Anyone else feeling the Daifukkatsu meh?

[Skykid]

your post.

Why?

I don't understand this much dude, did you read through this thread? It's not about DOJ. It's quite clear how many people are feeling the Daifukkatsu meh, and that's got nothing to do with anything except DFK.
I love DOJ, but I've openly stated I can't chain the game either! I sympathise with people who find it difficult, because it is. I may have suggested "sticking with it" and hailing it as one of my all time favourite games, but I don't go around suggesting you're a twat if you can't hold a stage long chain. I'm sure I have a thread on AO called "DOJ: I love the way it rapes me" - I'm not sure how that suggests that it's great because I'm great at it and you all suck if you can't play it.
My signature banner is a declaration of its overbearing shmup manliness is all.

I suspect that regardless of what arguments you make, good points or not, you could never love DFK simply because it's not DOJ.

Aww, that's just silly now. I might be a huge fan of DOJ but I'm a huge fan of many shmups of all different guises, from Skonec to NMK to Hudson and everything in-between. Nothing plays like DOJ yet I've committed myself to learning and enjoying the hell out of all different kinds of games, shmup or otherwise.
I'm hoping it's not impossible to accept that I'm not a fan of DFK because I'm not a huge fan of DFK. I don't want it to be like any other game, that's boring. Akai Katana ain't much like DOJ either, but I dig that.

I'm not comparing DFK with DOJ as the reason for me not clicking with DFK. I click with Futari more than DFK, Deathsmiles more than DFK - and they're two games I'm pretty tired of.

Give me a break damnit. Don't persecute the DOJ evangelist.

[8 1/2]

I came in from the DOJ school of hard knocks, having bloodied my knuckles on that game for months to irk out a measly 100,000,000 average score. I can't even imagine what the real number of times I've played 1-1 in that game to be.

So, given that trauma,

Wow, someone seems to be forgetting why they are playing games in the first place - enjoyment.

If a games not fun, fuck it, play something else.

Chaining will never be fun, its repetitive and boring, and borders on having to be autistic or OCD ridden to bother.

Oh, but it IS fun to me. That's why I love DOJ. She's such a brutal dominatrix of a game.

[Emuser]

To show my two bits since I see all the activity in the high score board(a majority of all the DFK activity in the first place). I will be talking only about 1.5 since that is the only version I've played.

When I first saw videos of DFK when it was initally released in arcades I drooled at how awesome it looked but couldn't do anything to play it. Luckily my arcade got the game a year and a a half ago and I went apeshit insane on it. I had begun to accept how I might not ever get to play it at all but the arcade completely took me by surprise.

I loved this game the moment I played it. This is an immensely satisfying game if one manages to do good chains and get 100 Bil on 1.5. That is without saying that this game still bugged me a little bit though.

After a while of playing a couple of flaws I see in DFK began to show light, but they still aren't overbearing to where I can't play the game anymore. The main one involves the autobomb, I do wish that they didn't have an autobomb in 1.5, if they had an on/off option that would have made people MUCH happier overall I think, or at least if autobomb took away the remaining bomb stock. It's a hard feeling to describe when you've played all the other Dodonpachi games and then you get to this, and you might begin to think "well the worst that could happen is an autobomb right here..." vs. "holy shit do I bomb and guarantee losing my combo or do I not and risk dying?" Some of the adrenaline factor is lost with this game compared to the other games. I understand Cave wanted to try and balance things and bring in more people, but they should have done so by giving the players options, not toning things down and forcing things such as autobomb on us that cannot be turned off.

The loli factor with the bosses did make the game lose a few points, but I've played the game so long now that nothing phases me at all with them anymore. I am more used to the completely silent and intimidating bosses from previous games that I know many people seem to love over constantly talking/noise making lolis. Anyone who may have seen/tried milking of the stage 3 boss knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If someone cannot stand these lolis then the game will be gone to them after a few playthroughs.

That being said, I still play this game several times whenever I visit the arcade, I love it to death and can probably do a few stages in my sleep at this point, but it's not perfect and not for everyone if they aren't willing to take the time to learn the more technical parts of the game.

P.S. For those who play the game, practice the ever-loving FUCK out of stage 5. If you do a really good chain on stage 5, you can net more points from that stage alone than you could the first 4 stages combined. The first 4 stages are like icing on the cake to stage 5.

[spadgy]

You sir are charged with showing me what I'm missing on this game next Saturday. I'll have it all set up for you and I'll have a notepad ready. If anyone can reveal the beauty of DFK, it's you and your mad scoring.

You're going to take notes on someone playing a video game you don't like

I'm going to take notes on Skykid taking notes. Seriously though, watching somebody else play over their shoulder is a great learning experience. One small part of why I'd always try and play at a real arcade and get some of my PCB's installed there.

