Most Controversial Shmup?

Ramus · Post by **Ramus** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:42 pm

I'm going to say Blazing Star with the abortion clinic for a last level. Fighting an aborted fetus with a 50mm cannon for an arm is kinda sick.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:04 am

CMoon wrote: Not to start this again (or dehumanizing BulletMagnet), but honestly, if BG isn't newbie friendly than neither are MOST of the shmups coming out now. They all demand a high level of skill and understanding. Do you intuitively know how to combo, and even if you do 'understand it', can you be good at it without lots of practice and memorization. I think it is easier to dodge a power-up in BG than it is to correctly combo, get all the bees and get the star-carrier thing down simultaneously in DDP.

...

I think 1cc'ing a shmup in general is not a newbie option (maybe Shienryue explosions or Psyvariar?), but you can play well, have fun, and actually get quite far in BG without having any knowledge of the rank. Where is the 'no newbies allowed' option? I swear if you set up two cabs with BG and DDP side by side, you would see more novice players get farther in BG, period.

No, you're totally right - shmups are not an easy genre to get into. In order to please the dedicated players (and also because dedicated players are the only people who are likely to buy these games anymore) developers have to make shmups more and more complicated and difficult. Once in a while we get something that bucks the trend - Trizeal - but that didn't go over very well critically or financially, and it got mixed player reviews as well. (Like the game or not, you can't argue with the fact that it didn't do so well sales-wise.

)

And on a side note... do you really think Psyvariar 1 is that easy?

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:31 am

Psyvariar: Actually for both 1 & 2, if you purposely do not graze the bullets and do not level up your ship, always taking the easiest route, yes, they are both easy. I cc'd the first without even trying, and I know llabnip said similar things about the second. Some might argue this is not a true 1cc (I kinda agree, but it does make for a newbie friendly game.)

DDP vs. BG: Please show me the newbie that can 1cc DDP. At which point, I do not believe they are a newbie anymore. That's just the point. The newbie may well get smacked down in level two, and no doubt level 3. It isn't just play mechanics. Saying a very hard game is newbie friendly just isn't true.

What IS true is that the first 4 levels of BG are easier than the first 3 levels of DDP. Given that almost all newbies will ultimately credit feed till the end, BG makes for an easier, friendlier play.

Newbies are not interested in 1cc'ing a game, and to 1cc just about any shmup will require a deeper understanding of shmups than most of them posess.

Tate for experts: Hell yeah! Maybe our definition of 'newbie' is different, but very few people who've stuck in their first few shmups are rotating their tv, or have a dedicated tate tv. You crazy man!

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:09 am

BUHA wrote:

fi

I can't believe anybody can write that and be serious. IT'S A DAMN VIDEOGAME.

I say Garegga wins as the most controversial shmup![/quote]

uhm...

BUHA, notoriously a man of tolerance wrote: i don't understand how people can like this stuff for gays (referring to Border Down soundtrack

Maybe you should double-check what you write, you know, the byblical thingie about the ones without sins and blah blah
well, i also don't take you seriously...all that homophobia for a videogame?

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:54 am

I'm one of the people who bitched at Garegga.

My beef is not that it has rank, or that the rank control methods are unusual.

My beef is that it takes superhuman reflexes to 1 life clear that thing, even with rank control techs other than suiciding. I've yet to see any proof that it's ever been done. I feel that if it can't be one-life cleared by an expert player then it's not a legitimate game.

I have no quarrel with "extend and suicide" being a viable scoring strategy. I DO have a mild beef with it being the most viable strategy for clearing the game on one credit. and I have a major beef with the rank increasing to inhuman levels if intentional suicide is not practiced.

Apparently there's supposed to be a 1 life clear on an insanity replay dvd for garegga. I'll believe it when I see it.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:36 am

Hey "Rando"

Don't make up shit about what I said. Show me the thread where I said that. I NEVER said anything against gay people or the gay community. I DID say that the Border Down soundtrack sounds/is gay. That's just how I chose to describe it. Also, I have gay friends and have nothing against gay people. If anything, I feel it takes a lot of courage for them to come out and say that they are in fact gay, which is such a socially unnaceptable thing in most cases.

Like I said, don't make up shit about what I've posted. I know what I've posted. And I know what I believe. You don't have to try to get everybody against me just because you posted a bunch of stupid bullshit about some videogame that you're on the bottom of the high score list of. Maybe I should go check your ST so I can see how to get shitty scores on Battle Garegga!

