What is the hardest or most impressive feat in SHMUPS?

[Hagane]

Because I would think everyone does that as tapping the fire button for 20 min+ would be bad for the fingers.

On pads or Western arcade buttons maybe, but Japanese arcade buttons are extremely sensitive, so you don't need to use much strength to press them.

I find autofire to be rather uncomfortable (and distracting, if I have to use a separate button) in non-oldschool games usually. Handling suicide bullets in Psikyo games also is much harder for me with autofire. And since it's a no-no in fighting games, I generally don't use it at all.

[matrigs]

Because I would think everyone does that as tapping the fire button for 20 min+ would be bad for the fingers.

I think this guy has another stance on that subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01CmSd59Fc&t=2m00s

[trap15]

Mother of god

[TheSyllogist]

Because I would think everyone does that as tapping the fire button for 20 min+ would be bad for the fingers.

I think this guy has another stance on that subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01CmSd59Fc&t=2m00s

Why not just hold down the fire button? Would it not fire as fast as what he's doing?

When I play futari on xbox 360, if I don't hold down the "A" button, the laser shot won't activate.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why not just hold down the fire button? Would it not fire as fast as what he's doing?

Mushi has very unusual scoring mechanics that require rapid tapping of both the main shot as well as the rapid shot depending on the situation. It's unusual in that regard.

When I play futari on xbox 360, if I don't hold down the "A" button, the laser shot won't activate.

I don't think you understand the issue at hand. The C button (Rapid Shot) is essentially the autofire component, it acts the same as tapping the "A" button. Some arcade games do not have a C button or rapid button built into the game, so a lot of people use emulators that allow you to setup an equivalent of the C button (ie a button that taps A rapidly for you when held). The problem is in games where the autofire rate is not capped, your attacks are much stronger than what would normally be possible (Sine Mora), whereas in a well-made game, even with a gentle, slower tapping you will reach a built-in autofire cap and cannot fire any more quickly/powerfully with rapid tapping, so there's no damage upgrade with setting up a rapid fire button. For instance, Giga Wing has a maximum firing rate that's very easy to achieve with steady tapping that doesn't require much exertion, you can't fire any faster by mashing rapidly.

[TheSyllogist]

Why not just hold down the fire button? Would it not fire as fast as what he's doing?

Mushi has very unusual scoring mechanics that require rapid tapping of both the main shot as well as the rapid shot depending on the situation. It's unusual in that regard.

When I play futari on xbox 360, if I don't hold down the "A" button, the laser shot won't activate.

I don't think you understand the issue at hand. The C button (Rapid Shot) is essentially the autofire component, it acts the same as tapping the "A" button. Some arcade games do not have a C button or rapid button built into the game, so a lot of people use emulators that allow you to setup an equivalent of the C button (ie a button that taps A rapidly for you when held). The problem is in games where the autofire rate is not capped, your attacks are much stronger than what would normally be possible (Sine Mora), whereas in a well-made game, even with a gentle, slower tapping you will reach a built-in autofire cap and cannot fire any more quickly/powerfully with rapid tapping, so there's no damage upgrade with setting up a rapid fire button. For instance, Giga Wing has a maximum firing rate that's very easy to achieve with steady tapping that doesn't require much exertion, you can't fire any faster by mashing rapidly.

Yes that is what I was trying to get an answer to. Some games don't have autofire, but will cap the firing rate to make it easy enough to reach just by tapping lightly. Or there will have it built into them like Futari.

Thanks!

Yes if autofire is not built into the game, it would seem to be an unfair advantage.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yes if autofire is not built into the game, it would seem to be an unfair advantage.

It's only an unfair advantage in games where the autofire rate doesn't have a reasonable cap. With a cap, it's no different than having a convenient C button to use (and many ports of arcade games add such an autofire button, I think a lot of early ones lacked autofire out of convention to wear out the buttons faster?). It's only really unfair in the cases where autofire allows you to drastically break the game... but in those cases the designer really ought to have capped it.