On topic, after just a few hours I bloody love DFK, for most of the reasons Icarus details.

I admit it doesn't quite feel DDP-enough stylistically, and it's not my favourite Cave soundtrack, but right now I'm having a lot of fun.

Initially I thought it was a bit of a rollercoaster shmup (a damn exciting one), but right now I feel like I'm discovering all kinds of scoring fun.

On autobomb - I'm actually starting to enjoy it because of the value and power of a manual bombing in contrast to autobomb. In other shooters, I've always played better with no bombs in stock, as there's less to think about. Carrying a full bomb stock (where well used bombs have the potential to save you loosing a life, and thus court the same value as a life in stock) is a nerve wracking experience that I like. With DFK, having to think about whether to manual bomb or gamble the autobomb; it's one more thing on your mind while playing - which I think is no bad thing. When I use autobomb I don't necessarily feel I got a cheap save anymore; my mind is starting to be more occupied by frustration that I failed to use a manual bomb well.

[chempop]

I love DFK1.5, but I see why people aren't crazy about it. For me Arrange A is the best (can destroy those damn spinning stage-5 lasers!!!), I only wish all three ships were playable in this mode.

I will admit though I've taken a break from playing now that I've discovered the joys of Futari God Mode.

[SFKhoa]

Yeah. I don't really like 1.5. Arrange A is where it's at (for me, anyway).

[Udderdude]

If it weren't for Arrange A, I would prob. sell it.

And yes I'm crazy enough to buy Ketsuipachi label anyway >_>

[Naut]

Your overall score has nothing to do with your impression of the game.

This was my whole point.

[Elixir]

Your overall score has nothing to do with your impression of the game.

This was my whole point.

You're trying to say the people here dislike the game because their score is poor and nothing else, while I'm trying to say that, regardless of their score at hand, it has no bearing on whether they like it or not.

oh sure let's just learn a scoring system we don't like in a game we don't like before judging it. pfft, whatever

[captpain]

Your overall score has nothing to do with your impression of the game.

This was my whole point.

You're trying to say the people here dislike the game because their score is poor and nothing else, while I'm trying to say that, regardless of their score at hand, it has no bearing on whether they like it or not.

oh sure let's just learn a scoring system we don't like in a game we don't like before judging it. pfft, whatever

I guess it could be used as a sort of rough measure of a person's general interest in the game, but as far as capability to judge the scoring system's basic ideas, I don't think it's really worth much. But that's obvious.

I would say that the ability to form a convincing case for a preference often goes hand-in-hand with scoring ability, though.

[Skykid]

I would say that the ability to form a convincing case for a preference often goes hand-in-hand with scoring ability, though.

I can see the point there, but I think many of the people in this thread who had critical views are very adept at scoring and learning scoring systems. In which case it's fair to assume their preferences have been formed for several other reasons that make scoring/progress unappealing.

Personally the scoring system isn't an issue. Chaining isn't a problem, I've seen it before. But there are several pedantic, overthought additions and requirements and odd balances that leave 1.5 feeling slightly off-kilter.

Based on what brentsg says though, BL is where it's at, and I suppose I was always really looking forward to that version above anything else (mainly for the soundtrack.) The guy's owned both PCB's, so it's definitely an informed opinion, and one I'm optimistic about.

[brentsg]

Based on what brentsg says though, BL is where it's at, and I suppose I was always really looking forward to that version above anything else (mainly for the soundtrack.) The guy's owned both PCB's, so it's definitely an informed opinion, and one I'm optimistic about.

In the end though, it's still just an opinion and a preference. And I'd say our tastes are quite different, so you should probably just give up now.

[captpain]

lol, I've never even played DFK (except the demo on the iPhone). And yeah, it's really just about what you like to play... there's no need to justify it. I do find the discussion interesting, though, because it always looked like tons of fun to me.

[spl]

What? For real?

I thought it was said DFK is the best in the whole DDP series and here you have people writing it off?

People complaining about chaining? Hasn't DDP been about that since 1997? I'm quite confused with some of the comments here.

I personally hate the bullet cancelling - love the chaining.

[Naut]

You're trying to say the people here dislike the game because their score is poor and nothing else

wtf can you read

it has no bearing on whether they like it or not.

Yes, this was my point.

Judging a game based on how well you score in it is absolutely absurd.

[Elixir]

No, this was your point:

I didn't want to touch on any of them, but this one really irks me: Stuff like complaining that the game is too hard to score well in is just fucking laughable. The only reason people think that is because better players have already made the game their bitch. Think about it, if everybody who played this game sucked, then the high score would be lower, so when you play and get 32 and then see that the highest score is only 40 or something, you'd think you've scored well. But secretly everybody who plays is just terrible, and hopefully somebody good will show them their place soon enough. Thinking you're not scoring well or that scoring is too hard is purely you comparing yourself to better players. In this case, you suck compared to them, and for some reason you think it's the games fault. Ok.

