Too many shooters at once?

[XoPachi]

I have been doing the weirdest cheat fucking dodges lately. I may just implement the more orthodox one of my two favorites that occured during Ketsui today. I got through level 5 without dying (until Evacaneer) not skillfully, MIRACULOUSLY. These two "maneuvers" were what I call "Around the World" and the "I'm Dead". The first, I panicked and went around the edges of the screen to avoid fire and kill those bastard Tiger Schwartz rip offs. The second I swore I was going to die on Trafalgar and just sat there to accept death...bullets flew right over me. Not ideal, but I still felt pro...

[trap15]

Yes, I actually recently did the Around the World thing in Mushi stage 5 with all those small ground enemies that shoot tons of crap at you. I'm going to have to utilize that trick more for sure.

[cuttingagent]

I know this is hard to find these days, but you should invite some friends over who have an interest in STGs and take turns playing. I have, as far as I know, only one friend who has been recently getting more into shmuppery--he lives out of town, but visits Portland occasionally. I'm definitely looking forward to sitting down and playing with him, but for now, I've started a little private facebook group where we are posting scores between friends, which is pretty cool because we are both at that lower tier skill level, and it's not as fun competing with, say, people on this board whose skill level completely dwarfs mine. You may find this to be less akin to looking at a cheat sheet than watching replays.

Yesterday we were both doing runs in Giga Wing between chatting, and it's the closest thing I've come to playing a game 'with' somebody in a couple months, sadly. The social aspect of these games is great. If you take turns playing with a friend, you then know everything they know about the game, and they know everything you know. Danmaku games are not so much memorization as say, a Gradius, so it's not like you're going to watch them and try to replicate their every button input verbatim. I really wish I knew people in my own town who play the games, so I'm going to start doing more to build and participate in community as much as I can. I'm also looking to start a weekly Street Fighter social group that meets at the local Barcade and play their SFA3 cab. As for shooters, I just keep posting crap about Recca on my facebook wall and hope somebody stumbles onto it and I find we have a common interest.

You want friends and community around for ANY difficult task, whether getting through a divorce or beating a shooting game.

But as far as replays go, people who like to play basketball like to also watch people who excel at the game, and I look at replays as much of the same thing, it's just like watching a basketball game on TV. I more or less consider certain types of video games to be sports you play with your thumbs, shooters and fighters especially.

Happy shooting!

[XoPachi]

Yes, I actually recently did the Around the World thing in Mushi stage 5 with all those small ground enemies that shoot tons of crap at you. I'm going to have to utilize that trick more for sure.

I don't know why, but I paused and laughed hysterically when I did that. I guess it was disbelief.

I know this is hard to find these days, but you should invite some friends over who have an interest in STGs and take turns playing. I have, as far as I know, only one friend who has been recently getting more into shmuppery--he lives out of town, but visits Portland occasionally. I'm definitely looking forward to sitting down and playing with him, but for now, I've started a little private facebook group where we are posting scores between friends, which is pretty cool because we are both at that lower tier skill level, and it's not as fun competing with, say, people on this board whose skill level completely dwarfs mine. You may find this to be less akin to looking at a cheat sheet than watching replays.

Yesterday we were both doing runs in Giga Wing between chatting, and it's the closest thing I've come to playing a game 'with' somebody in a couple months, sadly. The social aspect of these games is great. If you take turns playing with a friend, you then know everything they know about the game, and they know everything you know. Danmaku games are not so much memorization as say, a Gradius, so it's not like you're going to watch them and try to replicate their every button input verbatim. I really wish I knew people in my own town who play the games, so I'm going to start doing more to build and participate in community as much as I can. I'm also looking to start a weekly Street Fighter social group that meets at the local Barcade and play their SFA3 cab. As for shooters, I just keep posting crap about Recca on my facebook wall and hope somebody stumbles onto it and I find we have a common interest.

You want friends and community around for ANY difficult task, whether getting through a divorce or beating a shooting game.

But as far as replays go, people who like to play basketball like to also watch people who excel at the game, and I look at replays as much of the same thing, it's just like watching a basketball game on TV. I more or less consider certain types of video games to be sports you play with your thumbs, shooters and fighters especially.

Happy shooting!

