Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

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RNGmaster
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by RNGmaster »

Kollision wrote: I see gameplay as being comprised by (1) enemy placement, (2) obstacles and (3) enemy bullets. The influence from enemy placement is different from the influence posed by walls and such, which appear more frequently in horis. The kind of challenge in DDP is a lot different from, let's say, Ikaruga. DDP allows for more freedom, even if it demands more herding, fast kills, etc. Ikaruga is just balls claustrophonic in parts, and exactly due to physical, indestructible obstacles, which are totally absent from DDP.
Walls and bullets can both be collided with to injurious effect. In my mind, dodging a stream of bullets being shot by a group of popcorns is similar to navigating a tight course in R-Type or some other hori. The only difference is the that the walls are always static, whereas the bullet formations change in respect to where the enemies appear (and considering that if one keeps to a consistent route as PROMETHEUS recommends, bullets will be in the same place every time, thus acting even more like statically-placed walls).

Basically, a wall of bullets acts the same way as a wall in Gradius, and impassable walls of both kinds are to be avoided when designing levels. By placing enemies correctly (not to mention syncing them with the background - ground enemies can't walk over cliffs, and water enemies can't go on land or in the sky), you are essentially determining where the walls will appear. Correct placement of enemies can result in claustrophobic bullet flows with much the same effect as walls in Ikaruga. (See Stage 2-5 of DOJ, at the honeycomb section at 1:13, for an example)
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ChainsawGuitarSP
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

>Enemy attacks
>Level design

That's it, I give up.
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RNGmaster
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by RNGmaster »

ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:>Enemy attacks
>Level design

That's it, I give up.
No, no, keep going. if you're so convinced that you're right, go ahead and refute my argument.
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Deca
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by Deca »

ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:Also, I love how people who disagree with me give absolutely no reason as to why I'm wrong. Classy.
ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:>Enemy attacks
>Level design

That's it, I give up.
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ChainsawGuitarSP
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

I already explained that enemy placement isn't level design by virtue that they're different from obstacles. How can I explain it any clearer? do I have to draw out a picture?
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ptoing
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by ptoing »

Enemies are still part of the level and thus are a part of level design. Simple as that.

Here is a little equation

Level Design = (All the stuff that you put in a level)
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Deca
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by Deca »

ChainsawGuitarSP wrote:I already explained that enemy placement isn't level design by virtue that they're different from obstacles. How can I explain it any clearer? do I have to draw out a picture?
Unless you're playing something like Mars Matrix, any flying enemies (though sometimes ground enemies as well) are most certainly obstacles.

I'm legitimately baffled by your claim that enemies are not a part of stage design. You're saying that Border Down would be just as good if the enemies were completely randomly generated and tossed at you without any consistency or planning, because they don't factor into stage design and shouldn't be taken into consideration?

I know you think we're all ganging up on you and just being jerks but seriously, the things you're saying really don't make sense and we are genuinely confused by your views.
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RNGmaster
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by RNGmaster »

I explained as clearly as I physically could that:
-Enemies create obstacles (bullets) that can be collided with in the same way as walls
-The manner in which these enemies are placed, as well as the player's position in relation to them, determines where these walls will come out
-Enemies must not be placed in a way that interferes with the background layout (e.g. tanks cannot go over a cliff without suffering ill effect)
-Positioning of enemies can create novel situations, as I said earlier:
RNGmaster wrote:(See Stage 2-5 of DOJ, at the honeycomb section at 1:13, for an example)
Think of enemies that shoot bullets as wall-factories. If they're placed poorly, they may be hard to get to/kill, and the walls they create will keep going for a while and make it hard to dodge. In a game that has good level design, enemies will always be placed in ways that make sense from a dodging point of view and don't create cheap shots. (Think of the sniper tanks in Raiden. That's annoying enemy placement, and it's certainly bad level design too).
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ChainsawGuitarSP
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

-Except any bullet patterns that give you ire can easily be cleaned away with a bomb. With the levels themselves, you have to learn to bypass any obstacles standing in your way in order to progress.
-"Walls" assuming you're playing a bullet hell. Not all verts are a bullet hell, so I don't know why bullets would suddenly count as an obstacle if they're in great numbers.
-Exactly why I consider enemy placement and level design separately; enemy placement is usually done after the level is finished drawn out. That's why you never get enemies swarming you from behind while your ass is stuck in a tunnel unless your ship has the ability to fire behind.
tizerist
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by tizerist »

Horizontal.
I dunno, I just think it looks cooler. Maybe something to do with being able to see more of the immediate environment around your ship. I think the widescreen nature of TV's / monitor's lends itself to hori more.

Vertical, I still like it, but mainly only 194x series, or Strikers series. I feel the topdown view is better for wartime shooters. You can really see the details of cool stuff like jungles, warships and barracks. I wouldn't play a wartime hori, cause you lose that element.
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Re: Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

Post by Sumez »

tizerist wrote: I wouldn't play a wartime hori, cause you lose that element.
Progear is ready to make you eat your words!
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