Companies that are falling apart, or have fallen apart

[E. Randy Dupre]

Castlevania Rebirth was traditional Castlevania. Was that not developed in-house?

[Ghegs]

Castlevania Rebirth was traditional Castlevania. Was that not developed in-house?

Nope, the Rebirth games have been developed by M2.

[Paradigm]

i just remember to have liked sotn's atmosphere much more

Agreed. The atmosphere, characters, visuals, music, level design - it's all there. The handheld Metroidvania's are all good games, but SotN is a masterpiece where everything just clicks in to place as it should.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Huh? CotM is the one handheld game that's SLOWER than SotN. I love it for it, though. It's not really a SotN-like, even though it appears so. It's more like a classic Castlevania, and the class system makes for great replayability (playing as a thief is awesome).

Er... Drunk post ahead, so bear with me. I played both (still haven't finished CotM) with a DualShock 2 (GBA SP is a bit narrow for my large hands) and after StoN's Richter, the CotM's dude played just dreamy. The game felt less bullshity and I disagree about CotM being all that different (it's more of a handheld game and that's it).
There was less of those "fuck it, switching the fucker off, going to play something else" moments. My only complaint, gameplay-wise, is the slowdown.
SotN had some contaminations slowing the hell out of it for me (the aforementioned moves) CotM doesn't seem to have hus far.
CotM is a damn fine Metroidvania through and through. "Classic Castlevania" is a linear platformer with somewhat rigid controls to me, which is not how I'd describe CotM. There's still the matter of aesthetics, but discussing it would be quite off-topic here.

[Drum]

Aria and Dawn of Sorrow/Order of Ecclesia are easily better games than Symphony in most of the most important ways. Symphony being the best Metroidvania is a claim often made, never substantiated. You could be the first!

i'd have to replay sotn and dawn of sorrow first to elaborate on that. i just remember to have liked sotn's atmosphere much more and that i liked how the game flowed thanks to multi directional attacks. the other game's feel stiff as stone in comparison.

I agree with atmosphere - SotN has so many great touches that shame the others. SotN does have a better general combat, but apart from Order of Ecclesia the other ones aren't really trying to do that. Order of Ecclesia has better combat than SotN tho.

[CMoon]

Since this is now officially a Castlevania thread, I also want to support the notion of SotN being the best of the lot, though OoE had something nice going on. I may be mistaken here, but I feel like SotN had more secrets and a greater variety of weapons, armor, spells and monsters. Figuring out the whole shield rod thing for instance was something I ultimately learned on gamefaqs. I don't remember if it actually told you what some of the spells were, or you just had to figure them out street fighter style. Unlockable characters and of course the now famous upsidedown castle. Each of the following castlevanias had their gimmicks, and some of them worked really well, but I just don't feel any of them gelled quite as well as SotN.

Plus, don't forget that opening monologue...

[Skykid]

Since this is now officially a Castlevania thread, I also want to support the notion of SotN being the best of the lot, though OoE had something nice going on.

OOE has a few nice things going on actually, although I wouldn't say it was massively superior to the GBA Metroidvania's, just better in certain aspects, worse in others. It's not better than SOTN though, no wayz. It doesn't have the scale or the accomplished atmosphere/style that still makes SOTN the cream.

[Moniker]

O yeah, Konami also recently made/published/whatevered 3 retro Contra games: Contra 4, Rebirth, and the greatness that is Hard Corps: Uprising.

Back on topic, the only thing I don't really like about SOTN is that elements do get obscure. I get stuck now and then with no idea where to go, or what a bunch of crap I have does. Sort of hearkens back to Simon's Quest in a way. I don't think I ever consulted walkthroughs with the handheld games.

[Skykid]

Hard Corps: Uprising.

That mess was all Arc System's fault afaik. Konami did themselves a disservice publishing it.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

CoTM is so much better than SoTN that it's almost obsolete in comparison. Production values are the only thing SoTN has over it. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's so good that every Castlevania after is not worth bothering with either.

[Skykid]

CoTM is so much better than SoTN that it's almost obsolete in comparison. Production values are the only thing SoTN has over it. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's so good that every Castlevania after is not worth bothering with either.

I do really like CoTM too, probably the best of the GBA bunch.

They're all good games tho. If one is better than another by anything it's usually only marginal. Only PoR and perhaps HoD were slightly underwhelming, but even then perfectly playable. SOTN's production values help a lot in a game of this kind imo.

[Sumez]

Er... Drunk post ahead, so bear with me. I played both (still haven't finished CotM) with a DualShock 2 (GBA SP is a bit narrow for my large hands) and after StoN's Richter, the CotM's dude played just dreamy. The game felt less bullshity and I disagree about CotM being all that different (it's more of a handheld game and that's it).

