Raiden legacy PC

[Ed Oscuro]

What you do inevitably have is MAME setting a benchmark tho, people expect an official port to be at least as good as MAME, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

Yes, I get all of that, but what I see slipping in is "well, this hard-to-emulate game (that not even MAME has gotten 100% right after a long period of work) isn't better in some port that uses MAME as reference...therefore, it's close enough that I feel like I can state that it's probably stolen" when in reality there is a huge gap between the intent to do a proper release, using MAME as a reference only (because it's the best thing available in many cases; somebody said something about getting the Raiden 2 source code but that assumes it still exists, and Seibu seems to be a company with a somewhat better track record of that, too), and just compiling MAME without meeting the minimum of effort, like the sellers of "A3 Retro Reproduction Video Game..." flyers and "Articles about Raiden Fighters" copy TAFA and Wikibooks (or something) for their eBay sales. At the same time there is a gap between intentions, the end product may look essentially the same, for the reason given above - it's hard to go beyond the state of MAME for a release like this, particularly if they don't know what they're doing with implementing it for a particular system. I think that the quality of the game should be enough here; if somebody has proof that the company is doing wrong, they can obviously deal with it, but otherwise they shouldn't be accused of that.

[DocHauser]

I can't get the TATE option working. I've set my desktop resolution to Portrait and started the game - the menus show up as a strip across the middle of the screen (although I think the loading screens were actually fullscreen). Not a big problem, but when the actual game starts, the display is squished into one part of the screen. I think I've tried every combination in the options menu, but it hasn't solved the problem so far. Maybe it only works on certain monitors? (I'm not sure why this would be the case, but if anyone gets it working properly, I'd like to know.)

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Loosely related: A SXX2E single board version of Raiden Fighters was found the other day. I'm not sure if RF1 had a single-board version listed until now, but interesting to see there's versions still floating around the place.

So that makes having all three of the Raiden Fighters PCB series released as a single board variant along with the usual seperate SP1 mobo + SP1 carts of said RF series as well (which are more common these days in the arcade PCB world & not to mention, has better audio output with stereo output sound also if so desired). Fascinating. Not to mention some of the single layer SXX2E PCBs are known to have the ace Yamaha audio chip on-board whereas on others, has an inferior audio chip installed which gives rise to the crappy looping BGMs during a serious gaming session (to cut down expenses during production runs with cheaper sourced components -- Seibu was known to use cheaper components for their later Raiden II - New Version & Raiden DX - New Version PCB releases back in the day). It's a given. It's best to stick with the original Raiden II & Raiden DX PCBs as Seibu didn't skimp with said parts during PCB production runs...so be it.

The single layer board of Raiden Fighters Jet 2000 variant out there in the wilds is none other than the Chinese region indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[DocHauser]

What kind of leaderboard support do they have? The Android version that I have doesn't even save your high scores.

No leaderboards, no high score table. After a game, it'll tell you if you got the high score, but apart from that there's no way to actually look at your high scores.

[Enemy]

is it that my monitor is syncing at 60hz and these games are a weird framerate?

I think the arcade versions were 54hz? If you look at the background on the PS1 ports you'll see a bit of stuttering.

FFS !!! will have to try and see if I can change the sync of my monitor to 54hz but I dont think I can with my setup, why run the menus at 60hz and the games in their original framerate bloody idiots !!! makes the games totally unplayable for me!

edit :- just looked and the hardware info that runs the Fighters series and it refreshes at 57.59hz. I will give it a try later dropping my monitor framerate and see if that sorts things out

[kathy]

is it that my monitor is syncing at 60hz and these games are a weird framerate?

I think the arcade versions were 54hz? If you look at the background on the PS1 ports you'll see a bit of stuttering.

FFS !!! will have to try and see if I can change the sync of my monitor to 54hz but I dont think I can with my setup, why run the menus at 60hz and the games in their original framerate bloody idiots !!! makes the games totally unplayable for me!

edit :- just looked and the hardware info that runs the Fighters series and it refreshes at 57.59hz. I will give it a try later dropping my monitor framerate and see if that sorts things out

I am technologically challenged but is this why the 360 port blows?? There is so much tearing and innacuracy and when you move your ship on the 360 i actually regret buying it. The pcb is one of the most solid feeling shooters i have ever played. Mame hasn't done it justice either unfortunately.

[Fudoh]

Raiden 1 runs at 59.6Hz, RF, RF2 and RFJ run at 54.0Hz - always have, always will.

