Lag on the XRGB-Mini

[Fudoh]

Sword of Mana is hardly a benchmark for smooth scrolling. Try Gradius or running in Metroid. It's a 1-frame hiccup about every 1.5 seconds.

And where - by the way - is the mod to fix this ? Can't be too hard to change the clock in the player module to match the output refresh on the Cube hardware.

[ZellSF]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

Well if you want the option to play both on a portable GBA and on a larger screen and you're against both flash cartridges and emulation then I guess it's your only choice.

Personally I think buying a 30$ flash cartridge and getting a much better experience (less input lag, smoother scrolling) is preferable to using 100$ on cables and complicating your setup further (one more power outlet needed, one more component input needed, more space needed).

Oh, I guess that's not actually mentioned yet, which is an odd omission in a topic about input lag: the Gameboy Player noticeably lags. More so than PC emulators.


I find the Gamecube has better image quality stronger, but really though, 100$ for very slightly better image quality and much less convenience (the Wii GC backup loaders are getting really good)?

[Smashbro29]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

Well if you want the option to play both on a portable GBA and on a larger screen and you're against both flash cartridges and emulation then I guess it's your only choice.

Personally I think buying a 30$ flash cartridge and getting a much better experience (less input lag, smoother scrolling) is preferable to using 100$ on cables and complicating your setup further (one more power outlet needed, one more component input needed, more space needed).

Oh, I guess that's not actually mentioned yet, which is an odd omission in a topic about input lag: the Gameboy Player noticeably lags. More so than PC emulators.


I find the Gamecube has better image quality stronger, but really though, 100$ for very slightly better image quality and much less convenience (the Wii GC backup loaders are getting really good)?

The gameboy player lags? I honestly hadn't done much testing on it, I was just stoked to get one going with component cables. I really hope you're wrong.

[ZellSF]

I'm 100% definitely not wrong, barring some weird problem with my setup (Japanese GBA player, composite out to CRT) then there is input lag there.

You could hope that there's an input lag bug in the earliest GBA player versions, that the Gamecube uses a long time to interlace an image or that my standard definition CRT TV has a lot more input lag in 480i than 240p.

All very unlikely.

[Smashbro29]

I'm 100% definitely not wrong, barring some weird problem with my setup (Japanese GBA player, composite out to CRT) then there is input lag there.

You could hope that there's an input lag bug in the earliest GBA player versions, that the Gamecube uses a long time to interlace an image or that my standard definition CRT TV has a lot more input lag in 480i than 240p.

All very unlikely.

I hope there's some way to fix it, do we know what causes it? I really like the picture quality.

[Fudoh]

The GBA player lags a little big compared to a real GBA hardware, probably because of the video processing they allow (change of background borders, menu overlay, zoom option). It's not dramatic though. The composite processing on the other end of the chain causes much more processing delay. 480p component from the GB player to a fast TV is pretty awesome and feels really tight.

[EmperorZelos]

The GBA player lags a little big compared to a real GBA hardware, probably because of the video processing they allow (change of background borders, menu overlay, zoom option). It's not dramatic though. The composite processing on the other end of the chain causes much more processing delay. 480p component from the GB player to a fast TV is pretty awesome and feels really tight.

How much of a lag on the GBA alone?

[Thomago]

And where - by the way - is the mod to fix this ? Can't be too hard to change the clock in the player module to match the output refresh on the Cube hardware.

This would be so great!!!

[HydrogLox]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

Not relevant to the discussion at hand - but I guess the horse has left the barn ...

Plus I'm still trying to address the 'crispness' factor - GC games running on Wii don't look any better than a direct output from the GC, at least with my setup.

But you are not saying that the Wii's rendering looks any worse either. I don't know what you are expecting:
Wikipedia: Hollywood (graphics chip)

The Hollywood GPU is reportedly based on the Nintendo GameCube's "Flipper" GPU and is clocked 50% higher at 243 MHz

Nothing about that statement would suggest to me anything would look any better - barring a major screw-up (making it worse) it should be about the same.

