NES Recommendations (very specific)

[Sinful]

And nothing that was done better, and looks better on SNES or Genesis(like Castlevania for instance).

Castlevania hasn't been done better since the 3rd NES title (like 1990). The Genesis one came closest, just needs one or more levels, I guess? Otherwise it has the best gameplay of the classic vania games (not too simple & not to advanced to break the game. Just right. Between both characters you can whip in every direction. See the genius of it all?). The first SNES one is too broken cause they haven't balanced the game for the whip in every direction thingy... whip, thus a broken mess (not sure if it would of been castlevania enough if they had done it). Still fun enough cause it's a vania game, I guess (just not in one sitting). The second SNES game is good/better (don't listen to the haters). Even better then the so much praised PC-Engine one (which is too easy and not propely balanced at all either. For real... But oh, the graphics and sound! Right?). Out of the Metroidvania ones, the first GBA one is easily the best (Circle of the moon), but if you don't care about challenge/game balance or hate harder games, then yeah, you'll be fine with the others.



Ever since I really got into Konami a lot more (thanks to Gradius series), I've really been diecovering gold left and right. Other then that, just look up what the notible game companies made during that era (Capcom, Taito, Natsume, etc... oh, and, er, *cough* LJN. Must'nt forget the rainbow of gold ).

Oh, and hey! Check out this site; http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/system.htm#nes (I've set it to NES games) Lots of notable games on there to keep you busy & ge lost in for quite some time! And you can set it by genre, game company, etc. etc.

[BIL]

The second SNES game is good/better (don't listen to the haters). Even better then the so much praised PC-Engine one (which is too easy and not propely balanced at all either. For real... But oh, the graphics and sound! Right?).

I generally agree with you about CV3, Bloodlines and CV4's standings in the series (and also, CV4 is pretty ugly overall, though it sounds sublime). But Dracula XX is a bad game even completely ignoring the far superior PCE Dracula it's a shitty hack of. I love the series and it's the one traditional console release I don't own, and likely never will.

Also, Rondo is actually harder to clear on a single life, due to longer stages with more risk of death by attrition. Once you adjust to XX's horribly sluggish controls and lack of hit recovery, the only notable challenge is the clock tower. Tough stage with a tense boss duel. Other than that, XX's real challenge is simply tolerating its exasperatingly CV Adventure-like walking speed. I have a theory that it's a glitch they either didn't bother to fix, or were too sloppy to catch. When Richter is struggling through sludge, he doesn't actually slow down. Quality!

[evil_ash_xero]

Still working on some of these, and trying some others out.


Me and Bucky 'O Hare are having a bit of a like/hate relationship. I actually deleted the ROM out of frustration, but then re-downloaded it. It looks really good for a NES game, has tight control, and has some really good music too. Thing I can't stand are all the instant deaths. They seem to be everywhere. That death theme is the one that sticks in my head the most, since I have heard it more times than most of the tracks in the game. If this didn't have all those check points, I think it would be one of the most frustrating games ever. I'm gonna see if I can get better at it, to where I can enjoy it. It's just so....unforgiving. It reminds me of why I could never get into Mega Man 9, but worse. But I think it's a better game in ways. Ah hell, who knows.

I beat Little Samson, and I think it's a pretty darn good game. It's unbalanced a bit though. Where the stages are kind of easy, but then they give you some challenging bosses. It's polished though, and I can see why it's sought after. I was pleased to find out there are some other songs in the game, towards the end. I don't remember any of them, but at least they were there. I also liked the design of the later stages, with all the skulls. Creepy.

QUESTION: What kind of settings do you guys use on your emulators? I have noticed a lot of screenshots of the games, with no scanlines, or filtering. So, they look like dog shit. Then, some people use those god awful filters where they make everything look like it was melted.
It seems like a lot of people here like to go the scanline/no filter route. I use Bilinear filtering, and then put some scanlines to it. I know that blurs the image, but the no filter look does NOT look like a CRT image. Scanlines aren't enough. I can walk into my other room, pop on my Wii, and see that on the computer it just looks too pixel-y without filtering. With filtering, it looks more blurry than on a CRT, but I'd rather have that than the other option.