[Hagane]

It's only really unfair in the cases where autofire allows you to drastically break the game... but in those cases the designer really ought to have capped it.

I don't see how the designer can be blamed for the unintended results of a hack.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I don't see how the designer can be blamed for the unintended results of a hack.

It's more blame for thinking constant button mashing through a game where, in most cases, you want to be shooting constantly is a good idea. It needlessly turns it into a physical endurance test that can hurt your hand IMO. At least with games with low/reasonably capped autofire rates, you don't have to mash crazily to get the most damage out of your weapon.

[Hagane]

There's nothing wrong with that. Just like you can't blame fighting games because they can be broken with autofire.

[TheSyllogist]

Who are considered the best shumpers in the world?

I saw "sinmoon" has several records. Is there a clear he doesn't have? Lol

[O. Van Bruce]

There's nothing wrong with that. Just like you can't blame fighting games because they can be broken with autofire.

But in fighting games mashing buttoms is generally considered counterproductive. In contrast, when you are playing a shmup you are supposed to be mashing the same buttom all the time so why making it harder and hazzardous to the player by not including an easy-to-reach fire cap or an autofire buttom?

[iconoclast]

Who are considered the best shumpers in the world?

I saw "sinmoon" has several records. Is there a clear he doesn't have? Lol

Yusemi-SWY es #1

The other two God-tier players are GFA2-ISO and Clover-TAC imo. sinmoon is also an excellent player of course, but he's not in the same league.

[O. Van Bruce]

Who are considered the best shumpers in the world?

I saw "sinmoon" has several records. Is there a clear he doesn't have? Lol

Yusemi-SWY es #1

The other two God-tier players are GFA2-ISO and Clover-TAC imo. sinmoon is also an excellent player of course, but he's not in the same league.

which are the achievements of those guys?

[Hagane]

But in fighting games mashing buttoms is generally considered counterproductive.

No, not at all. "Button mashing" as a synonym of unexperienced player who randomly presses buttons without thinking is counterproductive, but in regular play there are lots of instances where skillful mashing gives benefits (getting out of a dizzy, mash specials, reversals, links, etc), and using autofire extremely dumbs the execution down or outright allows you to perform stuff that's not humanly possible.

In contrast, when you are playing a shmup you are supposed to be mashing the same buttom all the time so why making it harder and hazzardous to the player by not including an easy-to-reach fire cap or an autofire buttom?

You are not supposed to mash the shot button all the time in every STG. And in some older games that weren't made with autofire in mind, you can dumb the game down a lot or do stuff that you are not supposed to do. They aren't at fault because you can break them using a hack they weren't designed to support.

Now, there are some extreme examples like Eight Forces, which is nigh unplayable without autofire. That is a case of bad design.

[Zaarock]

Now, there are some extreme examples like Eight Forces, which is nigh unplayable without autofire. That is a case of bad design.

Blazing Star comes to mind, it's not unplayable at all but you get a better shot if you keep hitting the shot button really fast. Don't really get what they were going for there, encourage ridiculous mashing or make the game even easier for players with autofire boards?

[iconoclast]

which are the achievements of those guys?

I wish I had their full "résumés", but I only know about scores I've come across online. With that being said, SWY currently has the overall WR in:

DFK1.5 w/ B-P
SDOJ Expert
Mushi Maniac (autofire)
Guwange
Psyvariar & Psyvariar Revision
Shikigami no Shiro 2

He also has very high scores in a bunch of other games, like Dodonpachi, Deathsmiles (Casper), Deathsmiles MBL (Follett), DOJWL, Futari 1.5 Ultra (Reco), Ikaruga (Hard), Gunbird 2 (Marion), Giga Wing, Shikigami no Shiro 3 & Gradius 4 (and lots more, I'm sure).