As was pointed put before for maximum "crispness" and minimal input lag you would have to transcode the GC/Wii component signal to VGA into a VGA CRT monitor - and in most cases that kind setup will only support 480p (i.e. no 480i) material.

I think you may need to mess with the scaler settings as even with the 480p bug my GC especially, looks incredibly sharp.

For the sake of discussion - is the display you are using natively 720p or 1080p?

I'll also pick up the Neoya to play with the lag.

To prevent any disappointment I'm reiterating that the Neoya will put out 480i over HDMI if that is what is fed to it - and some TVs DO NOT support 480i over HDMI (I've heard rumors of some TVs not even supporting 480p). In that case the XRGB-mini would still be needed for de-interlacing.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup.

I already had a number of GBA titles and any extended sessions on the GBA SP lead to hand and eye fatigue - though I have to admit "constant stuttering" would be pretty fatiguing too ...

[broken harbour]

My display is natively 1080p.

Perhaps the problem is that the Wii looks fuzzy no matter what. If you have a GC running component, and put it next to the same GC game played on a Wii using component, the Wii has some weird fuzzy filtering going on compared to the GC.

[HydrogLox]

the Wii has some weird fuzzy filtering going on compared to the GC.

At least on PS2BC PS3s you can turn the "smoothing" off ... ... but without a change in resolution deliberate Wii-based smoothing makes no sense unless some silly focus group decided for the rest of the world that a "smoothed" picture ended up looking "better".

[blizzz]

There's no difference between GCN games on the original console and Wii. If you see a difference it's because your device doesn't like the component output of the Wii.

[ZellSF]

There's no difference between GCN games on the original console and Wii. If you see a difference it's because your device doesn't like the component output of the Wii.

Most devices don't like the component output of the Wii...

You would almost have to specifically shop for something that does.

[Smashbro29]

No, I would recommend using a component matrix switch with two outputs, one output routed into the Mini for 240p and 480i and the other routed directly into the TV (Sony W series), a component to HDMI converter (most other TVs) or a secondary scaler especially for 480p material.

EDIT: but to clarify 100% - - the Mini is by no means bad with 480p material. 1080p out, V_Scaler 5, H_Scaler 10-11 and Sharpess 1 looks pretty good. Bypassing the Mini is something you should only do if you want to avoid that extra 1.5 frames of lag on 480p sources or if you know that your TV will handle 480p through HDMI better than the Mini does through component.

Question: Picture mode looks a bit too saturated, which mode would you recommend?

[Fudoh]

In general: the upper row (standard, game1/2, meister) have an increased low pass filter, which will cost you some picture details. The lower row is better. I really only switch between natural and picture. On very rare occasions I use standard, for example when I have source with jail bars I want to get rid of.

[Smashbro29]

Thanks, natural looks much more natural.

[IrishNinja]

man, team CRT can go fly a kite; i loved my roommate's trinotron but i'm not going back to a small set again, unless it's for tate/light gun stuff

If you have component cables for the Cube, why not just get a universal component to HDMI converter instead ? Those are about $30 and work fine on both systems as long as the games support 480p.

would this bring down some of the GC's lag over component? i haven't noticed it much with the games i tend to play, but it's good to know, and god knows i don't use the HDMI ports on the framemeister for much else anyway

It is very easy to rule out a receiver though, so definitely do that.

wait, the receiver can increase lag? i'd accounted for my plasma & XRGB but not that

[12345]

I've been thinking for a while about how to correctly and most accurately hook component sources to the mini or my TV set and I stumbled upon this post:

Iirc both, neither the signal nor the processing mode changes anything about the lag - at least for the analogue inputs. On my last test processed HDMI was a little faster (I think 17 compared to 24ms) and passthrough HDMI was basically lag free.

So since I think the mini gives me more possiblities on adjusting the picture, can you guys name me a converter which I could use to simply transcode component to HDMI?
I've already read a lot about those neoya adapters but as far as I can tell they don't seem to be very accurate.