Which is basically summed up as, "people (in this thread) dislike the scoring system because they suck at it, and because others are already good at it".
- This is wrong else we'd see everyone hate every new shmup release, as already explained.
- This is wrong as the majority of the thread is not complaining about the scoring system, but rather, other things which bother them (Ura loop, 1.51 boss lasers, etc)
- People already know the scoring system and aren't going to become skilled, top scorers before announcing their dislike for the system.

I've already explained the problem with your point, which you tried to change into:

Judging a game based on how well you score in it is absolutely absurd.

You're contradicting yourself, and apparently, you disagree with yourself as well.

[Skykid]

What? For real?

I thought it was said DFK is the best in the whole DDP series and here you have people writing it off?

People complaining about chaining? Hasn't DDP been about that since 1997? I'm quite confused with some of the comments here.

I personally hate the bullet cancelling - love the chaining.

I don't think anybody has cited the chaining as the core reason for dissatisfaction, but rather noted it as one particular irk coupled with several others. The thread has lots of decent, concrete feedback and it's not all chaining related.

lol, I've never even played DFK (except the demo on the iPhone). And yeah, it's really just about what you like to play... there's no need to justify it. I do find the discussion interesting, though, because it always looked like tons of fun to me.

This is going to sound weird and argumentative and I promise it's not meant to be, but I think I had more fun with the iphone version (*ducks to avoid incoming rocks*)

Probably because I didn't know what I was doing exactly and was playing more for fun than score. Also, it's way easier to manoeuvre and trigger ura bosses etc, so less instant frustration.

And I could play it on the train.

[KindGrind]

Count me in on the mehfest bandwagon. Pretty long route, then I make it to stage 5, which never fails to bore me to no end. Maybe becase I don't score remotely well, but I just could never care about this one.

Isn't DFK a bit rubbish?

[Emuser]

Maybe people feel lost on all of the little things needed to play this game for a good score, which is quite a handful to take in for anyone who has never taken this game for a spin. All the little things sure as hell aren't immediately apparent, and it is quite a chunk to bite into when you start the game for the first time. This is a game that LIVES on playing for score, playing this for survival is some serious rubbish.

Thankfully for those who do like this game for scoring, the challenge is huge and very complex. This game is no more strict on scoring than Dodonpachi and Daioujou are anyways, it is probably less strict overall due to the max bomb bonus not being worth diddly squat. The worst that could happen in a run is that you auto-bomb/die and lose your scoring potential for the level you died in. In DDP and DOJ(I believe) once you died, you would lose an immense amount of points for the rest of the game because your max bonus is completely gone. In either case, if you were going for a super high score in any of these games, then chances are you'd have to rage quit and try again. I may be wrong when it comes to DOJ's scoring since I have hardly any experience in that game though. The challenge for high scores is definitely here.

Or maybe it just strays too far from the traditional style of Dodonpachi? IF this game were designed to not look like or be called Dodonpachi, maybe it wouldn't bug some people. I do agree that those who are extremely fond of previous games in the series may not like DFK since there's less dodging involved once you hyper. The major point though, once again mentioning that score is the living essence of this game, one would not be in hyper at all in the 2nd half of any stage if they wanted to maximize score.

[gs68]

The one thing about DFK that turns me off, other than the gratuitous Hyper bullet cancel, is how you have to time out midbosses and milk them for score. If DFK's scoring was an image on Danbooru, it would get the "what" tag.

[chempop]

This is a game that LIVES on playing for score, playing this for survival is some serious rubbish.

I feel the exact opposite and I enjoy the game tons. Dodonpachi is the one Cave series I ignore score most of the time. [edit]. Arrange A though is great for score, I can get the chain to 30K+ which makes me feel special

Also, people are complaining about bullet canceling, but doesn't Black Label have even more?

[Kollision]

Spent some time with the game yesterday.
Finally got the hang of using hypers and blocking bullets, so all I have to say is...

Thank you Cave for making a DDP game that's playable by mere mortals such as myself!
I got to the last stage and I wasn't even playing seriously!

The game is awesome and tons of fun (still not much fond of the music, but I'm certain I'll end up liking it in the long run ).

[spadgy]

Thank you Cave for making a DDP game that's playable by mere mortals such as myself!

I agree with this. While I think I'm finally climbing away from being a complete no-hoper with Cave games, I think it's great that Cave are making games that lesser players can enjoy that still have ample scoring scope for high-end players.

With reference to the Skykid's OP, where he said...