ISO has high scores in: Battle Bakraid, Espgaluda, Espgaluda 2, Futari 1.0 & 1.5 Original, Deathsmiles, DFKBL, Psyvariar Revision, DOJWL & DOJBL, Akai Katana Shin (360), Touhou PCB, KOF Sky Stage
And TAC has scores in: SDOJ, Futari 1.0 & 1.5 Maniac, ESP Ra.De, Espgaluda, Espgaluda 2, DSMBL, Progear, Dimahoo

This list is very incomplete (especially TAC's), but that's most of the stuff I know about.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Doesn't the WR holder of Mushi have a custom built autofire? that's why his score is way above everyone else. I don't have the 360 port but doesn't that have autofire modes designed into the game too?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

it does. the Ps2 has rapid fire settings also. It's still nothing compared to the rapid fire setup that was used on the PCB though. Supposedly that one had a setup so you could change the autofire rate whenever you wanted.

[Shadowduel]

Beating Pulstar in '97 with just two lives spend. It was very late at night and because of my excessive cussin my mother woke up... I remmeber her promise to "burn the bloody console right now", no matter how much it costed her. A great achievement indeed.

[Giest118]

TW4 Death Label is the hardest thing in all of shmups.

I can tell by how nobody's beaten it.

[NTSC-J]

Who are considered the best shumpers in the world?

Here's a ranking of the best players in Japan. The top tier is GFA2-ISO, LAOS-Osada Sennin, and Yusemi.

Iconoclast already mentioned the other two, but LAOS seems to have been considered the best player of the 90s (up to about DOJ when he stopped playing (?)). He's held (and still has a few) records in Donpachi, Dodonpachi, DOJ, 1944, Batrider, Super Puzzle Fighter*, Dogyuun!!, and many others.

*Outside of shmups, Clover-TAC and ISO have world records in Tetris TGM and Mr. Driller 2, respectively.

[Hagane]

Is the AFO that has records on Hyper Duel and Pink Sweets the same AFO with the incredibly strong Super Turbo Blanka?

[NTSC-J]

Could be. A lot of the master STG players cross-over and do puzzle games and fighters. Kamui, the Battle Garegga champ, is also very talented at VF5.

[iconoclast]

^ KTL-NAL (aka Homestay Akira) has been a top VF player for a very long time too. Guy's awesome.

Here's a ranking of the best players in Japan. The top tier is GFA2-ISO, LAOS-Osada Sennin, and Yusemi.

This is great. I guess I overrated TAC a bit since I'm biased towards Cave and his scores for Futari and DSMBL are especially impressive to me.

[zaphod]

I still want to see Battle Garegga single life cleared without practicing extreme rank control. I think that's the hardest possible feat. maybe even impossible?

[BIL]

Depending on your definition of "extreme" it probably is impossible, rather like Ikaruga can't be no-missed without switching polarity. You can manage to a degree in both tasks but at some point you'll have to stop ignoring the game design or die.

[TheSyllogist]

Who are considered the best shumpers in the world?

Here's a ranking of the best players in Japan. The top tier is GFA2-ISO, LAOS-Osada Sennin, and Yusemi.

Iconoclast already mentioned the other two, but LAOS seems to have been considered the best player of the 90s (up to about DOJ when he stopped playing (?)). He's held (and still has a few) records in Donpachi, Dodonpachi, DOJ, 1944, Batrider, Super Puzzle Fighter*, Dogyuun!!, and many others.

*Outside of shmups, Clover-TAC and ISO have world records in Tetris TGM and Mr. Driller 2, respectively.

I wonder what these guys consider the toughest clears. With records in several games, they must have a systematic approach to playing shmups plus a ton of hours invested.

[BIL]

Old but good interview with INH Ketsui DVD superplayers SYO and Futabishi here at Gamengai.

[Vyxx]

After all the submissions I still say Ibara second loop (Extend) is still harder than anything anyone has put forward.