On the 360 your output is locked to 59.94Hz, so you have various options on how the internal refresh rate is converted. If you did get tearing or had other problems you simple chose the wrong option. MAME can output the games in their original refresh rate, but you need a monitor which can support it and no LCD can.

[kathy]

thanks Fudoh

I have only played it on the xbox default settings so far. I would wonder why the defaults haven't been optimized as the majority of 360 customers will simply load the disc and press play? (as i have done). I don't like to sound negative but honestly RFA on the 360 (in it's default mode at least) is the biggest steaming pile of horse shit of a port i have ever played when compared to the original hardware..

[Enemy]

Raiden 1 runs at 59.6Hz, RF, RF2 and RFJ run at 54.0Hz - always have, always will.

On the 360 your output is locked to 59.94Hz, so you have various options on how the internal refresh rate is converted. If you did get tearing or had other problems you simple chose the wrong option. MAME can output the games in their original refresh rate, but you need a monitor which can support it and no LCD can.

back to seeing if I can drop my monitor to 54.0hz then, thanks for the clarification Fuddoh.

edit: just seen that you wrote tht LCD's dont support 54hz, what a damn waste of time and money ... thanks dotemu, thanks for nothing!

[Enemy]

Sent them an email about the stuttering issue, although in my experience it wont do any good. why the hell did they not allow an option to force the frame rate to match your monitors refresh rate. What the hell are these people playing at, didn't anyone notice this problem when play testing the damn thing !

[BPzeBanshee]

So that makes having all three of the Raiden Fighters PCB series released as a single board variant along with the usual seperate SP1 mobo + SP1 carts of said RF series as well (which are more common these days in the arcade PCB world & not to mention, has better audio output with stereo output sound also if so desired). Fascinating. Not to mention some of the single layer SXX2E PCBs are known to have the ace Yamaha audio chip on-board whereas on others, has an inferior audio chip installed which gives rise to the crappy looping BGMs during a serious gaming session (to cut down expenses during production runs with cheaper sourced components -- Seibu was known to use cheaper components for their later Raiden II - New Version & Raiden DX - New Version PCB releases back in the day). It's a given. It's best to stick with the original Raiden II & Raiden DX PCBs as Seibu didn't skimp with said parts during PCB production runs...so be it.

The single layer board of Raiden Fighters Jet 2000 variant out there in the wilds is none other than the Chinese region indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

I'm checking the seibuspi.c documentation on the subject matter here, and I'm no expert, but unless I'm mistaken in what I'm reading this newfound RF board is the only one listed as an SXX2E. I believe the boards with the lower-quality audio that you speak of are the SYS386 versions with the OKI chips.

Raiden Fighters 2 has the 2.1 US Single Board which is an SXX2F and uses the Yamaha chip, and JET has two single board SXX2G versions which still has a Yamaha chip but has the AMD CPU used in the SYS386I board (Raiden Fighters 2 - 2000). One of those single-board variants got found recently and apparently had a few differences bt So we do indeed have all three series released as single board variants, without the poor OKI BGMs.

[Fudoh]

I would wonder why the defaults haven't been optimized as the majority of 360 customers will simply load the disc and press play?

because there is no perfect solution. One's choppy scrolling (54Hz converted to 60Hz with possible tearing). One's frame blending (smoother playback but this can cause blurrier graphics) and the last one's running the game 10% faster. MAME can do a) and c) or output natively to a CRT.

I don't like to sound negative but honestly RFA on the 360 (in it's default mode at least) is the biggest steaming pile of horse shit of a port i have ever played when compared to the original hardware..

I think RFA is hands down the best arcade conversion there is on the 360. Remember that there have been four updates for the game which fixed many of the minor bugs and upgraded the graphics options by a mile.

[J_Taishu]

So uh, nobody has figured out how to fix this game's TATE yet?

[Drachenherz]

Looks like there is hope:

The guys over at the french forum.shmup.com are in talks with DotEmu (one communication-gal, I think Jessica is her name, is responding in the thread), and the community has some very good input what problems of this compilation should be adressed. (see here, although it's in french: http://forum.shmup.com/viewtopic.php?p=411103#p411103 )

Jessica promised that they look into it and that they try to fix what they can. (Well, that one is open for interpretation)

I try to translate what our french fellow shmuppers propose to get fixed:

- Being able to enter ones name in the score table at the end of a game, and...
- being able to save the scoretable, especially the highscore, because it's to measure ones progress in the game, which is essential in a STG where score is such an important aspect of the game
- being able to set the original number of lifes (3)
- If "autofire" is set to ON, the shout should be automatic when you push the button, not the other way round
- offer a true TATE mode, like promised
- unlock the secret ships as default (or give the option, like in the Xbox 360 compilation)
- solve the input problems in the select menu (see here)
- give more graphic options in order to find the original graphical rendering (scanlines)
- Idealy, complete access to all dipswitch settings of the original versions, so it is possible to setup the game as one wishes

Please bear with me, I translated this from french to english, althoug my native tongue would be german.