And most importantly: Before I buy any of those adapters, can anybody tell me if the mini's output is also only limited to YCBCR when the component source is fed through HDMI? I'd be happy to so somebody who owns such an adapter trying out if the can get the Framemeister to output RGB. That and the higher lag are the only downsides with the D-terminal connection to me.

[HydrogLox]

I've been thinking for a while about how to correctly and most accurately hook component sources to the mini or my TV.

You could try a component-to-RGB transcoder (the 9A65 even supports RGBS output) if you don't like the XRGB-mini's component input.

I've already read a lot about those neoya adapters but as far as I can tell they don't seem to be very accurate.

Sources?

Can anybody tell me if the mini's output is also only limited to YCBCR when the component source is fed through HDMI?.

Firmware 1.08 Menu:
"OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > RGB/AUTO"

RGB always forces HDMI(RGB), while AUTO is the recommended setting. Also: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html

With the current firmware there's a bug with processing a 480p component signal from a PS2. There's a chroma-shift in the red color channel, which causes all reds to shift a few pixels to the left (compared to the luma channel) - this blurs the picture a bit. The pictures shows the video preset to the left and the game preset to the right. You can also see the chroma-shift. Depending on your TV set, the chroma-shift can be fixed by setting the Mini to RGB output using the color space option.

Both (RGB/AUTO) work for my Dell U2312HM:
Classic Xbox -> component -> (D IN) XRGB-mini -> HDMI_DVI-D cable -> U2312HM.
The XRGB-mini is set to "OUTPUT_MODE > HDMI" (i.e. not DVI)
"SPECIAL > FULL_STATUS" reports "INPUT: COLOR: YCBCR ANALOG" and "OUTPUT: COLOR RGB 8BIT".
Given that the U2312HM only has a DVI-D (not HDMI) input I believe that only "OUTPUT: COLOR RGB" is supported.

Alternate setup 1:
Classic Xbox -> component -> (D IN) XRGB-mini -> Sharp LC-26D43U.

• "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > AUTO" => "OUTPUT: COLOR YCBCR 8BIT"
• "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > RGB" => "OUTPUT: COLOR RGB 8BIT"

Alternate setup 2:
PS3(BD) -> HDMI -> (HDMI IN 1) XRGB-mini -> Sharp LC-26D43U.
Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr Super-White (HDMI) ON

• "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > AUTO" => "INPUT: COLOR: YCBCR 8BIT" & "OUTPUT: COLOR YCBCR 8BIT"
• "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > RGB" => "INPUT: COLOR: YCBCR 8BIT" & "OUTPUT: COLOR RGB 8BIT"

[Josh128]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

I realize this is an old post, but Ive never noticed frame stutter on my Game Boy Player for GC. I dont use it much, granted, but I dont remember this. Might this be a PAL only issue (Im NTSC)?

[Fudoh]

Might this be a PAL only issue (Im NTSC)?

no, I use a full NTSC setup. The system uses two hardware clocks (one in the actual GBA hardware in the player) and the other for the cube's video hardware and unfortuntely they don't run in sync.

[12345]

You could try a component-to-RGB transcoder (the 9A65 even supports RGBS output) if you don't like the XRGB-mini's component input.

Could I also build a passive sync combiner since the linked item seems to be out of stock? Is it really worth it?

I've already read a lot about those neoya adapters but as far as I can tell they don't seem to be very accurate.

Sources?

http://www.thethrillness.com/2014/02/ne ... -hdmi.html
This and similar (customer) reviews. In addition, if you search the boards here for Wii2HDMI, you will find some people claiming that the HDMI-audio was distorted via the adapter, colors were incorrect and some 480i games wouldn't work.

Both (RGB/AUTO) work for my Dell U2312HM:
....

Thanks this made things a lot clearer. I think I got it sorted now.

[Sixfortyfive]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

I realize this is an old post, but Ive never noticed frame stutter on my Game Boy Player for GC. I dont use it much, granted, but I dont remember this. Might this be a PAL only issue (Im NTSC)?