Oh, and what palette do you guys use? I find that AspiringSquirrel's palette looks the best. I don't know how close it looks to a real NES' palette, but it looks nice.

Here's an example of my end result. Like I said, a little blurry, but I like it better than the ultra-sharp look.

[hermit crab]

No filtering. No scanlines. But the monitor can't be too big, lets say 14" if you're a meter away, 20" if two. And the image needs to be forced into 4:3 if the screen has another aspect ratio.

"Pixely" is how it's supposed to look. Although sometimes I wonder about that, I suppose some of the pixel dithering methods might look like colors instead of checkerboard patterns when viewed on crap old TV's over a composite signal because of the blurring/mixing. Doing so was a way to add more colors to the picture than the hardware supported... And emulators/RGB then show kinda like the "color coding" rather than the actual color? But some bilinear filter blur isn't going to make it look like that, or good in any way. Pixely looks good. What are people's thoughts on this?

Anyway I've got some kind of yearning to play Rocketeer. More of a Mega Man type game except easier and kinda crappy gfx so not really for this thread. But a great game anyway imo.

[evil_ash_xero]

No filtering. No scanlines. But the monitor can't be too big, lets say 14" if you're a meter away, 20" if two. And the image needs to be forced into 4:3 if the screen has another aspect ratio.

"Pixely" is how it's supposed to look.

Nah. It looks more pixely than it does than my pic posted. But on a CRT, on an original system(or on a Wii, running on an emulator), there is a HUGE difference. The image that people have gotten used to on emulators, with the no scanlines or no filters is quite far away from an actual CRT look. It's bizarre looking to me.

I still got my tubes hooked up, with about 8 or 9 systems hooked up to it(through RGB), so I'm reminded quite often of how it should look.

That being said, if anyone here who has an RGB modded NES(or just an NES in general) can chime in on how close the colors above posted are to an actual system's, that'd be swell.

[Obiwanshinobi]

My thoughts - even genuine 240p looks better with RGB colour. MSX and NES games on PSX or Saturn via SCART on a CRT look better than ever before.
My PC monitor (CRT) won't display real 240p (each line will be doubled at best), but 640x480 (again, talking CRT here) with scanlines is the way to go (no filtering).
I doubt any scanlines look as good on LCDs (one of reasons I stock up on CRTs).

[evil_ash_xero]

My thoughts - even genuine 240p looks better with RGB colour. MSX and NES games on PSX or Saturn via SCART on a CRT look better than ever before.
My PC monitor (CRT) won't display real 240p (each line will be doubled at best), but 640x480 (again, talking CRT here) with scanlines is the way to go (no filtering).
I doubt any scanlines look as good on LCDs (one of reasons I stock up on CRTs).

You're right. Nothing looks quite like a CRT. I stock up on them also.

[hermit crab]

I rarely play anything with emulators (except MAME on a CRT) but when I do I use no scaling (or 2x scaling or similar multiple that doesn't fuck it up), and play in a window.

Old systems I play connected with composite or RGB to an old LCD (Mirai from around 2004-2005, strangely better than new ones for this purpose). No scanliner. Does not look considerably different than on my Commodore 1084-S CRT monitor (currently mainly used for Amiga).

[soprano1]

evil_ash_xero: My Google-fu is weak, where can i find the palette you used?

[evil_ash_xero]

evil_ash_xero: My Google-fu is weak, where can i find the palette you used?

Actually, I had a hard time finding it myself.

I had to download another program and pull them out of it.

Anyway, I put a whole pack for you on my MediaFire. It's only 9kb. The one I am using is the first one.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1ob61 ... o92/np.zip

[soprano1]

evil_ash_xero: My Google-fu is weak, where can i find the palette you used?

Actually, I had a hard time finding it myself.

I had to download another program and pull them out of it.

Anyway, I put a whole pack for you on my MediaFire. It's only 9kb. The one I am using is the first one.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1ob61 ... o92/np.zip

Thanks!

[Sinful]

and also, CV4 is pretty ugly overall, though it sounds sublime

lol, I was gonna mention that too, but my post was pretty long enough. I know when I brought it up during my last Castlevania series binge on the Castlevania Dungeon forum, I got blasted with responses that I was crazy for thinking so. Followed by an eventual topic lock, lol by a hurt fanboy mod, of course. But yeah, I don't get why this game is so much praised for it's graphics, but at least those not under it's strong retro fanboy powers see the truth. It's music though, very awesome (especially Simon's Theme). Love listening to all vania tunes from time to time (got all the Konami Perfect Selections + others downloaded).

