Black Sheep of Game Series

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Hagane
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Hagane »

null1024 wrote:Even 96 is more of a black sheep than 2003 -- it's the only one with rolling and ABC charge at the same time, lots of bugs [hello Leona!], etc.
I think it's unfair to call that game a black sheep, it introduced so many things to KOF and made it what it is now. Yeah it is broken as hell and unfinished, but it was revolutionary for its time. It also has the best presentation of any KOF, and my favorite fighting game OST.
gameoverDude wrote:Street Fighter 1: It was necessary if we wanted to see SF2 & 3, but it sure hasn't aged well.
Even though it was a Karate Champ rip-off (funny that Capcom tried to sue Data East over Fighter's History...), it introduced special move inputs (HUGE innovation) so it doesn't deserve to be mentioned here IMO.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Ebbo wrote:Prime's bosses can be rather methodical ala Zelda but atleast they all have distinctive and solid designs. Other M's bosses on other hand feel pretty samey and are hardly a challenge as long you spam the dodge like there is no tomorrow (although that's more or less fault of Other M's overly lenient combat system).
I've been playing Wind Waker and Oracle of Ages lately and no, Prime's bosses are not as much fun. They seem like placeholders rather than the game's main course.
No idea why the Other M's bosses felt samey to you, or how spamming dodge there is ANY worse than spamming dash in Prime for that matter. The combat's leniency seemed just right to me for a sequel to Super Metroid. I didn't expect it to be Viewtiful Joe-tough.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:I've been playing Wind Waker and Oracle of Ages lately and no, Prime's bosses are not as much fun. They seem like placeholders rather than the game's main course.
Oracle of Ages is a puzzle game with close to no emphasis on action. The bosses are all puzzles pretty much. It`s literally almost completely impossible to lose to them if you know the key to the puzzle. How does one even start comparing something like that to Metroid Prime which actually requires skill to overcome the challenges? MP`s final boss on the highest difficulty setting is one of the hardest boss fights of the previous console generation.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Ebbo »

Obiwanshinobi wrote: No idea why the Other M's bosses felt samey to you, or how spamming dodge there is ANY worse than spamming dash in Prime for thatmatter.
Well for one, dash in Prime doesn't grant you short invulnerability and it doesn't charge your shot immediately as a bonus. And unlike in Other M, using dash actually requires some timing in Prime games instead of just smashing d-pad when enemy attacks.

Most of Other M's bosses follow pretty similar pattern:
1. Stun/freeze the boss with charge shot.
2. Fire missiles at weak spot/initiate QTE.
In Prime games you have to use different visors, morph ball and all other abilities gained through your journey - again, in pretty similar fashion to Zelda - to defeat bosses. Maybe you found Other M's flashier boss encounters more fun but I would still argue Prime series bosses are better designed overall.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:MP`s final boss on the highest difficulty setting is one of the hardest boss fights of the previous console generation.
"Hard" does not always equal "fun". Whether Prime's bosses make for good speedrunning or they are more fun at the end of playthrough on the hardest difficulty is of little concern to me as I play it for the first time.
Dark Fact in Ys Eternal on Hard was much tougher than any of the game's previous bosses, but the bosses I fought on my way to Dark Fact were enjoyable enough. I believe Metroid games should fave fun bosses by default.
Ebbo wrote:Well for one, dash in Prime doesn't grant you short invulnerability and it doesn't charge your shot immediately as a bonus. And unlike in Other M, using dash actually requires some timing in Prime games instead of just smashing d-pad when enemy attacks.
Invulnerability while dashing/dodging is fine with me. Shinobi (2002) and Viewtiful Joe proved that bosses can put up some good fights nonetheless. So did Other M for my money.
As for timing, I didn't find it too lenient in Other M. Your mileage may vary (I for one finished Gitaroo Man and Parappa, but chaining in Vagrant Story drives me mad).
P.S. Z.O.E.2 is a game where I found dashing and invulerability too easily spammable and as such - detrimental to the fun (as if the poor performance wasn't problematic enough).
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Mortificator »

Metroid Prime's bosses felt like an appropriate challenge my first playthrough. I won most of the major fights the first try with only a tiny bit of energy left, the exceptions being the Omega Pirate (who was easy) and Ridley (who killed me a couple times).

You named some relatively strong FPS bosses in you earlier post, but considering games as a whole, those opponents sure don't reach the upper echelon of boss fights. The Painkiller and Serious Sam dudes mostly impress through their size. The First Encounter's final boss looks intimidating, but you ultimately kill him by activating a puzzle.