Well, first of all, playing as Richter obviously doesn't count, that was just a throwback to the previous game(s). Alucard is just as fast as Nathan, but CotM has tougher enemies and slower progression (especially on successive playthroughs where you die extremely easily), where SotN allows you to breeze through most parts.

Also, CotM is a lot more linear than SotN. It's bassically a (relatively) small number of areas played in succession, each ending with a "key" that allows you to access the next specific area, typically in the form of a new move, resulting in it being an extremely linear game (like classic CV), disguised as a "metroidvania". SotN, on the other hand, allows you to go several different places and approach most areas in different ways. The inverted castle itself is 100% open ended, allowing you to choose in what order to take on the various bosses.

[Sumez]

I do really like CoTM too, probably the best of the GBA bunch.

I agree with atmosphere - SotN has so many great touches that shame the others. SotN does have a better general combat, but apart from Order of Ecclesia the other ones aren't really trying to do that. Order of Ecclesia has better combat than SotN tho.

Totally agreed on those.
It's been a long while since I played most of the handhelds, but I'd say my top 3 of the Metroidvanias probably goes like this:

1. Symphony of the Night
2. Order of Ecclesia
3. Circle of the Moon

The Soma games and Portrait of Ruin are all good too, though, they all had some good ideas. Harmony of Dissonance was just a big misstep from Konami. I was thrilled when I first got it, because we hadn't had any truly nonlinear CV games since SotN, but the game was just so ridicolously easy and pointless, and even looked like crap compared to CotM (I guess in an attempt to make it more visible on the non-lit GBA screen). Actually, even the music was TERRIBLE, despite Yamane returning to the series.
CotM, however, has grown a lot on me, and is probably the one (apart from SotN) that I replayd the most. It is also the only one of them where replaying the game using the unlocked passwords actually opens up new and extremely interesting aspects of the game, as opposed to being a gimmick thing.

[Skykid]

Actually, even the music was TERRIBLE, despite Yamane returning to the series.

That was probably the most unforgivable aspect of it, but some of the map layout was broken beyond belief. Some of the pointless and lengthy A-B backtracking in that game (specifically in one of the underground sections) really cemented the fact that something wasn't right in the production process.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I do really like CoTM too, probably the best of the GBA bunch.

They're all good games tho. If one is better than another by anything it's usually only marginal. Only PoR and perhaps HoD were slightly underwhelming, but even then perfectly playable.

I would elaborate on why I put CoTM so much higher above the rest, but I think Sumez already did for me. It's amazing how well it blended the old elements with new and because of that, made the RPG mechanics more relevant. It's disappointing for me that no other Castlevania since has been able to replicate that as well. Not even OoE, which managed to disappoint me the most with it's terrible level design.

[Drum]

I do really like CoTM too, probably the best of the GBA bunch.

They're all good games tho. If one is better than another by anything it's usually only marginal. Only PoR and perhaps HoD were slightly underwhelming, but even then perfectly playable.

I would elaborate on why I put CoTM so much higher above the rest, but I think Sumez already did for me. It's amazing how well it blended the old elements with new and because of that, made the RPG mechanics more relevant. It's disappointing for me that no other Castlevania since has been able to replicate that as well. Not even OoE, which managed to disappoint me the most with it's terrible level design.

While OoE does have bad level design, Circle of the Moon's is worse. Weird as shit to see so many people speaking so highly of that game. It's not bad, but ...

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

CoTM level design bad? how? all the major areas are incredibly busy and the enemy placements are well-thought out, making them tough to deal with even without the threat of being knocked into bottomless pits.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Also, CotM is a lot more linear than SotN. It's bassically a (relatively) small number of areas played in succession, each ending with a "key" that allows you to access the next specific area, typically in the form of a new move, resulting in it being an extremely linear game (like classic CV), disguised as a "metroidvania".

Dude, no. A linear platformer has got levels or worlds like Super Mario Bros. (in case of classic Castlevanias - and so many other games - typically ending with a boss). Old Castlevanias (most of them) were like it, whereas in CotM you get a new ability and are supposed to go back to some place where you can use it, Super Metroid way.

[evil_ash_xero]

Why in the world are we so fixated on Castlevania?

We got companies to discuss!

Ah well.

[Obiwanshinobi]

"Let's live here together" she says.

[Domino]

I don't think any company is falling apart. I think the market has change to the point you either like it or not.

Capcom-I love the arcade Capcom stuff on their CPS1 and CPS2 hardware. When I play a CPS2 with the gorgeous Capcom artwork and Q-Sound I get a little giddy over it. I just love the sprites in those games. Before MvC3 I usually say that maybe MvC2 might be a better game than MvC1, but MvC1 wasn't a copy-paste job like MvC2 to me was. The backgrounds were new, good remixes in music, and I love the Capcom artwork in the game. MvC1 to me has more style and personalty than MvC2. When they started to focus on consoles more than arcades in the early 2000s is when I lose interest in the company. When CvS2, and MvC2 came out on the Naomi, I notice a change with Capcom. They focus a lot on the artwork, music, and other stuff that makes Capcom, well Capcom. While both games were fun to play, the production quality to me were crap.