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:54 am

BUHA wrote: Like I said, don't make up shit about what I've posted. I know what I've posted. And I know what I believe. You don't have to try to get everybody against me just because you posted a bunch of stupid bullshit about some videogame that you're on the bottom of the high score list of. Maybe I should go check your ST so I can see how to get shitty scores on Battle Garegga!

I don't care about "everybody" and what they do, but random quotes are questionable, especially when they're not the worst in a thread, my dear smart aleck homophobic friend. Beside that, i hope you're unaware of my best effort (posted on the defunct board) on Garegga. You should, however, read Icarus' ST if you want to learn how to score on the game, i never posted an ST on Garegga.Also poignant and to the point, i have to say

thesuperkillerxxx · Post by **thesuperkillerxxx** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:08 am

zaphod wrote:I feel that if it can't be one-life cleared by an expert player then it's not a legitimate game

NO NO NO

Sorry had to get that out.....

I have tried to explain the point of garegga many times... Take what you need, Use what you take.

Gritty realism is Battle Garegga... Quasi 194X setting, bombing the shit out of a despotic empiral force, an absolute fight to last man standing. A perfect tribute to WWII without an overt political agenda, a raw understanding that good will always triumph over evil. Many planes were lost in the great war, and all of them had a story to tell. A similar (yet grim, and I apologize) logic can be applied to each life lost in garegga, a means to a goal.

The Perfect Game

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:29 am

Say whatever you want, "Rando," I just don't like you making up quotes about me.

The quote I took from your post was illustrating the controversy that Battle Garegga stirred up. Since that's what the thread is about.

Your post about me, was made up, and had nothing to do with anything anyway.

So, I don't like random quotes, either.

And why don't you post your best effort, then? What's the point of putting a lower one? I don't get it.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:40 am

CMoon wrote:DDP vs. BG: Please show me the newbie that can 1cc DDP. At which point, I do not believe they are a newbie anymore. That's just the point. The newbie may well get smacked down in level two, and no doubt level 3. It isn't just play mechanics. Saying a very hard game is newbie friendly just isn't true.

Methinks we might be talking about two different kinds of "newbie-friendly" here: it seems that you're talking in terms of pure challenge, which DDp and Garegga both, of course, are not lacking. I'm talking more about accessibility, however, namely how easy it is for a newer player to understand and "get into" a game. If you're focusing purely on progress rather than score, DDP's relatively easy to get into, since outside of chaining and such the game is relatively uncomplicated; thus, a new player can more easily get a grasp on the basic gameplay and gradually refine it and get farther.

Garegga, on the other hand, takes a lot more effort to understand: before you even begin playing you'll have to read an FAQ or the like to figure out how the rank system works, and perhaps watch a superplay to see where all the hidden stuff is. From there you have to not only get familiar with stuff in the game, but also with how higher and lower rank affects everything therein; once you've done that, you need to learn how to both score well and keep your powerups, reserve lives, and bombs to a minimum to keep the rank down, not to mention play well enough to survive on such low provisions. A first-time Garegga player might get farther than a first-time DDP player, but the latter will have a grip on what's going on much sooner than the former. Learning Garegga takes a lot more time and effort; it's not as immediately accessible as most other shmups. That's what I meant.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:55 am

Well I suck, but all this talk of Garegga persuaded me to fire it up last night and I reached the fourth round boss-fest after an hours play, (using the fourth craft, which quickly emerged as my favorite for whatever reason), which I was quite pleased with. I took absolutely no notice of rank, picked up anything and everything I could grab, and had a thoroughly good time with a game that I'd previously dismissed. I've found a new favorite, so thanks to all involved I guess

I think the entire rank thing is overstated, if you enjoy the game then just play it for fuck's sake. Maybe I will never reach the fabled 1'cc, but you know what? I don't give a shit. I'm having more fun playing the game as I find it than I would 'training' myself to play a shooter in a way that goes against every instinct I have, so I'll keep plugging away until I've had enough. Bottom line - I'm having fun. I don't mind l'learning' games as such, DDP's chaining becomes a natural part of play after a time as I can see the constant possibilities lining themselves up in front of me, but to start avoiding power-up's and suiciding? Not for me thanks, too much like homework. If that's your thing then cool, go for it, but damn there is some eliteist bullshit being spoken about this title. It's a video game for god's sake!