Maybe the FPS genre just isn't as suited to boss fights as games with a third-person perspective are, but I don't want developers to give up on them. Light gun games have had great bosses, so maybe something can be learned there.

As for the top-down games you mentioned, I agree about Dark Fact. That fight felt too luck-based on hard. Oracle of Ages, there were too many times I was asking myself how to even hurt the boss. I think Seasons was better with its improved versions of the original Zelda bosses, through Ages had a superior final boss.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by null1024 »

Hagane wrote:
null1024 wrote:Even 96 is more of a black sheep than 2003 -- it's the only one with rolling and ABC charge at the same time, lots of bugs [hello Leona!], etc.
I think it's unfair to call that game a black sheep, it introduced so many things to KOF and made it what it is now. Yeah it is broken as hell and unfinished, but it was revolutionary for its time. It also has the best presentation of any KOF, and my favorite fighting game OST.
gameoverDude wrote:Street Fighter 1: It was necessary if we wanted to see SF2 & 3, but it sure hasn't aged well.
Even though it was a Karate Champ rip-off (funny that Capcom tried to sue Data East over Fighter's History...), it introduced special move inputs (HUGE innovation) so it doesn't deserve to be mentioned here IMO.
It does. The game certainly tried, but SFII is such a different game [and so is every fighting game after that, and even a game that was designed by people from the SF1 dev team, Fatal Fury: King of Fighters, is wildly different [and somehow, very similar to SFII still, despite being made concurrently]] -- playing SFI is mostly hoping your special input was recognized so you could hit with your Hadoken that did 1/3 or 1/2 damage, and dealing with the choppy motion. It was really janky, and as innovative as it was [it was the direct ancestor of all modern fighters, and it provided a bit of a framework for its sequel that started the fighting game craze], it is still quite the black sheep. No other SF title seemed as "off" as it, not even the EX games [which are fundamentally just ordinary Street Fighter games, but with polygon characters].

It's the black sheep because it suffers from first installment weirdness -- they were trying to get to grips with how to make a fighting game, when the other examples around weren't that great, and many were based on tournament style sport fighting with point systems instead of health.

The only other fighting game I can think of that's really similar to SF1 from before it is Yie Ar Kung Fu [but that doesn't have specials or blocking, which were some rather important innovations SF1 provided, although that doesn't mean SF1 is any good].
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by DocHauser »

null1024 wrote: No other SF title seemed as "off" as it, not even the EX games [which are fundamentally just ordinary Street Fighter games, but with polygon characters].
How about Street Fighter: The Movie? I guess people don't even consider that a real SF game...
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Moniker »

W/r/t the Metroid Prime debate, I'd say Prime 2, while not a bad game, is definitely not a Metroid game. It's a Zelda game with dead space pirates strewn about.

It's funny you say you kept on thinking of Other M while playing Prime, because I was the complete opposite. Other M wasn't bad, really, although I doubt I'll ever play it again. I think an Other M2 could be pretty great, if they learn from the original's shortcomings.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by null1024 »

DocHauser wrote:
null1024 wrote: No other SF title seemed as "off" as it, not even the EX games [which are fundamentally just ordinary Street Fighter games, but with polygon characters].
How about Street Fighter: The Movie? I guess people don't even consider that a real SF game...
Oh shit, I forgot about that. The arcade one isn't terrible, but it looks like shit. The home version is godawful.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Hagane »

null1024 wrote:It does. The game certainly tried, but SFII is such a different game [and so is every fighting game after that, and even a game that was designed by people from the SF1 dev team, Fatal Fury: King of Fighters, is wildly different [and somehow, very similar to SFII still, despite being made concurrently]] -- playing SFI is mostly hoping your special input was recognized so you could hit with your Hadoken that did 1/3 or 1/2 damage, and dealing with the choppy motion. It was really janky, and as innovative as it was [it was the direct ancestor of all modern fighters, and it provided a bit of a framework for its sequel that started the fighting game craze], it is still quite the black sheep. No other SF title seemed as "off" as it, not even the EX games [which are fundamentally just ordinary Street Fighter games, but with polygon characters].

It's the black sheep because it suffers from first installment weirdness -- they were trying to get to grips with how to make a fighting game, when the other examples around weren't that great, and many were based on tournament style sport fighting with point systems instead of health.