RECCAAAAA...Das a gud game. D:

And the only friend I know praises me at shooters because he isn't too good. He has Otomedius X, Guwange, ESPGaluda 2, and Mushi Futari. He's only really good at Otomedius, but even I 1CCed it's expert mode the 3rd time I tried it on the same night I first played it. I'm not lying, I swear it's the easiest Gradius. I don't think he'd be willing to invest the time in these games. More likely than others in this town, but not likely still. Everyone (no literally EVERYONE) else who plays games is obsessed with UMVC3 and League of Legends at the moment. I can't stand either. And they can't stand shooters. None of them. In fact I used to be made fun of heavily for it back in high school and even a bit in college now. It doesn't matter at all how good it looks they say there's no difference between DODONPACHI and Galaga. That's how narrowminded these people are. HD Bullet Hell looks like an archaic, 8 bit single shot, non scrolling, musicless game. Sense? None here. There are shooter meets here in this state, but much too far to have frequent trips.

[Illyrian]

Play Touhou games.

The best trick for learing a game I can offer is to just set a save state at the beginning of it and play it over and over. Even if you complete it, no miss no bomb, hit restart and play it again until you can clear it 3-4 times in a row.

Do that for all the levels in the game that give you trouble. Then go back to the title screen, slap a credit in and go for it while the knowledge is still fresh in your head. It really works suprisingly well. It's how I've got a few of my clears anyway!

[XoPachi]

That'll be an outright no. I'm sorry. I played What was it, Scarlet Devil? Really, really don't like Touhou for multiple reasons. One shooter series you can't get me to play.

[Deca]

Touhou is probably the most efficient way to improve general dodging skills and precision. I outright refused to play the games for years but after hanging around some of the better players on here I was convinced to give them another shot. I don't think it's a coincidence that most of our best players are always playing Touhou.

Not really trying to change your mind here, just some food for thought. I felt exactly the same way you did for a long time so I can completely understand. Honestly most of the games you listed in your opening post will do a great job of getting you off to a good start once you decide which you'd like to focus on.

[RNGmaster]

Mind explaining why exactly you wil never, never play Touhou?

I looked down my nose at Touhou games for years - mostly thinking I was far too cool to play "weeaboo" games - but despite slow bullet speed and bad art they really do skyrocket your skill level. You might argue that playing Touhou when you could be blasting away at another IKD shmup is no fun, but each different style of shmup will contribute to your overall skill in a different way and help to make you an overall better player. For example, bullet hitboxes in Touhou are generally slightly bigger than the 1x1 hitboxes in later CAVE games, so you can't rely as much on luck to make tight dodges and you have to practice larger motions. Trying to become a great player by just focusing on CAVE shmups is like weight training and just working on bicep curls :V.

And don't just try to increase your 1cc count. You shouldn't be racing to get the largest number - if you enjoy a game's art and patterns and you enjoy the scoring, take it more deliberately and try to savor it. I've probably seriously 1cc'd about 8 games in 2 years of play, but I don't really care, and I don't think anyone here would say that makes me a bad player, so uh, don't let that number define you. In the end, the biggest risk isn't failure (that's an inevitability), it's thinking of shmups as a race or as work.

[FIL]

Shoot the Bullet is probably an awesome dodging trainer.

[XoPachi]

Mind explaining why exactly you wil never, never play Touhou?

I looked down my nose at Touhou games for years - mostly thinking I was far too cool to play "weeaboo" games - but despite slow bullet speed and bad art they really do skyrocket your skill level. You might argue that playing Touhou when you could be blasting away at another IKD shmup is no fun, but each different style of shmup will contribute to your overall skill in a different way and help to make you an overall better player. For example, bullet hitboxes in Touhou are generally slightly bigger than the 1x1 hitboxes in later CAVE games, so you can't rely as much on luck to make tight dodges and you have to practice larger motions. Trying to become a great player by just focusing on CAVE shmups is like weight training and just working on bicep curls :V.

And don't just try to increase your 1cc count. You shouldn't be racing to get the largest number - if you enjoy a game's art and patterns and you enjoy the scoring, take it more deliberately and try to savor it. I've probably seriously 1cc'd about 8 games in 2 years of play, but I don't really care, and I don't think anyone here would say that makes me a bad player, so uh, don't let that number define you. In the end, the biggest risk isn't failure (that's an inevitability), it's thinking of shmups as a race or as work.