[danbo]

hope they fix that stuff. i forked out for it out of curiosity and i'm really salty. this is a super bad port currently!!

[Danny]

Having owned the Andriod collection of these games for awhile I can say I am glad they finally got around to releasing these on PC.

Oh and DotEmu tend to be pretty good about patching their retro collections with fan feedback as the Andriod version has had multiple patches since release with new features and control options and such.

same (but maybe to a lesser extent) could be said for their PC Irem collection too.

I am just happy as a person who lives in the UK to finally be able to play these games legaly!

[The Coop]

same (but maybe to a lesser extent) could be said for their PC Irem collection too.

I'm afraid you're quite wrong on this one. They made one patch for that game, and it didn't address half the things people were complaining about with the compilation. Then they promised a second patch that would fix more issues, add a new version of a game everyone wanted, and address a weird problem people were having with the games running like shit (badly stuttering graphics and audio) at times... yet the patch never came, and was abandoned. I contacted them after it had been many months, and they flat out said the patch wasn't happening anymore. So yeah, DOTEMU has things to prove in my book, as the last game I bought from them was never truly fixed. But I guess that's what happens when a company only tries once and then walks off.

[Danny]

same (but maybe to a lesser extent) could be said for their PC Irem collection too.

I'm afraid you're quite wrong on this one. They made one patch for that game, and it didn't address half the things people were complaining about with the compilation. Then they promised a second patch that would fix more issues, add a new version of a game everyone wanted, and address a weird problem people were having with the games running like shit (badly stuttering graphics and audio) at times... yet the patch never came, and was abandoned. I contacted them after it had been many months, and they flat out said the patch wasn't happening anymore. So yeah, DOTEMU has things to prove in my book, as the last game I bought from them was never truly fixed. But I guess that's what happens when a company only tries once and then walks off.

Yeah I guess that is true. I have mostly been following/using their Raiden Legacy Android app at this point and that gets updated quite a bit. Failing in that you can literary copy and paste the roms from the app itself and throw them in to MAME like you could with the IREM collection meaning you can use what ever feature filled MAME variant tickles your fancy.

[The Coop]

same (but maybe to a lesser extent) could be said for their PC Irem collection too.

I'm afraid you're quite wrong on this one. They made one patch for that game, and it didn't address half the things people were complaining about with the compilation. Then they promised a second patch that would fix more issues, add a new version of a game everyone wanted, and address a weird problem people were having with the games running like shit (badly stuttering graphics and audio) at times... yet the patch never came, and was abandoned. I contacted them after it had been many months, and they flat out said the patch wasn't happening anymore. So yeah, DOTEMU has things to prove in my book, as the last game I bought from them was never truly fixed. But I guess that's what happens when a company only tries once and then walks off.

Yeah I guess that is true. I have mostly been following/using their Raiden Legacy Android app at this point and that gets updated quite a bit. Failing in that you can literary copy and paste the roms from the app itself and throw them in to MAME like you could with the IREM collection meaning you can use what ever feature filled MAME variant tickles your fancy.

Unfortunately, the ROMs in the Irem collection are... weird. It's obviously using some kind of emulation, but the ROMs are split up into groups (GFX, CPU, SAMPLES, etc.), and as far I've seen, can't be run in any MAME because of what DOTEMU's team did with them.

[Danny]

oooohhh yeah!

Either I have been taking crazy pills this entire time or they change that because I remmeber messing around with the roms in MAME32... thats so strange!

It must be the same deal for the Raiden Legacy stuff as well, sorry guys my bad!

[lettuce]

Raiden 1 runs at 59.6Hz, RF, RF2 and RFJ run at 54.0Hz - always have, always will.

On the 360 your output is locked to 59.94Hz, so you have various options on how the internal refresh rate is converted. If you did get tearing or had other problems you simple chose the wrong option. MAME can output the games in their original refresh rate, but you need a monitor which can support it and no LCD can.

There is one LCD i know of that can, the HP LP1965 or LP2065...

