacks the depth of close range oriented fighters (3D games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter). Alpha 3 is rather good, even if V-ISM can get a bit too silly at times. If customs were shorter (with similar damage) and with a few system tweaks it would rank up there with ST.

By the way, EX2+ is great. If only Arika had done SFIV...

[Jonst]

^The definitive slamming of SFIV!! It is kinda true though...

[Ex_Mosquito]

I don't really get the hate for SFIV, I think it's just the cool thing to hate. It's not my favorite in the series, but its definitely a solid fighter.

It's a terribly designed game that dumbed down Street Fighter and dragged the entire genre down with it. It's sluggish (characters walk very slowly, damage is low), jump arcs are terrible, execution was simplified for the sake of attracting casuals but ended up having a lot of ugly side effects (like the wide window for reversals dumbing defense down or the myriad of option selects created by the extremely lax controls), awful throws, wide autocorrect windows, Ultras, dumbed down ground game with lots of bad normals, horribly boring characters with much less fun stuff to do than in older games... I could go on and on. Plus it's an eyesore and sounds like crap, I can't believe so many people believe it to be the new standard in fighting game visuals.

Basically, it's a step back in every sense. It purposedly dumbs things down for the sake of "accessibility" and gives nothing extra to make up for those simplifications. The huge damage it did to the genre (it started a trend of overly simplification that other developers copied) makes it the worst Street Fighter ever in my eyes. It basically made me quit the genre. All the hate it gets is well deserved.

On topic, to me Super Turbo is the definitive Street Fighter. In it the trademark SF style is at its highest point. Great speed, lots of strategical variety, unforgiving. Third Strike looks good, but is rather silly as a game. It misses the point of 2D fighters (their strongest aspect being that they use the whole screen instead of just focusing on close combat) while it lacks the depth of close range oriented fighters (3D games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter). Alpha 3 is rather good, even if V-ISM can get a bit too silly at times. If customs were shorter (with similar damage) and with a few system tweaks it would rank up there with ST.

By the way, EX2+ is great. If only Arika had done SFIV...

+1 Couldn't have said it better myself! In the UK of late ST has had a bit of a resurgence. There are now monthly ST meets in a new London arcade (The HOG) on Japanese VS city cabs, and various tournaments with ST appearing in the roster. There's an ST day at The HOG this Sunday actually, 10 hours of ST comp! http://www.grandmasterchallenge.com/?p=321 The game just refuses to die, and for good reason. Out of interest do you play on GGPO at all? If so do you fancy a few games? The competition is pretty high, mostly dominated by the French mind you :/

[ACSeraph]

BURN

I won't really argue with most of your points because I myself agree it was a step back. But I'm not convinced that makes it a bad game per se. I appreciate that it brought the genre back from the dead even if it had to make certain sacrifices along the way. And before you go and say that all the games that followed it tried to emulate it to the detriment of the genre, just don't. KoFXIII for example is totally non beginner friendly and extremely fast. Is it easier on the execution than say, 2k2? Absolutely. But lets be honest here, execution in KoF was always nothing but an artificial barrier.

Obviously I would only play ST/HDR if there was a big enough scene for it here, but in my part of Japan SF4 is the only SF that gets played. However it gets the job done; it's an intelligent game that requires a lot of strategy (far more than something like BlazBlue) so even if it is far from the definitive SF I really see no problem with it. Making the execution easier doesn't really hurt the mind games imo. It's better than the greater majority of fighters that hit the arcades here in Japan.

As for graphics, it doesn't really matter. It's just a matter of taste. I'm pretty neutral on it personally; arc sys is still the king of fighting game graphics to me.

My only real problem with SF4 is that it's not a timeless game like Capcom is making it out to be with the endless revisions, and I'm bored with it after playing it for like 5 years. I want something new and faster from Capcom (Not SFXT).

Short Version: Totally agree that SF4 is weak-ish as a Street Fighter game, however it's strong as a fighting game.

[Neathyr]

I agree with pretty much everything Hagane said, not to mention the whole "Ultra animation is/can be used to run the clock out" thing.
But I'd also like to point out the removal of Survival Mode in SSFIV. Yeah, the genre in general is first and foremost aimed for multiplayer competition, but some people still like to play single-player sometimes, and some game modes are just fun to mess around. More options to the player. Why they decided to remove a significant part of the game is unacceptable, especially when you take into account that SSFIV was supposed to be an improvement compared to its previous release. One could say this mode has become a staple of the genre.
It was kinda pathetic to see so many people somewhat agreeing with Capcom's decision to split the online community by not allowing the vanilla SFIV players go online against SSFIV players. And it might happen again with USFIV PC.

@ACSeraph: I don't buy this "SFIV brought back fighting games". Between CvS2 and SFIV, we had KOF2002, Virtua Fighter 4 & 5, Dead or Alive 3/2U/4, Soul Calibur 2 & 3, Guilty Gear XX, Arcana Heart, Bloody Roar 3, Tekken 4 & 5, and there's still room left for me to say "et-cetera". The genre was doing fine in general: Capcom was the one on hiatus.
I mean, even if 3D fighters got most of the spotlight, there's a good chance CvS2 and KOF2002 could last you the entire generation on the 2D front, at least.
lol for the "BURN".

[quash]

And before you go and say that all the games that followed it tried to emulate it to the detriment of the genre, just don't. KoFXIII for example is totally non beginner friendly and extremely fast. Is it easier on the execution than say, 2k2? Absolutely. But lets be honest here, execution in KoF was always nothing but an artificial barrier.