Well...I may as well deactivate my account now. I new this topic was going to rear it's fucking head.
Look, my reasoning won't matter. People will still think I'm an idiot for it and troll me off the site because of how popular Touhou is. Trust me, I've seen Touhou fanatics like I'm sure some of you have. So don't worry about it. Just know I don't like it and won't play it unless I'm given a DAMN good reason. :I
I won't attack fans or say anything about it unless asked, though. If you really must know just PM me.

And I still would like to at least 1CC DonPachi and DoDonPachi so I can be taken somewhat seriously here in future topics (even though my previous statement probably annihilated any chances of that happening).

Touhou is probably the most efficient way to improve general dodging skills and precision. I outright refused to play the games for years but after hanging around some of the better players on here I was convinced to give them another shot. I don't think it's a coincidence that most of our best players are always playing Touhou.

Not really trying to change your mind here, just some food for thought. I felt exactly the same way you did for a long time so I can completely understand. Honestly most of the games you listed in your opening post will do a great job of getting you off to a good start once you decide which you'd like to focus on.

I can't see it that way not even because I hate the games. Unless the games are made by the same company with the same structure, I don't think I'd get good at games by playing something different. It's like trying to be good at Sonic by playing Mario. May help a little bit, but nothing noticeable. It works for some game genres like fighters and FPS's (especially since everything is CoD now) but it doesn't work for me in shooters. That's why I asked if I'm playing too many at once. None of them seemed to carry over to each other except maybe the vert Cave titles.

[dunpeal2064]

I've been here for a year without playing Touhou, so don't worry. The time may come when you tire of Cave, which you then will most likely move on to Raizing, then maybe Psikyo, then maybe some oldschool stuff... and who knows, you may be bored enough one day to try touhou.

Just play what you enjoy, fuck "getting good". it comes with time.

Edit: at least... don't worry about building those general skills. Working on progressing in any game will get you better at shmups in general.

[XoPachi]

I have seen Psikyo and the Raizing names. I swear I have games they made, but I can't friggin remember what. >.<
And I'll never tire of Cave. I've been playing DFK longer than I have Skyrim (70 hour file and on my laptop so I play it out side of home too). This was before BareKnuckleRoo sent me a MAME emulator and pointed me to some roms that actually work. Same with Gradius. That's not the reason I'd never pick up Touhou, though, just putting it out there. Love their stuff too much.

[dunpeal2064]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you will permanently tire of cave, but as your tastes and skills grow, you will surely want to experience more.

I mean, if you love Cave, then you will definitely love Ibara, Muchi Muchi Pork, and Pink Sweets... which may then spark your interest in YGW's other shooters like Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, and Battle Bakraid. Then you might be curious to check out other Raizing shooters that weren't developed by YGW, like Soukyugurentai and Dimahoo.

Then you may end up wanting to try out some Toaplan shooters, to see where Ikeda got his start. That may lead you to check out Takumi, who also came from toaplan.

And that is only taking into account if you want to try stuff directly linked to Cave

[Deca]

Unless the games are made by the same company with the same structure, I don't think I'd get good at games by playing something different. It's like trying to be good at Sonic by playing Mario. May help a little bit, but nothing noticeable. It works for some game genres like fighters and FPS's (especially since everything is CoD now) but it doesn't work for me in shooters.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is just because you aren't good enough/haven't been playing long enough yet. Skills transfer universally and you'll begin to see that as your own increase, the reason you feel the way you do is likely because your progress in given games is primarily memorization based. There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's just that as you go through learning more games like that you'll find more general skills building that will give you a leg up approaching games you've never seen before. Just take it a step at a time and most importantly maintain a positive attitude no matter what it takes, I can't express enough how important that is. I've been stagnating in DOJ lately because I've been struggling with it.

Also I think there are probably more people around here that despise Touhou than those that love it, it just happens that most of our top rankers play the games.

[XoPachi]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you will permanently tire of cave, but as your tastes and skills grow, you will surely want to experience more.

I mean, if you love Cave, then you will definitely love Ibara, Muchi Muchi Pork, and Pink Sweets... which may then spark your interest in YGW's other shooters like Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, and Battle Bakraid. Then you might be curious to check out other Raizing shooters that weren't developed by YGW, like Soukyugurentai and Dimahoo.

Then you may end up wanting to try out some Toaplan shooters, to see where Ikeda got his start. That may lead you to check out Takumi, who also came from toaplan.