The Game Boy Player is junk.

The GBA/GBC is one of few instances where I'll take an emulator over the official hardware if I want to play it on a big screen.

[HydrogLox]

Could I also build a passive sync combiner since the linked item seems to be out of stock? Is it really worth it?

Lots of equipment that is used in retro-gaming hasn't been manufactured in years. So in a lot of cases it is a matter of monitoring ebay and strike when a good opportunity comes along. I managed to get a 9A65 uncontested at the original bid just this January (using it right now for Classic Xbox -> component -> 9A65 -> RGB/VGA -> U2312HM; don't have the cabling right now to put it in front of the XRGB-mini). Other transcoders are available but so far I had good experiences with both the Audio Authority 9A60 and 9A65. However it is important that the device is just a transcoder rather than some kind of "converter" which may add some undesirable processing.

The 9A65 is not a format converter. It passes the horizontal and vertical synchronization timings and pixel content to the outputs without modification

Right now I don't know whether putting the 9A65 in front of the XRGB-mini is "worth it". However it is clear that the XRGB-mini's strength is it's 15kHz RGB processing and there seem to be some (perhaps minor) problems with the YCbCr processing. I'm starting to suspect that:

• YCbCr has its own strategy which is entirely separate from the RGB processing (which has been under much closer scrutiny). "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > AUTO"
• YCbCr-to-RGB transcoding may be implemented in the firmware rather than by dedicated hardware (I could be wrong though). "OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > RGB"

So putting a lagfree YCbCr-to-RGB transcoder in front of the XRGB-mini seems like a reasonable idea.

http://www.thethrillness.com/2014/02/ne ... -hdmi.html

As far as I'm concerned that is not a negative review - it is just being realistic for a $30 "piece of plastic".

if you search the boards here for Wii2HDMI

Keep in mind that there are lots of different devices (and implementations) that are being peddled under the "Wii2HDMI" moniker, not just the Neoya one. Also the Neoya has an analog audio out that may be more suitable for some situations.

some 480i games wouldn't work

.
480i will only work on TV sets that support 480i over HDMI - and many do not. I haven't had a problem on a Sony Bravia KDL-50EX645. A deinterlacer would increase cost and lag ...

And just yesterday I threw Xyanide(480i) onto the Classic Xbox and the XRGB-mini freaked out - unplayable even though the XRGB-Mini has no issues with other 480i content on the console. That's reality, there is rarely a perfect solution. Personally I haven't had any regrets since I swapped out the component cable for the Neoya WII2HDMI on the Sony Bravia KDL-50EX645 (and I'm not setting up the XRGB-mini for Wii 480p content).

[12345]

Wow thanks for the useful information!

480i will only work on TV sets that support 480i over HDMI - and many do not. I haven't had a problem on a Sony Bravia KDL-50EX645. A deinterlacer would increase cost and lag ...

Well at least on my set I have the feeling that the mini rather reduces lag from a component source and accepts 240p in comparsion to if it was hooked directly to my TV. I'm just wondering, is there a difference in how the mini handles the signal when you hook your Wii/Xbox via HDMI to your mini instead of the D-terminal connection? I'd be interested if the color space was also recognized as YcBCR and if yes if it makes any difference on the commonly known oversaturated mode.

[HydrogLox]

Well at least on my set I have the feeling that the mini rather reduces lag from a component source in comparsion to if it was hooked directly to my TV.

That is not uncommon as lots of LCD sets will put a lot of processing on that input as they expect a 480i/480p DVD player to be hooked up there. The rule of thumb is that typically the VGA input is the fastest analog input (i.e. with the least processing) on an LCD set - that is, if there is a VGA input.

I'm just wondering, is there a difference in how the mini handles the signal when you hook your Wii/Xbox via HDMI to your mini instead of the D-terminal connection? I'd be interested if the color space was also recognized as YcBCR and if yes if it makes any difference on the commonly known oversaturated mode.