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:58 am

I don't understand, BulletMagnet. What makes you think a newbie can do well at any shooter? Garegga is a difficult game obviously, as long as you choose to play on one credit. Credit-feed it and it's as easy as any other shooter, and as accessible as any other shooter.

I hope you realize that you're just starting another idiotic thread on Garegga. Your argument is pretty simple when you take away the lengthy paragraphs: "Garegga is too hard for me waaa." Sorry, that's just how I see it.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:38 am

I think DDP is more newbie friendly than Garegga because it's much more upfront about what has to be done to beat the game. Neither game is easy, but one is much easier to figure out.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:40 am

why hello there.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:58 am

Buha wrote:Your post about me, was made up, and had nothing to do with anything anyway.

"Oh, i have nothing against gays, it's just that i like to use the word as an insult...is there a causal relationship between the two things?Nahhh.Beside that, gay-bashing is in, idiots-bashing is out!".

Btw, the thread is about the most controversial shmup, not Garegga...on the other hand, if Garegga's name alone evokes past flames, it must be controversial

At any case: Garegga proposes a bottle neck at the penultimate stage (stage 6), as you need to understand how to manipulate rank in order to pass it, DDP has this bottle-neck on stage 5 (which is also the penultimate), but it's more about sheer pattern-manipulation, so to speak. Newbie-friendly...i don't know, i wouldn't call the overall period as "newbie-friendly" (i.e. 1996-1998, or in general the phase with complex engines), and maybe the return to more immediate engines (Giga Wing, Psyvariar,etc) was a cause of this "elitist" approach.

Beside that, 1 crediting a shmup is usually a difficult task, i think this must be stressed a bit. Only recent games, the "new minimalism" ones, tend to be doable by everyone.I suppose there is a reason behind this, namely that the casual player, at some point, was avoiding a genre made of fiendish challenges. The whole idea of using bullets against the enemy (or for scoring purposes) is a bit controversial, i think, but it also has helped to make many new games more enjoyable. I also think that DOJ is actually a controversial game, as it has the most anal chaining system ever...in DDP, if you understand a bit the system, you can also learn to chain by yourself, the only problems are the lulls (i.e. the zones in which you need to keep the chain going because there are few enemies around). in DOJ, you're completely cut off scoring if you're not a good chainer already...

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:17 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: Methinks we might be talking about two different kinds of "newbie-friendly" here: it seems that you're talking in terms of pure challenge, which DDp and Garegga both, of course, are not lacking. I'm talking more about accessibility, however, namely how easy it is for a newer player to understand and "get into" a game. If you're focusing purely on progress rather than score, DDP's relatively easy to get into, since outside of chaining and such the game is relatively uncomplicated; thus, a new player can more easily get a grasp on the basic gameplay and gradually refine it and get farther.

Garegga, on the other hand, takes a lot more effort to understand: before you even begin playing you'll have to read an FAQ or the like to figure out how the rank system works, and perhaps watch a superplay to see where all the hidden stuff is. From there you have to not only get familiar with stuff in the game, but also with how higher and lower rank affects everything therein; once you've done that, you need to learn how to both score well and keep your powerups, reserve lives, and bombs to a minimum to keep the rank down, not to mention play well enough to survive on such low provisions. A first-time Garegga player might get farther than a first-time DDP player, but the latter will have a grip on what's going on much sooner than the former. Learning Garegga takes a lot more time and effort; it's not as immediately accessible as most other shmups. That's what I meant.

I agree, it's not obviously apparent what needs to be done in garegga, where as DDP is straight to the point with no hidden forces working against you.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:08 pm

mannerbot wrote:I hope you realize that you're just starting another idiotic thread on Garegga. Your argument is pretty simple when you take away the lengthy paragraphs: "Garegga is too hard for me waaa." Sorry, that's just how I see it.

freddie bamboo and sethsez sort of summed up what I said, maybe they phrased it a bit more clearly than I did.

And honestly, insinuating that Garegga is too hard for me? Please. Anyone here who knows me well enough realizes that EVERY shmup is too hard for me! Waaa!