I don't like Cave's modern idea that the game can be relatively easy, you should just learn to mine and squeeze points out of each stage like a loaded sponge.

I think I'm being won over by this approach, as long as, like in Deathsmiles, the higher scoring game is a far harder game. Admittedly, it does seem like DFK is a little lacking in that regard.

I agree that a hard 1CC is satisfying, and I hope that they are still catered for and I'm a real sucker for 1CC chasing, but perhaps Cave's 'new model' for shmup difficulty is one that will shift player's attention to pursuing particularly high scoring rather than just 1CC'ing.

Often a hard 1CC ends my relationship with a game, but in the Case of Deathsmiles where the 1CC came pretty fast, I stuck with the game far longer that I might otherwise of done. I hope this happens with DFK.

[Frederik]

I´m actually happy that DFK is so different from DOJ.

Donpachi felt like a DoDonpachi prototype, Dodonpachi is the archetypical CAVE game, DOJ is the super-grim true black metal version of it, and DFK is the cheesy J-Pop take with fluffy bullet cancelling, rainbow colors and autobombing. (Not that I have played it yet, so don´t take that serious.)

I don't like Cave's modern idea that the game can be relatively easy, you should just learn to mine and squeeze points out of each stage like a loaded sponge.

I think I'm being won over by this approach, as long as, like in Deathsmiles, the higher scoring game is a far harder game.

I agree. I´m loving Ketsui to bits right now, but also finally warming up to Espgaluda. I kept wondering why people call it so easy all the time, until I realized that scoring drives the rank up quite a bit, and that it wouldn´t even occur to me to use any of the given techniques for pure survival. Play Espgaluda for a 1cc and it´s indeed pretty easy (well... until the end anyways), but also quite boring. Playing for score makes it juicy and exciting.

To me, the survival aspect is the defensive part of a shmup, while scoring is the agressive one. It creates a very nice balance and I don´t really enjoy games that are too brutal on pure survival anymore.

CAVE games have always been score-centric titles. It´s only that in the DDP series so far you could ignore the scoring aspect the easiest and still feel like you´re not missing too much. DFK, from what I can tell, seems to have changed that.

[Skykid]

Often a hard 1CC ends my relationship with a game

This coming from the guy who can 1cc JP Progear. No walk in the park. Why be apprehensive of hard games ever again?

My point is that I don't care if I never even get a clear on a shmup as long as it's loadsa fun. I'll keep going back for the incremental progression, because that's rewarding in itself. You can feel yourself learning and levelling up your skills, but at the same time you're pushing toward the final goal - that's one of the most thrilling aspects of shmups for me.

DFK negates that idea. Even if you're average, you don't need to put much time in to race through to at least stage 5 on a credit (standing behind the queue of players at IC09 was painful). This tips the balance from short games that progressively get longer, making a quick go before work or after dinner ideal for skill sharpening, to long games that progressively get more boring because you keep seeing the same shit over and over, you're just working to figure out how to squeeze all the points out of each section. As brentsg noted when he had the 1.5 pcb, that's not a very enthusing prospect.

In fact, Progear is a fine example. You and I battled through that game as a hardcore entry level to 1cc'ing a Cave shmup. Not only would we find ourselves making progress through the stages, but steadily figuring out scoring tricks as we went. A nice harmony.

This newer stuff - well, Deathsmiles and DFK at least (and probably even Akai Katana come to think of it) are changing that pacing into something slower and less exciting imo.

However, I concede completely that if someone get's very good at scoring in DFK (such as Icarus) that there's plenty enjoyment to be had - it's more just the structure that's unappealing to me.

[cools]

I'll be honest, much as I love Futari and playing for score in that, I was getting a bit tired of the sight of levels 1-2 by the time I was happily making it to levels 4 and 5 regularly.

Making it to L5 on my first credit of DFK (I don't remember what mode it was) left me slightly speechless, particularly because it was dull as hell doing so.

[Skykid]

I'll be honest, much as I love Futari and playing for score in that, I was getting a bit tired of the sight of levels 1-2 by the time I was happily making it to levels 4 and 5 regularly.

Making it to L5 on my first credit of DFK (I don't remember what mode it was) left me slightly speechless, particularly because it was dull as hell doing so.

Actually, I feel exactly the same about Futari's first two stages now (one of the reasons I'm pretty tired of Futari generally), but when I first got the game I went for the original clear relentlessly and it was fun all the way. When it came to Maniac I only made it to stage 4 before I didn't want to look at the game anymore.

[kernow]

I tired of futari after about 10 plays, fucking lobsters firing bullets at me wtf.

[emphatic]

I tired of futari after about 10 plays, fucking lobsters firing bullets at me wtf.

OH NOES, THAT NEVAR HAPPEND IN NATURE!

[kernow]

o//