Not sure when I'll have time to try that - but I'm almost willing to bet that both a Neoya Wii2HDMI and Xbox 360 (no HDMI on Classic Xbox) will always output HDMI(RGB):

• On the PS3 I had to enable Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr Super-White (HDMI) and play a Blu-ray to get HDMI(YCbCr) - games will always use HDMI(RGB).
• HDMI(YCbCr) support is optional on HDMI devices - making HDMI(RGB) the lowest common denominator.

I'm left with the impression that HDMI(YCbCr) is strictly a (higher-end) media thing that video games currently do not bother with ... and I suspect the XRGB-mini only does it because the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2 "does it for free" because it was developed for media players.

[Fudoh]

but I'm almost willing to bet that both a Neoya Wii2HDMI and Xbox 360 (no HDMI on Classic Xbox) will always output HDMI(RGB):

on the 360 you can choose between RGB (full and limited range) and YCbCr on your own.

On many of the component to HDMI devices (including the Neoya) you run the risk of getting limited range RGB which is considerably less often supported compared to to full range RGB and even YCbCr.

[FBX]

I'm really not detecting any lag when I play my SNES or Genesis on my setup with the mini. I've got it outputting at 1080p and my Sony display has every processing feature turned off (noise reduction, motion flow, etc.), and the characters seem to respond instantly when I press the jump button. If there is any lag, it's gotta be something like a tenth of a second at best.

[RGB32E]

If there is any lag, it's gotta be something like a tenth of a second at best.

100ms lag is pretty bad actually...

Mini is about 20 to 24ms. Sony TVs in game/graphics mode are anywhere from 17ms (W95x) to 44ms (HX9xx) total lag depending upon the model (Leo Bodnar tested). Leo Bodnar is a conservative measure though as it's total display lag that includes pixel response.

[HydrogLox]

I'd be interested if the color space was also recognized as YcBCR.

• Xbox 360 Systems Settings > Console Settings > Display > (Reference Levels, Standard), (HDMI Color Space,RGB) XRGB-mini: "COLOR: RGB 8BIT"
• Xbox 360 Systems Settings > Console Settings > Display > (Reference Levels, Expanded), (HDMI Color Space,RGB) XRGB-mini: "COLOR: RGB 8BIT"
• Xbox 360 Systems Settings > Console Settings > Display > (HDMI Color Space,YCbCr709) XRGB-mini: "COLOR: YCBCR 8BIT ITU709"
• Xbox 360 Systems Settings > Console Settings > Display > (HDMI Color Space,YCbCr601) XRGB-mini: "COLOR: YCBCR 8BIT ITU601"
• Neoya Wii2HDMI XRGB-mini: "COLOR: RGB 8BIT"

if it makes any difference on the commonly known oversaturated mode.

Are you referring to the 480p + scanline issue? http://pms.hazard-city.de/mini480p.jpg ... haven't really spent any time reproducing this as I typically do not use scanlines on the XRGB-mini.

Apart from that, in my personal opinion, the Xbox 360 YCbCr modes seem to yield bolder colours - almost more "cartoonish" - but that is just my personal opinion, not a scientific observation.
I would not expect YCbCr to fix anything on the XRGB-mini - recall the PS2 480p component problem that was avoided by forcing RGB? Also the XRGB-mini seems primarily geared towards retro-platforms that do not support YCbCr - so it would be understandable if Micomsoft would focus less effort on YCbCr support and testing.

you run the risk of getting limited range RGB which is considerably less often supported compared to to full range RGB.

There you go confusing me again - is it that limited on full doesn't work at all or simply that "the colors are off" (limited black (16) is not quite black on full; limited white (235) is not quite white on full)? If it still "kind of works" the choice of "limited" makes sense (for "cheap" electronics) to have greater compatibility across most displays even if it means that the picture isn't quite perfect on full RGB displays.

EDIT: Yikes. So apparently Limited (16-235) is the broadcast standard - Full expands the broadcast (16-235) over the (0-255) range to match the legacy (PC) RGB range. So "Full" isn't necessarily better than "Limited".