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:26 pm

No, I'm not saying that BulletMagnet. You seem to take sarcasm pretty well so hopefully you weren't offended by my post, but it just seems like you start all these flamewars about Garegga because it is such a difficult game, when really the genre itself is difficult. Why not the same posts about other unorthodox shooters like Radiant Silvergun, Soukyugurentai, or ESPGaluda, for example? I mean, ESPGaluda is supposedly the most accessible of Cave's works, but can you tell me exactly what's needed to do well in the game?

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:27 pm

And come on. Is Dai-Ou-Jou more newb-friendly just because rather than forcing you to suicide, it kills you itself?

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:38 pm

To Rando + Buha: you kids stop fighting this instant or I'm pulling the car over. We're not having another Garegga Flame War in this thread.

To Elixir: I'm sorry, but only an idiot would think that. If anyone understood the nature of Yin/Yang or Positive/Negative Karma/Chi they'd know it has nothing to do with Racism. Ikaruga is about religious dominance in war anyway... I looked up Metampsychosis in the dictionary a while ago and it means literally "Reincarnation", not to mention the Sanscrit written at the bottom of the Butsutekkai Warning is a prayer for safety.

For me, however, I say the symbolism in the Parodius games is controversial.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:39 pm

Right, and Marc and Mannerbot kinda summed up exactly what I was saying.

I think you DO make this into a bigger point than it is; there are people who will never realize that anyone can sit down and play garegga and have fun with it (more fun than casually sitting down and playing DDP), because of all these threads about how unfair and unintuitive BG is. Ultimately every thread I've read about this seems to equate to whining or quibbling. Why not whine about the even more unintuitive Souky where you shouldn't even bother firing. Why not whine about rank control in a dozen other games (there are quite a few shmups where you should never power up completely--or hell, what about what taking missles does to rank in gradius v?) BG may truly be twisted, but it really doesn't hamper gameplay unless you ARE a seasoned shmupper going for the 1cc (in which case, I think it is all fair anyway). For the newbie or even average shmupper, these are non-issues that I feel like you continue to exagerate as though the game was not fun, or was non-playable in some way...

...and that is just where your argument falls apart. Unless you are willing to put dozens of hours into your game, BG is more fun and more playable than DDP; a point few people take into account.

You have proven one thing though--BG has become one of the most controversial shooters as more users on this board have begun to complain about rank. Two years ago, I never heard anyoen ever complain about BG; it was always held in high regard.

I really feel it is the super plays that did it, and the belief from many shmup players that the whole point of the game is the coveted 1cc. Perhaps you should forget about that and just start having fun playing the games--for instance you say your skill is more mediocre (like me)--so why are you worrying about suiciding or whatever. Pick Golden bat and have fun blowing shit up in the first 4 levels--which is as good as my skill is going to allow REGARDLESS of whatever kind of rank management I use.

So it seems like your problem with this game is an academic one. It isn't like it actually affects you, but you just don't like the idea of it.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:41 pm

People always complained about BG. The topic just used to be invisible bullets instead of rank.

And I didn't like the missle thing in Gradius V either, but then again I don't like Gradius V period (not a Treasure fan).

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:43 pm

Blade wrote: To Elixir: I'm sorry, but only an idiot would think that. If anyone understood the nature of Yin/Yang or Positive/Negative Karma/Chi they'd know it has nothing to do with Racism.

Ikaruga would have been racist if when you were black you only got half the amount of points as when your were white, your hit box got larger, and even when you got all the chains correctly, some 'white' ship would come along and get all the credit

Alske · Post by **Alske** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:48 pm

mannerbot wrote:And come on. Is Dai-Ou-Jou more newb-friendly just because rather than forcing you to suicide, it kills you itself?

Yes. Yes, it is.

Daioujou tells you what patterns you need to get better by killing you. Rank is not a big factor in the game.

However, being stuck at a boss in Battle Garegga or Soukyugurentai is not necessarily an issue with one's own lack of skill; it may be rank. Rank manipulation techniques are not obvious to a player that hasn't manipulated rank before, thus being stuck at a spot in Garegga can be incredibly frustrating. It becomes obvious that practice is proving ineffective, and to a player unfamiliar with rank: if practice doesn't make perfect, what does?

I stopped playing Soukyugurentai back in 2000 because I didn't know what rank was, and it was killing me. Level 3 boss, the tank, I'd almost always get there with the maximum attainable rank at the time and he'd tear me apart, no matter how much I practiced. I certainly didn't think that not collecting power-ups would make him EASIER.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:49 pm

Most:Dangun Feveron
Least:Harmful Park

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:52 pm

sethsez wrote:People always complained about BG. The topic just used to be invisible bullets instead of rank.