One the topic of Castlevania X VS XX. Well, I went pretty in-depth with this on the Castlevania Dungeon early in the year or so (lots of pages). Out of touch with these games for now to comment much on it. But next time I play them I'll go in fresh & open minded and re-evaluate things again (it's very important to keep open minded). ... One thing is for sure, I was hoping the PSP remake that I own would of balanced things further & for the better, but sadly, it's for the worse. Every game that Metroidvanoia director touches, seems to lead to more unbalanced and/or too easy games. Just look at what he did to Otomedius X. Still, being a vania fan, I'm very glad it was made and it exists and love it for it's differences (better the the exact same thing, why I so much love Konami Arcade ports). I generally love retro remakes (so wish they re-did the other two SNES Mega Man X games too). LONG LIVE RETRO!

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think people post upscaled pictures to make them discernible in high resolutions.
Nothing wrong with pixels.




I don't miss unmodded NES or C64 8-bit look. I like my pixels sharp. Same with my GB(C) games - I happily play these on my GBA SP where the pixels look sharper, yet the screen is still useful in broad daylight.

[Hagane]

How is XX more balanced than Rondo? XX axes are dumb (high damage, hits twice) and make the game extremely easy, I don't know about anything as unbalanced in Rondo (besides Maria, an extra joke character). That aside, Rondo destroys XX in every single way: level design, physics, controls, presentation... XX is not terrible, but still definitely a shadow of the game it's based on.

[Despatche]

I played a GI Joe game that I was very impressed with - can't remember which one of the two it was though. Maybe they're both good? idk

Both indeed. They're fairly similar, the one with the map is a sequel. Very fun, one of these days I'd like to do those games some justice.

...Oh for fuck's sake:

But Dracula XX is a bad game even completely ignoring the far superior PCE Dracula it's a shitty hack of. I love the series and it's the one traditional console release I don't own, and likely never will.

BIL, I think you're one of the greatest people in the forum, and I respect nearly everything you say. And let me go ahead and make it clear that I adore Rondo and see it as one of the best games with the names "Akumajou Dracula" or "Castlevania" attached to it. But I cannot respect what you have written here. I am given the impression that you've never actually played X or XX once.

The game isn't anywhere near ugly, the music sound has actually been slightly improved (though they removed tracks since they removed stage concepts), this supposed control problem is completely non-existent, and most of the removed features were fluff (not that fluff is inherently bad, it's just that removing it doesn't really change much) or stupid shit like Maria (kinda sad when one can truly say that an optional character is a flaw with the game, especially when most of the reason is because of something completely outside of the game). It is not a shadow of anything, it's not in any way lesser. Nearly all changes were improvements. The only gripes you could physically have about the game are less raw content and how stupid the bandwagon against it is.

louisg's post right under that one with the fucking The Hyperstone Heist bullshit (all it takes is a mention) and your later post with the textbook "i've given up on this subject so let's just lie about" pattern just fucking do it. All this shit... it's pretty much the same logic behind no scanlines/filters somehow looking like dogshit. It's like these people are so far from reality that you can't even perceive them.

So um... G.I. Joe. Gimmick? Whatever. I don't even fucking know how the hell you answer such terrible standards except by avoiding them entirely. I'm done, I'm staying the fuck out of this thread, you guys clearly need that.

[Ed Oscuro]

Castlevania IV looks great for the time period and I love the gritty, coherent look of its world. But yeah, it's not as pretty as some later things. Still, I'll take that kind of clunky-looking characterization and animation over the ridiculously springy stretch-and-bounce animation of a Darkstalkers game, at least for a Dracula title.

Dracula XX / Drac X SNES, like Adventure, really is a game that needs to be considered separate from its obvious inspirations. But I won't say much more than this - it's definitely got a different feel than Rondo and it's not controversial to say that not all the changes help it. The movement speed certainly is lower than in Rondo, I am sure.