The only other fighting game I can think of that's really similar to SF1 from before it is Yie Ar Kung Fu [but that doesn't have specials or blocking, which were some rather important innovations SF1 provided, although that doesn't mean SF1 is any good].

Yeah, but you can say that now in retrospective. At the time, SF1 made some cool advancements and wasn't much worse than its contemporaries. Both Yie ar Kung fu and SF1 were heavily inspired by Karate Champ, the first in the genre.

I mean, if we are going to judge games that way then World Warrior is a terrible game too because it didn't have reversals so you could be tick thrown to death, it was extremely broken and random, didn't let you do mirror matches (except Ryu vs. Ryu with a glitch), most of its "innovations" were glitches (combos, crossups) etc. But it's not really fair, because at the time it was released it was a great game and influenced many games after it.

If you want a black sheep, you have to look at the Street Fighter III series. Regardless of tastes, all the games in that saga play very little like Street Fighter. Parrying either nullifies or waters down a lot of Street Fighter (and 2D fighting game) strategies and basics; projectiles are pretty much worthless, anti-airing works very differently, crossups are much less significant, all the fighting is done at close range (except when both characters step back to whiff normals to charge their super bar), stage positioning is much less relevant... it plays closer to a watered down 3D fighter than to Street Fighter. So different they play that they were a commercial flop (whereas Alpha 3 was a huge success, selling roughly a million units in the PSX at a time when 2D fighting games were passé).
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hagane wrote:Yeah, but you can say that now in retrospective. At the time, SF1 made some cool advancements and wasn't much worse than its contemporaries.
For example, two years later SNK's entry into the market was Street Smart. Not widely remembered, and SNK didn't particularly care to credit it as a forerunner to their fighters.

Street Fighter only is one year after Gladiator / Ougon no Siro!

It's interesting to see how Street Smart (despite the nasty palette)'s and Street Fighter's approaches to the design are almost pretty well set for their initial games. Street Smart has the usual crowd backdrop, but rather smaller characters than later, while Street Fighter almost looks the same as its successor, and much better than the competition.

Street Smart also seems to have a very basic contextual combo system.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:For example, two years later SNK's entry into the market was Street Smart. Not widely remembered, and SNK didn't particularly care to credit it as a forerunner to their fighters.
If nothing else it led to some highly amusing box art.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by UnscathedFlyingObject »

Silent Hill 4: loved it until the second half with all the backtracking and chick following you.

Metal Slug 4: haphazardly put together with recycled content. More like a fan-made game than a original entry.

Metroid Other M: game played itself and I wanted to punch Samus in the vocal cords. Sells for $10 in Amazon.

Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BulletMagnet wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:For example, two years later SNK's entry into the market was Street Smart. Not widely remembered, and SNK didn't particularly care to credit it as a forerunner to their fighters.
If nothing else it led to some highly amusing box art.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

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UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
HEY! I will not tolerate such kind language used in reference to Mega Man X6 in my own thread. Only the greatest level of hatred and disgust is acceptable for that unbelievably repulsive piece of fucking garbage... that i beat three times...
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Gespenst »

Driv3r and Driver: Parallel Lines, although honestly I don't quite enjoy the latter but sorta liked the former, presumably due to the film director.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by BIL »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Obviously the direct ancestor of OH MY GOD WHAT IS THIS RACIST GARBAGE
Baaaahaha! Someone should stoke those RAECISM flames with an SFII hack that replaces the attract sequence with a gif of BOBBU SAPP vs PETER AERTS.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Capcom tried to make a GIF loader for SFII but they couldn't afford the Compuserve patent royalties.

Bob Sapp is the #1 choice of japanese H-mangaka everywhere for the "typical scary looking black man," so it is only natural because approximately 50% of indie game development is by secret H-mangaka.