And I didn't like the missle thing in Gradius V either, but then again I don't like Gradius V period (not a Treasure fan).

Right. Users on this board did not used to whine about rank. And of course they always complained about the realistic bullets which is only parly resolved by the red ball option. I'm more than happy to acknowlede that, but rank whining is new, and it is pretty absurd because almost all shmups have rank, and many affect game play more immediately than BG. Border Down for instance hits you with rank by the second level and more average players may even chose to suicide before the end of level 1 to keep from experiencing this rank.

Really the question to those who whine about the rank in BG; do you find the game fun? I guess if you don't, then don't play it. I don't play much of DOJ because I find it too hard. I would even say, for me, it isn't fun. That is why I play these games afterall, to have fun--not to be punished on level 1.

If BG wasn't a fun, enjoyable game I guess I'd hear this, but I don't because for the average player, there is a lot more fun to be had here than the standard cave fare.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:57 pm

I remember Donpachi causing some contraversy a while back.

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:18 pm

CMoon wrote:If BG wasn't a fun, enjoyable game I guess I'd hear this

AGREE AGREE AGREE

Also no more posts on this from me because it's been beaten to death and really, no one cares.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:33 pm

Alske wrote:Daioujou tells you what patterns you need to get better by killing you. Rank is not a big factor in the game.

*cough* Excuse me?

Rank is far more vicious in Daioujou than it ever is in Garegga, due to the fact that in Daioujou, the game swarms you with bullets from the get-go. And if you're a score-based player - one who can get Hypers regularly - then the game will kick it up a few hundred notches long before you see stage 4.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:39 pm

Sethsez wrote: And I didn't like the missle thing in Gradius V either, but then again I don't like Gradius V period (not a Treasure fan).

Ahem, ALL Gradius games have rank increase triggered by missiles, it's just that in V it becomes blatant.

Also:

Alske wrote:
Daioujou tells you what patterns you need to get better by killing you. Rank is not a big factor in the game

Ehr, no, hyper usage makes the rank go crazy, and in a pretty extreme way. You can't use bombs without using hypers, so you will use an hyper to cover your butt (rank increase) and finally bomb when hypers are finished (rank decrease, deaths also decrease rank).

Alske wrote: It becomes obvious that practice is proving ineffective

practice is always ineffective if you don't understand what to do.Learning by heart a sequence without understanding is pointless and harmful, among other things. True, you can learn (for instance) how to do triple somersaults without having a grasp of the physics behind it.Videogames, since they're games to start with, have rules, and most of the job comes from understanding how to solve the puzzle, given the rules. Obvious protest: "but i don't get the rules when i get the game!", which is untrue: you get them, but they're usually in Japanese (ehr, until we speak of ports, anyway).

Now, again, if someone is intentionally stubborn and wants to ignore that a game has a mechanic that will make survival impossible if not dealt with (and we're not speaking of rank only:if the game is time-based, you have to clear the stage before the time runs out), it's his own fault.Do i need to explain why,again?

It's also worth of note that, most of the time, people bitch about rank without thinking that rank, most of the times, increases difficulty: since we're speaking of Garegga, again, well: the sixth stage is difficult regardless of the rank level, because it's the sixth stage. What do you want, a game with one bullet per hour? If someone has an idea of fun which is based on having an overpowered ship and enemies waiting to be slaughtered, i consider him an idiot, because there is no intellectual challenge behind such a game.

Beside that, why no one bitches about Raiden DX? Ohhh the toothpaste laser!Nice, and how about the stupidly slow ships and the stupidly fast bullets? also, how the fuck am i supposed to discover the conditions for the golden pyramids in the training mode? How the fuck am i supposed to know how and when point-blank enemies? And do you know that Raiden DX's difficulty SKY-ROCKETS if you powe-up?Etc etc etc...

Truth is, 90% of shmups would cause silly controversies, if John shmupoe ( i hope the joke is right) would know how to effectively exploit them. The other 10% are whack-a-mole stuff, and even whack-a-mole stuff requires some method: if you don't want method in your games, why you play games in the first place? On the other hand, if it's too much method to handle, just find a game with less method.

I mean, Go has three rules, why the fuck you keep playing chess?