Despatche is right to point out that it's substantially reworked. Many areas have totally new graphics and the stages feel more like a classic Castlevania to me - there's a lot of the kinds of "let's do something crazy" jokes in the original on PC-Engine that started getting out of control in the GBA and especially the DS titles. Nothing bad, and I wouldn't say I prefer the caves and that bone snake boss fight thing to the awesome Pirate Ship. Edit: Hagane's comments seem to capture the essence of the argument against XX pretty well. I need to get away from Crazy Iga's Funhouse and look at those again soon.

Konami's GI Joe is awesome but that's far away from the NES games. I forget who did them...Taxan and Capcom I think.

Agreed also about all this talk about filtering being kind of silly. Unfiltered, scaled pixels looks nice enough, and when I play a game on a real CRT it makes me appreciate that more. It's not the kind of thing I'd like to spend more processing time (= introduce lag) to fix with shaders and the like. I actually like the look of the native toaster NES and A/V FC output perfectly well, which isn't the case for some other systems (Neo Geo and N64 are good candidates for RGB, S-Video, or go home).

[BIL]

I am given the impression that you've never actually played X or XX once.

BZZZT. One-lifed both on all routes, as I like to with my sidescrollers. XX sucks and is the one traditional console Dracula to fall below the bar set by the first game, having nothing to offer. Believe me, I tried. It wasn't cool internet credz at stake, but time, space and money, and XX's not worth any of them.

SNIP SNIP this supposed control problem is completely non-existent SNIP SNIP SNIP

Haha, no. I went to the trouble of picking up a loose XX cart to verify what I'd hoped was some horrible emulation/display glitch, before selling it on. Same result. Just like you're too 2D-inept to handle the Black Fly, you've failed to notice XX Richter is in the final stages of full-blown syphilis and is relying on knee braces and methamphetamine abuse to even stand, let alone walk. Those of us who master our games cannot fail to notice. The botched damage recovery cements the shitty, rickety XX Feel, some scrub's wanking approximation of how he was told Dracula is meant to control.

A similar ill befell the background design team, which is why everything is all smudged and there's sprite garbage around the ravens. But I don't care about that nor Maria or the soundtrack - I'm perplexed that you even mentioned them. It's not MEAT SLUG 4 on the SNKP MVS where there's a decent bare-bones iteration underneath all the ugly pastiche. XX is fundamentally trash.

"Oh man it'd sure be tough to battle that red axe knight while dodging those bats and spike traps without any subweapons, now that's real oldschool Dracula right there" <- GET A PLAYTESTER

"i've given up on this subject so let's just lie about" pattern just fucking do it.

Preemptively escaping the thread was a shrewd move Patchy-kun. As foolhardy as you were to challenge me so ill-prepared, there's no shame in fleeing a hopelessly superior force.

[Sinful]

First, on-topic; the original Metroid is actually better the the Zero remake, and possiby even the SNES one? (I really don't know, as I really need to play the SNES more + finish it at least once) So yeah, it must be played by everyone at least once. True masterpiece... not sure about replay, though?

I recall trying to play it after Zero Mission since it was a bonus game in that game. But it was so hard to get into the more primitive NES game at that time particular time after playing the brand new GBA one. Everytime I tried I couldn't make it past the 5 min mark. But, one day I finally made it past that mark, and it finally clicked. "Wow, what's this feeling? Hey, I remember this feeling! This is what true gaming is! Oh wow, I haven't felt this gaming purity in ages! Feels like just when I was a young kid playing the NES in it's prime!"

HoThat aside, Rondo destroys XX in every single way: level design, physics, controls, presentation...

When ever I see people comparing level design of these two games, it almost always is about the graphics.

Despatche is right to point out that it's substantially reworked. Many areas have totally new graphics and the stages feel more like a classic Castlevania to me

Yes, this point I want to highlight. X is where the Castlevania series takes a massive step toward the IGA Metroidvania style (almost identical). The classic style is where works, the new style is where everything starts falling apart (except the non-IGA made GBA Circle of the Moon).

One-lifed both on all routes, as I like to with my sidescrollers. XX sucks and is the one traditional console Dracula to emphatically fall below the bar set by the first game, having nothing to offer. Believe me, I tried. It wasn't cool internet credz at stake, but time, space and money, and XX's not worth any of them.