Konami: More of a fan of their late-80s to mid-90s output. Didn't care too much after that. MGS1 set the tone of what Konami will do in the future.

SNK: Awesome until the original company went out of business. Their music team is AMAZING. Loved KOF until 2000. SNK games had a different vibe from Capcom games but still great never the less.

Taito: Loved their arcade output until they scaled back their arcade division in the late 90s. Except for their rail shooter Night Striker, their 80s shmups were shit. At the start of the 90s they hit gold with Gun Frontier. Always like ZUNTATA 90s OST output here.

I guess I like those 90s sprites.

[Sumez]

Dude, no. A linear platformer has got levels or worlds like Super Mario Bros. (in case of classic Castlevanias - and so many other games - typically ending with a boss). Old Castlevanias (most of them) were like it, whereas in CotM you get a new ability and are supposed to go back to some place where you can use it, Super Metroid way.

There's hardly ANY backtracking in COTM, I think the only amount of it I even did was to farm drops on later classes. Comparing it to Super Metroid must be an act of insanity, or you're still drunk posting. Super Metroid's map design and open approach to progression was, and is still, incredible.

Really, I love COTM, but it's very linear, except from the fact that instead of moving on to the next level automatically, you just go to another place in the castle.

[Sumez]

MGS1 set the tone of what Konami will do in the future.

I wish! Dance Dance Revolution set the tone of what Konami will do in the future.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There's hardly ANY backtracking in COTM, I think the only amount of it I even did was to farm drops on later classes.

At the bottom of the shaft at the beginning, you can either go left and reach a point you can't pass through just yet, or go right and get something that'll let you progress past that point. Going back to make use of your new ability is what I call backtracking. It's a game largely about finding keys in one place to use them somewhere else and that's a metroidvania trait. Maybe it can be played through in a linear fashion if you already know the castle's layout, but it is not a necessity.
The area feels more compact than in Super Metroid or SotN and getting from one savepoint to another takes usually less time, because it is a handheld game and must be playable to completion in small chunks.

[Sumez]

Well, you play the first area, beat the boss, then "backtrack" to the next area, beat the boss there, "backtrack" to yet another area, beat the boss there, repeat, etc.
The thing is exactly what you said - you can go left, but it will only take you to a point where you can't go. A true metroidvania will allow you to go both directions and find something both places - Super Metroid especially excels at this, and I don't think I've ever played two playthroughs that were the same, always ending up in odd new places.

[Obiwanshinobi]

To me SotN didn't feel as expansive and non-linear as Super Metroid either (the former cuts corners with its portals). The size of it may be comparable, but the structure isn't quite as clever (both are sometimes too clever for their own good and I don't think it's a coincidence that Super Metroid wasn't a huge success in Japan, where it came out without a guide).
I'd say if Ico is Another World done well (in terms of the puzzles), CotM is SotN done well and redesigned for a handheld.

[Sumez]

Obviously, none of the CV games are truly comparable to Super Metroid when it comes to exploration, IMO. I don't think any games are. That game really did something unique. And I don't think anyone should ever use a guide for it.

[Moniker]

Obviously, none of the CV games are truly comparable to Super Metroid when it comes to exploration, IMO. I don't think any games are. That game really did something unique. And I don't think anyone should ever use a guide for it.

The only thing about Super Metroid that I feel hasn't aged well are the controls, which feel floaty, and shooting diagonally is a bit sloppy. Not to mention the frustrating insanity that is walljumping. The GBA metroids improved these elements but didn't really match up to the experience otherwise. Zero Mission came close, but was a tad easy (though not nearly as easy as fusion) -- I've yet to do a playthrough on hard mode, though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Super Metroid's wall jumping is a masterpiece. Unlike in many other platformers, it's all about being able to climb a single wall this way here. I used to think wall jumping sucked in this game, but once somebody's explanation on certain forum clarified the mechanics for me, it had clicked. If you can't get the hang of it, you're probably doing it wrong.
The only aspect of the controls I have a beef with is the grappling hook (too stiff). Ninja Five-O coupled Super Metroid-esque wall jumping with superior grappling hook mechanics.
Also, I feel that Super Metroid controls have outgrown SNES controller. With a DualShock 2 (properly configured) the lot makes more sense than with the default button layout.

[replayme]

even though this thread has been derailed somewhat... what i'd like to know is whether Lords of Shadow (ps3) is worth getting. surely it can't be that bad for a tenner, can it? or are there better (non-castlevania) alternatives?