And that is only taking into account if you want to try stuff directly linked to Cave

I knew Cave made Ibara. It had that familiar look to it, but nothing I was watching ever said it. Game looks nuts! And Muchi Muchi Pork...my friend showed me a comic that makes me look at the game...funny. *x* I'll still give it a go, however. As well as Pink Sweets. Just need money.

[dunpeal2064]

Muchi Muchi Pork does indeed look funny, but I think its one of Cave's best games.

Ibara and Pink Sweets are Cave games, but they follow the style that was built in Battle Garegga. If you looked at Garegga, Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, and Pink Sweets running next to each other, it would blow you away as to how similar yet different they all are.

I know this because Dave K had 4 out of those 5 games all running at the same time at one of his shmupmeets

[Deca]

MMP is amazing because it's so blatantly Raizing, very fun.

Playing Pink Sweets is like being at a wine tasting or something, I've had the port since release and only started getting into it a week or two ago. I don't think it's immediately apparent how similar it is to Garegga but the more you play it the more obvious it becomes.

[dunpeal2064]

Yeah, I think Pink Sweets and Mars Matrix are the most "acquired taste" shooters I have played.

I'm really bummed that my 360 tok the crap and I have no Pork or Sweets

[Erppo]

XoPachi: If you're 19 and new to the genre, you will need something like 2-3 years of intelligent practice to get good.

Uhh what. I started at 21 without ever having played an arcade style shmup before. I haven't even played 3 full years as of now and I like to think I'm at least adequate.

I played mostly Touhou in the start but my first arcade clear was the first loop of DDP which was 4 months or so from starting out. If first loops don't count, I cleared Guwange couple of weeks after that.

[XoPachi]

Muchi Muchi Pork does indeed look funny, but I think its one of Cave's best games.

Ibara and Pink Sweets are Cave games, but they follow the style that was built in Battle Garegga. If you looked at Garegga, Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, and Pink Sweets running next to each other, it would blow you away as to how similar yet different they all are.

I know this because Dave K had 4 out of those 5 games all running at the same time at one of his shmupmeets

MMP looks hilarious. I'm not judging it. Just saying after something I saw, I'll take it far less seriously than normal. And from other sources, I heard it was actually the least praised of Cave's titles. I don't see why but I can wager it's the wacky style and buxom main characters (which I wouldn't care). Everyone seems to be afraid of boobs nowadays and odd styles. >3>

Ketsui will always be my favorite Cave game, though. Just did everything right. Only some parts aren't as color blind friendly.
I need to get a hold of Ibara. MAME?

[Deca]

Only some parts aren't as color blind friendly.

Being colorblind myself I've actually felt the same way. However, we recently discovered that Emuser is also colorblind and he walks all over that game so it probably isn't a legit excuse haha.

As for Ibara, it's sort of supported but I've never seen it run properly/at full speed.

[Zorator]

IMO Touhou isn't good general shmup/dodging practice because of it's liberal panic bombing. Whenever I try to play another game after playing lots of Touhou I find myself dying from hitting bomb a fraction of a second late.

Also, if you are playing these games to rack up 1CC's and be taken seriously on a forum you just joined, you are doing it wrong. That being said go try Batsugun Special. I've come really close to clearing it without prior practice several times(ironically whenever I do practice and actually try to clear it I do worse!)

Edit: BTW What parts of Ketsui are a problem for you color blind players? I am also little color blind and I've never found anything in Ketsui hard to see because of it, but I also haven't spent much time in the last two stages outside of credit feeding.

[dunpeal2064]

I know of a few other members that think that Muchi Pork is at least top 5. Pretty sure EOJ has Pork pretty high up on his list.

Of course, that applies to almost every Cave game. I'd say Dangun Feveron and Donpachi get less love than Pork. The first Espgaluda as well. But there are a good group of folks here that think that DOJ, Ketsui, Espgaluda II, DDP, Guwange, Ibara, DFK, etc are each the best Cave title.

I personally would say Pork, Ketsui, and Futari are my favorite Cave games, but I have not played them all yet.

[XoPachi]

I know of a few other members that think that Muchi Pork is at least top 5. Pretty sure EOJ has Pork pretty high up on his list.

Of course, that applies to almost every Cave game. I'd say Dangun Feveron and Donpachi get less love than Pork. The first Espgaluda as well. But there are a good group of folks here that think that DOJ, Ketsui, Espgaluda II, DDP, Guwange, Ibara, DFK, etc are each the best Cave title.