This man speaks the truth. I've been heavily analizing gameplay design & balance for quite some time to the point where it's really opened my eyes and can't believe how blind most people are in their wishes on how to improve games/sequals if they had it their way. ie. Kurt Kalata of HG101 thinks Graidus V would of been better it the aimable lazer ship's lazer would of been controllable via right analog stick?! lolol. The internet is full of these bogus request on how to "improve" games.

[BIL]

X is where the Castlevania series takes a massive step toward the IGA Metroidvania style (almost identical). The classic style is where works, the new style is where everything starts falling apart (except the non-IGA made GBA Circle of the Moon).

Rondo isn't only a better nonlinear game than XX, it's also a better traditional Dracula. It's every bit as precise and punishing of mistakes, it has more and better levels and bosses with which to express this, and it manages to do so without resorting to leaden controls or physics. The notion of XX being classic Dracula purified of tradition-diluting fluff is a total sham. Rondo has fluff and tradition. It's Nocturne that has heaping, cushiony masses of the former and virtually none of the latter.

(edit: and is great for what it is! Magical Vacation Dracula starring Adrian-kun and Maria-chan will never leave my library)

BTW, anyone thinking of casting "bandwagoning" aspersions: get a real argument. I'd hate to deconstruct that wagon and cram its rear axle so far up your e-ass you'd be the envy of Nocturne scarecrow cosplayers across the globe. This is war, survival is your responsibility. 凸(｀⌒´メ)凸

[BrianC]

Konami's GI Joe is awesome but that's far away from the NES games. I forget who did them...Taxan and Capcom I think.

Taxan and Kid did both NES games, but Capcom published the second game because Taxan's US game division closed (or something along those lines). It's also the reason that Kickmaster was published by Taito instead of Taxan.

[Ed Oscuro]

There definitely is something different about Rondo. Is it a good game? Yes. Is it different from previous games' feel? Yeah...but that's awesome too!

I think that in many ways Dracula XX is still a better platformer than many other platformers, just because it adheres (if sloppily) to the classic formula. It's just sloppy in comparison to many other Dracula titles.

We are really having two different emphases in the discussion here - one is a bit more tilted towards aesthetics and the other is more about gameplay.

I don't think Dracula XX is bad enough that it's unenjoyable (at least for me) and I appreciate the variety - not until the PSP port would there be a game with the Rondo sprites that even keeps the pretense of playing in the classic format. I never felt particularly bothered that Dracula XX isn't a faithful port of the original game, because we can't have nice things (with any regularity, at least), although it is interesting to consider how a serious attempt at porting the CD-ROM^2 game would've looked. Of course I realize the question has been framed in terms of whether it was worthwhile, but my feeling is that if you take it on its own terms it's playable, even if it has shortcomings compared to other games in the series. It has backflips and the ability to deal damage behind you - that alone is more than you can say for most platformers in the era. You haven't truly lived until you've only used backflips and walked left to get across the bridge.

The original CD-ROM game is pretty lovable about how it goes off the rails from the formula - Skeleton Ape is almost prefiguring "real" parodies of game characters (it's Donkey Kong, u c) and many of the playful elements don't distract as much from stage design as they do in an Eeguhvaniah. It would have been nice to see more progression in that direction. I never think that we are set for classic game types, but if I had to choose I'd say go with different types of games. To Average Gamer Joe, the similarities in pre-PC Engine Dracula titles would've felt like stagnation and "the same game," because many people appreciate variety more than subtle variations on a great theme (and that's not a criticism of Average Gamer Joe; everybody likes new things).

Perhaps it helps to put things in perspective to remember that the "original style" of CVs ran from roughly 1986 to 1994, or eight years, while the Metroidvania games have gone on over a decade (depending on whether you date its start from 1997 or 2001, and its end from either 2008 or 2010, it's easily as long as the classic series, and possibly nearly double the longevity of the classic series), and the Igarashi-directed 3D games (in all their variations) were around roughly as long too (I don't know these games at all so I can't comment on them, except to question whether Lords of Shadow really is a great departure from Iga's take on the 3D formula, or the N64 games for that matter).

In short - this is Konami, they couldn't keep Slash and Opus 13's names straight. But I admit I can't, either.