Horizontal frequency: 30-94 kHz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)
Vertical frequency: 48-85 Hz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)

[IseeThings]

To paste a mail from Mamedev... I can't say if it's 100% mame, but it certainly uses the MAME cores

"'DS2404: Unknown ROM command %02X'' is from ds2404.c
"IRQ: Task gate: TSS is not an available TSS" (i386.c)
"%06x: unimplemented BRKEM (break to 8080 emulation mode)" from the v30 core
"OKIM6295 requested to play sample %02x on non-stopped voice." from the 6295...

just so you know what you're getting.

of course, if you want a proper license for the games it gets you that, but let's not pretend there isn't MAME code in there, and of course, the reason it doesn't do Raiden 2/DX is now more obvious, if it wasn't already

[Ed Oscuro]

let's not pretend there isn't MAME code in there

Let's not pretend that anybody checked this out before the accusations were thrown about

If it's legally infringing, then what's with this assassination by forum comments, when it should bring a legal challenge?

I understand if MAMEdev isn't in a position to be enforcing its license, but wanting to buyer behavior.

[IseeThings]

let's not pretend there isn't MAME code in there

Let's not pretend that anybody checked this out before the accusations were thrown about

If it's legally infringing, then what's with this assassination by forum comments, when it should bring a legal challenge?

Honestly I doubt anything will be done even if they are including the code without a license. This is more of a 'for the information of the users of this forum' post.

Mamedev is typically not aggressive in the legal department, and it would probably take some mighty extreme abuse for that to change even if I can't promise you anything.

[Fudoh]

There is one LCD i know of that can, the HP LP1965 or LP2065...
Horizontal frequency: 30-94 kHz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)
Vertical frequency: 48-85 Hz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)

well, ok, my LCDs actually *accept* those rates as well, but the panel won't display them natively, so they just get converted at another stage.

[BIL]

of course, the reason it doesn't do Raiden 2/DX is now more obvious, if it wasn't already

I callsed it I tells ya. Thanks for following up on this.

Good job the PS1 ports are rather nice albeit imperfect. Too bad there isn't an OG Raiden comp of Aces calibre for the 360.

[kathy]

of course, the reason it doesn't do Raiden 2/DX is now more obvious, if it wasn't already

I callsed it I tells ya. Thanks for following up on this.

Good job the PS1 ports are rather nice albeit imperfect. Too bad there isn't an OG Raiden comp of Aces calibre for the 360.

This.

[NZA]

I got it through GOG and I like it. I am running it on a 16:10 LCD monitor/tv and I have noticed no problems with stuttering so far. I appreciate the fact that it recognizes a Neo Geo X controller, but it will not let you use that controller to navigate the menus. It is a little annoying to have to switch back to my mouse to change a setting. I assume it may be that way for other joysticks...

[BPzeBanshee]

I got it through GOG and I like it. I am running it on a 16:10 LCD monitor/tv and I have noticed no problems with stuttering so far. I appreciate the fact that it recognizes a Neo Geo X controller, but it will not let you use that controller to navigate the menus. It is a little annoying to have to switch back to my mouse to change a setting. I assume it may be that way for other joysticks...

Have you ever run it in MAME/seen an actual cabinet to compare? Had any crashes with it?

[NZA]

I got it through GOG and I like it. I am running it on a 16:10 LCD monitor/tv and I have noticed no problems with stuttering so far. I appreciate the fact that it recognizes a Neo Geo X controller, but it will not let you use that controller to navigate the menus. It is a little annoying to have to switch back to my mouse to change a setting. I assume it may be that way for other joysticks...

Have you ever run it in MAME/seen an actual cabinet to compare? Had any crashes with it?

Unfortunately, I simply do not know how to use MAME. LOL

It seems the key with these games is to be able to run in a tv resolution and not a PC resolution. I have a Samsung Syncmaster monitor that doubles as a 1080p television. I also have a discrete graphics card in my PC. I go into the graphics card's software and set it to a TV resolution (1920x1080, 16:9) and then I am given the option to choose from a wide array of frequencies, but that doesn't seem to matter much. I think it is all about being able to run it as a TV. When I used the native PC monitor resolution of this screen (1920x1200, 16:10) I notice it runs slower. Not in a stutter, just a constant, smooth slowness. When I compare it to videos of the arcade version on Youtube, the smoothness measures up fairly well. Not quite as smooth, but close.

The people who made this port need to add better PC monitor support since I don't think people without a discrete graphics card and an odd monitor like mine can access the true frame rate of this game.

Also, it is so bare bones. I don't think I can see my scores until I set a new one, and I have not been able to put my initials in, either. Other than that, it is a cool game to play, just not a great substitute for the real thing, which is unfortunate because these are such easy problems to fix.