I personally would say Pork, Ketsui, and Futari are my favorite Cave games, but I have not played them all yet.

Dangun Feveron!? I have never heard of this one! I must go hunt for it. o-o

IMO Touhou isn't good general shmup/dodging practice because of it's liberal panic bombing. Whenever I try to play another game after playing lots of Touhou I find myself dying from hitting bomb a fraction of a second late.

Also, if you are playing these games to rack up 1CC's and be taken seriously on a forum you just joined, you are doing it wrong. That being said go try Batsugun Special. I've come really close to clearing it without prior practice several times(ironically whenever I do practice and actually try to clear it I do worse!)

Edit: BTW What parts of Ketsui are a problem for you color blind players? I am also little color blind and I've never found anything in Ketsui hard to see because of it, but I also haven't spent much time in the last two stages outside of credit feeding.

The parts are only in Evac Industry and somewhat when fighting Cinderella Amber. When the C.A. and the fake Panzer's and Schwartz's come around shooting these light colored AND flashing missiles, I can't tell on top of the moving backgrounds and other bullets. Plus they whip out and overlap each other making it worse because they're clustered together making it harder to spot them.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I don't have any issues with that since I don't have any case of that, but wouldn't the stage 3 boss final attack be an issue for someone that has color blindness since you're supposed to stay near one color and avoid being near the other?

[XoPachi]

No. Jamadhar's bullets are flying over an incredibly dark background. And nothing is flashing. I can see clearly. Plus I have a good strategy that keeps me only focused on one color. I still have to move, but I just stay dangerously close to the middle stream of blue bullets and move accordingly as they undulate. I don't have to pay attention to the red bullets at all IF I'm in a certain spot towards the bottom. Now sometimes Vinogradov gets me with his pink bullets spiraling over that bright as ocean (anyone else think it looks like an evening sky rather than water?)

And who's that guy in your sig? Swear I've seen him somewhere. Looks corrupt...

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I don't remember since I wasn't the one who designed that banner for STGT.

I do think it was some SNK character though.

[XoPachi]

Yeah I was thinking either Capcom or SNK.

[chempop]

Don't worry about avoiding Touhou, I've never touched any myself and don't plan to in the foreseeable future. I also am not into watching replays, except once in a while for shits and giggles, or if there is a very specific strategy for a particular wall I can't pass. I totally see eye-to-eye with you about the personal enjoyment of figuring out a route that is individual to the player, maybe that's why I progress alot slower than most of the new blood here, but as said, 1CCing isn't a race, and the best games are worth savoring.

Even though cave alone could last you a lifetime, I highly, highly, recommend checking out some Psikyo, Raizing, Seibu, Toaplan, Compile, Takumi, Konami, Capcom, and others... It'll broaden your skills, variety is a great thing when it comes to shmups.

[XoPachi]

I must have really narrowed my interests to you guys. Sorry for poor clarity. So here's a list of the less impressive stuff I have 1CCed along with stuff I have if that's alright.
I have including the OP list, not including retro console emulation, Raiden Fighters Aces, Raiden 4, Gradius Collection, Gradius V, DFK (360 and phone), Bug Princess (phone), R-Type Dimensions, Ikaruga (GC and 360), Axelay (Wii), Phalanx (Wii and that shit is fun), Radio Allergy (Wii only one of the three games on disc I really like), Satazius (PC), Jamestown (PC), Ketsui (DS), Metal Torrent (3DS), Gradius III (Wii), Starfox, Starfox 64 (N64) Contra 1-3 (Wii 1&2 arcade 360), Contra 4.
The less impressive 1CC's, including retro emulation are Gradius (arcade and NES), Gradius 2 (arcade and NES), Gradius III (every SNES port all difficulties), Gradius Gaiden, Gradius V (normal), Zanac, Axelay, Space Megaforce, Super Nova, Satazius, DFK 360 (loop 1 Biaxe Strong), Bug Princess (Maniac phone), Starfox 64 (expert route), Starfox (normal), Starfox 2 (expert route), Contra 1-4.

I've seen a lot of games, but I just want to conquer the bad boys of the genre now. I'm by no means (I don't give a damn what my friends say) pro, but I'm lightly seasoned and breaded. :3
I will lurk and check out some of these other shooters. All of the Ones mention I have seen a great deal of and want, but MAME...is never agreeable. Dangun Feveron, and Mushi don't work. And I can't find ESPGaluda 1 anywhere.