BTW, anyone thinking of casting "bandwagoning" aspersions: get a real argument. I'd hate to deconstruct that wagon and cram its rear axle so far up your e-ass you'd be the envy of Nocturne scarecrow cosplayers across the globe. This is war, survival is your responsibility. 凸(｀⌒´メ)凸

Oh yes, Castlevania in 3D definitely needs a stun & neck-snap combo, and less playing as Dracula or Dracula's Successor or Dracula's Best Bud or whatever the hell. Dracula's Kid gets a pass though.

[BIL]

Who could ever hate Dracula-kun anyway, he costarred in the best traditional game and headlined the only great Metroid one. o_o I suppose you could argue he's been slumming it ever since though. Priorities all wrong.

[Hagane]

Only metroidvania I would consider great is OOE. If it had a bit less filler and more relevant platforming (more use of the Magnes glyph for example, a la Training Area) it would be nearly perfect. The jRPG stuff almost doesn't bother in its streamlined levels, unlike the messy worlds of SOTN and company where even normal play ends overleveling you if you don't actively avoid enemies.

[BIL]

Damn it, I wanted to edit that post to "real game" and "other game" and link to Akumajou Special and SFC Gokujou Parodius.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's promising to hear (about OOE). I haven't touched that one yet.

Moving even from Dawn of Sorrow to Portrait of Ruin was quite a shock initially, but some of the presentation issues tightened up a bit latter. Of course, neither game is making many concessions at all towards traditional play. They can be challenging and fun to play in combat, but generally only at boss battles. Meanwhile, all the other traditional elements of a good game design have gone completely ignored, especially in terms of the very very strong incentive to spend a lot of time running into and out of rooms to attack the same spawns repeatedly. If OoE got rid of this lamentable device then it is great indeed.

There definitely are things about the previous style games I greatly enjoy, but it is very sad that Iga didn't have the forethought to try and strip out some of the core elements while making the platforming and combat relevant again.

[Hagane]

You can grind in OOE if you want to, but it's not mandatory as you can deal good damage normally and the levels are rather linear, so you don't have to constantly re-fight respawned enemies. There's no boring spell / soul / whatever grinding either as you get glyphs quickly. Difficulty is definitely not arcade level but it's decent enough, much better than in any other metroidvania at least. Also, there's a special mode that caps your level at 1, but I haven't tried that one yet.

I still consider Koumajou Densetsu II to be the best "Castlevania" since Rondo, though.

[Sinful]

I'm debating if I should start a topic here where I make another atempt to explain why Castlevania XX is better designed & balanced then X, just like I did on the Catlevania Dungeon awhile back? ... Hmm...

[soprano1]

Which version of Battletoads & Double Dragon is the best: Original NES version or Mega Drive version?
I only played the NES version, Rare did some cool stuff back in '93.

[BIL]

I'm debating if I should start a topic here where I make another atempt to explain why Castlevania XX is better designed & balanced then X, just like I did on the Catlevania Dungeon awhile back? ... Hmm...

Dracula thread ;3

EDIT: holy fuck, never mind. Just had a read of the CVD thread.

I don't think XX is a worse game than only Rondo, I think it's worse than every other traditional console Dracula too. And I couldn't care less about it not bearing a closer resemblance to the PCE game. It's not a port, despite the stupid US title (there's no "Castlevania XX" - only the Japanese title "Akumajou Dracula XX" is honest about it being a half-assed pseudosequel cash-in). It's a poor traditional Dracula entirely on its own failings.

Its supposed trump card of "challenge" is a joke, as well. It's no harder overall than the other traditional games. Unlike them, it simply controls like shit and has juggle-happy damage recovery, demanding absolute attention for even the most menial of actions (and the vast majority of this game's action is menial indeed). Combined with the horrible walking speed it's blandly exhausting, like a mile-long carny "don't touch the wire" game. Castlevania III Loop 2 and X68k/Chronicles Original are The Harder Draculas and both control perfectly. Amazingly enough the challenge there is in the level designs, what a concept!

I originally put something here about it being a bad Dracula but only a middling game otherwise, but I think even that is a bit too much goodwill.

[evil_ash_xero]

SOTN
Rondo
IV

There you go. I said it!