SFIV's command interpreter is a complete mess; it's a typical Capcom command interpreter (read: strict) with various sloppy shortcuts thrown in. There's a way to do shortcuts and directional input buffers right, and KOF has done it for years. If anything, KOF is the one fighting game that has consistently tried to lower its execution barrier. XIII does this almost to a fault, because now you're liable to drop HD combos because even though you did the correct input, it reads it as a shortcut for something else depending on how you buffer it.

Obviously I would only play ST/HDR if there was a big enough scene for it here, but in my part of Japan SF4 is the only SF that gets played. However it gets the job done; it's an intelligent game that requires a lot of strategy (far more than something like BlazBlue) so even if it is far from the definitive SF I really see no problem with it. Making the execution easier doesn't really hurt the mind games imo. It's better than the greater majority of fighters that hit the arcades here in Japan.

Yes, I sure do love the strategy behind Akuma/Viper/Oni/whothefuckever vortex. It really makes me appreciate the plethora of defensive options at my disposal, as well.

[Squire Grooktook]

@ACSeraph: I don't buy this "SFIV brought back fighting games". Between CvS2 and SFIV, we had KOF2002, Virtua Fighter 4 & 5, Dead or Alive 3/2U/4, Soul Calibur 2 & 3, Guilty Gear XX, Arcana Heart, Bloody Roar 3, Tekken 4 & 5, and there's still room left for me to say "et-cetera". The genre was doing fine in general: Capcom was the one on hiatus.
I mean, even if 3D fighters got most of the spotlight, there's a good chance CvS2 and KOF2002 could last you the entire generation on the 2D front, at least.
lol for the "BURN".

Every time someone claims to be trying to/to have "saved" a genre, I admit I become quite dubious.

[ACSeraph]

I didn't really say it "saved" the genre. Re-popularized would be a better term, and it's hard to argue that it didn't do that. It went from niche to not quite so niche overnight, and the new influx of players was good for the community overall. I'm sure a lot of elitists would complain about all the "casuals" SF4 brought in, but I can't really agree.

Also as far as the vortex stuff is concerned, Capcom is working to fix it. Every Street Fighter game has its share of bullshit, so it's not really fair to only call out SF4 on that front.

Like I said before, I think Hagane's criticism of 4 is pretty accurate, especially relative to the better games in the series, but I just can't agree that SF4 is a "bad game".

[Squire Grooktook]

Like I said before, I think Hagane's criticism of 4 is pretty accurate, especially relative to the better games in the series, but I just can't agree that SF4 is a "bad game".

Yeah, I kinda agree. It's solid I guess. Not a really memorable or great fighter, but it's not so terrible as to make really good players fights any less interesting. I'd say it's decent.

[Cagar]

It's a terribly designed game

Hahhahahaha Is this a joke?

that dumbed down Street Fighter and dragged the entire genre down with it

...except that it's the biggest tournament fighting game right now, and back when it was released, it resurrected the whole genre

It's sluggish

It is not.

jump arcs are terrible

Clarify?

execution was simplified for the sake of attracting casuals but ended up having a lot of ugly side effects .... wide autocorrect windows ...

Execution was simplified to make the game more mind-oriented (which the game has mainly been about) and not based on your hands or controller, which only pisses people off. Sure, it also attracts casuals, and how is this a bad thing, mr. Elitist?

awful throws, Ultras

Again, clarify please

dumbed down ground game with lots of bad normals, horribly boring characters with much less fun stuff to do than in older games... I could go on and on.

Yeeeaahh right. You should actually clarify your whole post, as it almost makes zero sense.

Basically, it's a step back in every sense. It purposedly dumbs things down

Now you realized it...

things down for the sake of "accessibility" and gives nothing extra to make up for those simplifications.

...oh no you didn't. Gives nothing extra to make up for making the game more solid? Yeah that sounds completely logical

The huge damage it did to the genre... ...All the hate it gets is well deserved.

You mean the 'huge damage' of continuously making the game more and more popular each year and tournament? "The hate" it gets only happens outside of the actual fighting game playerbase, like here, at the shmups forum. I love the parrying system of SFIII more than focus system too, but I'm not completely blind about how solid and perfect package SFIV is.
It is THE fighting game of all time and a prime example of great japanese design, period

BUT UNBLOCKABLES AND AKUMA OP AND BLABLALBALBALLABLA..
They're getting fixed with USFIV (the game is still being patched after 5 years!), shut the fuck up.

It's COOL to hate SFIV, some ugly 3D... "I played fighting games back when that game didn't exist!!!! "

[Skykid]

I'll never love SFIV enough to place it alongside my most beloved FG's, but I also don't have any reason to hate it with a passion. It's good tournament stock and has enough depth - regardless of how much one dislikes the system - to be enjoyed at a competitive level. I knew little to nothing about SFIV until I was force fed it for several months, observed and played against top tier players, and came to understand how completely different it is to any previous SF game.

There are still things about it I don't like, but sometimes it takes experts to reveal a FG's qualities, even if I know I don't aspire to that level of play.

that dumbed down Street Fighter and dragged the entire genre down with it

I really don't get this. I doubt we'd even have a third of the new FG's around in the last five years if SFIV hadn't revived interest in the genre, most of which have been very well received by dedicated FG communities.

[ACSeraph]

It's sluggish

It is not.

I've defended 4 quite a bit here, but I've got to say it's definitely sluggish. Enough so that I think that's one of the most legitimate criticisms against the game.