Where I was going with this...oh yeah, Bob Sapp's face turn? I felt for him after that low shot or whatever it was. Still processing images. Can't understand how the Sapp died in 12 seconds.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by BIL »

I think Aerts kneed him in teh sternum :[ HE TURNIN' PINK at one point!
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Metal Slug 4: haphazardly put together with recycled content. More like a fan-made game than a original entry.
Either being really fussy or have not played it in-depth.
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
I'll never understand why people keep getting so butthurt over this one. It's not even that hard.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by njiska »

ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
I'll never understand why people keep getting so butthurt over this one. It's not even that hard.
It's not about difficulty, it's about bad design, tedious bullshit, and an Easy mode that can be harder to beat than Normal. I can't remember what I said in the past, but I've played this again recently (I have no idea why), and I had to stop because it was just too annoying. Not hard, annoying. The only other game in the series that's close is X7, but even it is arguably less bullshitty.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

Probably the only thing that comes to mind when you say poorly designed and tedious is Blaze Heatnix and Ground Scaravich stages, which I acknowledge are the game's absolute lowest points. Blizzard Wolfang & Metal Shark Player are both pretty slow going, but I find both of them to be well designed stages regardless. Commander Yammark and Shield Sheldon are both dirt easy with the rest of the game being a solid, fun challenge. Although I'll admit I've never tried any of the other difficulty settings before.
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Re: Black Sheeps of Game Series

Post by Marble »

Surely if any of the SF games are a black sheep, it's Street Fighter 2010.

Also I don't see how say, Simon's Quest could be considered a black sheep. SoTN and every game since has been fairly similar.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by njiska »

ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:Probably the only thing that comes to mind when you say poorly designed and tedious is Blaze Heatnix and Ground Scaravich stages, which I acknowledge are the game's absolute lowest points. Blizzard Wolfang & Metal Shark Player are both pretty slow going, but I find both of them to be well designed stages regardless. Commander Yammark and Shield Sheldon are both dirt easy with the rest of the game being a solid, fun challenge. Although I'll admit I've never tried any of the other difficulty settings before.
So here's the issue with easy mode that makes me question the game's design. In order to get past the first stage of Gate's castle you need either Zero, Jumper or the Shadow Armour. Now Zero is easy to get regardless of difficulty, but to get Jumper you need the Shadow Armour and there in lies the problem. The Body parts for the Shadow Armour are located in Rainy Turtloid's stage between a set of spikes with the narrowest of possible gaps. I've only once ever been able to get through there without invincibility. On normal you can get hit by a Bat that's in the area and dash through with invincibility, but on easy the bats are removed so your only option is to do it clean. This is not easy. And yeah I know you can technically get the jumper with the Blade Armour, but it's kind of a bitch.

That's also ignoring the fact that all of these items, including Zero are hidden, yet required to progress. It's shit like that that really grinds my gears. I also find that most of the nightmare effects do little to increase the challenge of a stage, so much as they increase the tediousness. And fuck the nightmare effects in Infinity Mjinion's stage. That shit's just unfair.

I've beaten the game three times, with X (Normal), Zero (Normal) and X not finding Zero (Easy) and each progressive playthrough was more annoying then the last. And again that really is the key word. The game is annoying, not difficult. There are definitely some stages that are not bad to play, but through in a nightmare effect and they're ruined.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

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UnscathedFlyingObject wrote: Metal Slug 4: haphazardly put together with recycled content. More like a fan-made game than a original entry.

I thought it was just me being too demanding after playing MS3, but yes. Something was off about MS4. Best way to describe it would be like having your wife replaced by a Body Snatcher: Looks like her, dresses like her, talks like her, but somehow it's not actually her.
Marble wrote:Surely if any of the SF games are a black sheep, it's Street Fighter 2010.

I hope I'm missing any sarcasm here. The game wasn't even supposed to be a side story originally. It was simply titled "2010" in Japan (I think), and the only connections to the SF series was the character's name, being made by Capcom, and them pasting the name on the US version.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by KAI »

P4A.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by UnscathedFlyingObject »

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
I'll never understand why people keep getting so butthurt over this one. It's not even that hard.[/quote]

I'll never understand why people need to insult others over this one. It's just a badly designed game that is not even that hard.

Here's some awesome game that are hard and well designed: Ghost and Ghouls, God Hand (Hard difficulty,) Vanquish (God Hard,) and DMC3. Vanquish's death count maximum is 999 by the way. I kept going back for more despite dying hundreds of times.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by Hagane »

KAI wrote:P4A.
It's the black sheep because it's the only one that doesn't stink.
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Re: Black Sheep of Game Series

Post by blackoak »

Mega Man X6: God it stinks.
I'd say there's a full-on flock of black sheep in that series. I never even got to X6... by X4 I was tired of the MMX formula. The first one was good enough as it goes, but I don't like how they diluted and slowed down the platforming of classic MM with item collection and "secrets." Shit stage design too, like Compile on opiates. X2 and X3 were the limit of my tolerance. :?
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