Cave games ranked by difficulty

[captpain]

Ketsui feels fine to me, dude. Took me around three weeks of solid play to reach the 1-4 boss. I'm using ShmupMAME 2.2.

Weird, I'm using the same one. Though of course Stage 1-4 ramps up the difficulty significantly.

Can anyone try going through the first stage without any input and see how far they get, since I accidentally had it happen once and only died when I got to the big silver planes' second attack (The pink bullet spreads). Player 1 I think.

Jesus just give up

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Jesus just give up

I think every one whose posting on this forum has played enough shmups to know when the shmup their playing isnt emulating at the correct speed or whatever (or atlest any changes big enough to drastically alter the difficulty)

Thats why those guys who when caught out at sgt2010 played dumb, just didnt wash over me

[NR777]

Ketsui feels fine to me, dude. Took me around three weeks of solid play to reach the 1-4 boss. I'm using ShmupMAME 2.2.

Weird, I'm using the same one. Though of course Stage 1-4 ramps up the difficulty significantly.

Can anyone try going through the first stage without any input and see how far they get, since I accidentally had it happen once and only died when I got to the big silver planes' second attack (The pink bullet spreads). Player 1 I think.

Jesus just give up

QFT. Learn2play.

[wiNteR]

I made a thread similar to this sometime back, but that was for all games and personal clears only. This list is for the Cave games or first loops I have cleared (not many). The list is in ascending order but same row means very similar level of difficulty. A space means more significant increase in difficulty. The list is based purely on survival.

I don't think some people realize how easy first loops for DDP and DP are, if you just bomb at the right time. And for danmaku games bombing at right time is relatively easier. Under Defeat took me 31 hours to clear because bombing at the right time feels so difficult. Point being that bomb distribution is very important, if we are just talking about survival. So games where bombs are more difficult to anticipate, for whatever reason, are more difficult survival games.

For ESP Galuda most of the difficulty is concentrated at the end. So if you just get the final boss down, you get an instant shot at a clear.

EASY

DoDonPachi (1 loop)
DeathSmiles (all 2, no extra)
DonPachi (1 loop)
ESP Galuda

Progear (1 loop)
ESP Rade
Guwange / Dangun Feveron
Ketsui (1 loop)

HARD

Edit: updated

[borislaw]

Good topic, I just 1cc'd Esp Ra. De., and being my first Cave 1cc, I wondered how the company's other games stacked up in terms of difficulty.

I am fascinated by the lack of consensus here. I guess the easiest game is simply the game most-practiced. Sasupoika's list is probably fairly close to what my current guestimation would be (although haven't played Mushi, Ibara or Deathsmiles.

[wiNteR]

I am fascinated by the lack of consensus here.

Actually not that much I think. I kind of agree with Sasupoika and moozooh's lists (based on what I have played or seen myself). I misunderstood moozooh's list in my previous post, so ignore that part about ddp clear. The only thing I will probably really disagree with is placing doj's first loop so low. I am still not sure what he used the spaces for though, because there is a rather huge difference between Dangun Feveron clear and a DDP all clear.

And I think part of the reason why so much apparent difference of opinion might come from is score. This is why if you make this kind of list, it's better to make survival only one imo, and if not that, you have to be more detailed about what kind of score or ship you are talking about.

[moozooh]

I am still not sure what he used the spaces for though, because there is a rather huge difference between Dangun Feveron clear and a DDP all clear.

To separate groups of games/modes by tiers, which are intuitively arranged by the amount of time I expect to put in in order to have a clear. There is indeed a huge difference between a DDP 1-ALL and a Feveron ALL, because if you can reasonably cruise through the former on bombs mostly without knowing the game well, in the latter you need to take your time to learn the enemy layout exactly, so that you could know when and where to point-blank to keep the screen free from undodgeable crap. Basically any game that has some tool allowing to instantly rectify mistakes in timing and positioning for hard spots (hypers in DFK, generous extends in Progear, "make game easier" mode in Espgaluda, lots of bombs in DP and DDP, shikigami bullet slowing and liberal life gauge in Guwange, but most of all autobomb in all games that have it) is going to be easier than a game you have to learn to get far into.

I've revised my list somewhat and added various port modes, btw.

[wiNteR]

To separate groups of games/modes by tiers, which are intuitively arranged by the amount of time I expect to put in in order to have a clear.

In that case ddp all clear should be a tier (or rather two tiers) above the other games you put in same category, regardless of whether scoring is a factor or not. That's what I was trying to say.

[TVG]

Dear mods,
Please don't ever ban that Reverse backwards guy.
Thanks.

[Skykid]

People are seriously underplaying Espgaluda 2's difficulty in these lists. Let me know when you all get that 1CC.

[adversity1]

People are seriously underplaying Espgaluda 2's difficulty in these lists. Let me know when you all get that 1CC.

:thumbs up:

[Snake]

Finally put some time into the Deathsmiles games in the arcade. They seem easier than the rest of the Cave library.

I find Dangun Feveron the hardest. Those bullets are hauling ass.

[renardqueenston]

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

[Skykid]

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

I think a lot of people just throw stuff up there without properly playing the games tbh. If you haven't cleared it or at least come close to clearing it, you can't really judge the difficulty.
The last couple of levels on esprade are tough, with the boss on the Shinjuku train line and Ms Garra herself being damned hard.

Likewise my Espgaluda 2 mention. Peeps are on crack if they think that's easier than Dodonpachi and DFK 1.5...or even Progear.

[captpain]

ESP RaDe would be a lot less difficult if didn't have the weird hitbox positioning/wiggling player sprite thing.

[chempop]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

EASY
-------
Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
ESPGaluda
MuchiMuchi Pork (1st loop)
Dodonpachi (1st loop)
Dodonpachi DFK (1st loop)
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (original and maniac)

MEDIUM
-----------
Guwange
Progear
ESPrade
DOJ (1st loop)
Ketsui (1st loop)
Mushi (original and maniac)
Futari (original and maniac)

HARD
--------
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron
Galuda 2
DOJ (2nd-loop)
Ketsui (2nd loop)
Mushi Ultra
Futari Ultra
Ibara

[Sumez]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

[Sumez]

I think a lot of people just throw stuff up there without properly playing the games tbh. If you haven't cleared it or at least come close to clearing it, you can't really judge the difficulty.
The last couple of levels on esprade are tough, with the boss on the Shinjuku train line and Ms Garra herself being damned hard.

I was thinking the same. I've credit spammed Ms Garra into hell without figuring out how to dodge her crazy "1 million hands" attacks when they cross eachother. It looks easy enough in theory, but I just keep failing. I'm sure it's easy once you get the trick, but as long as I don't own the board myself there's no chance I'll ever learn it.

[wiNteR]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

Seems to be fair enough, but I don't think you can compare any of the two loops and ultras with the other single-loop games. But I don't have any experience with half of the games there.

However, what I can say is that you might really be over-estimating dangun feveron there. In fact, it's easier than ketsui's first loop, if you are going purely for survival, although you won't get much of a score that way. And even for score, the first four stages aren't difficult to chain in themselves (maximizing it is another thing). Stage-5 seemed really hard to chain though, without any proper pre-planning. Perhaps it could be that using speed 3 makes the game easier, because of more precision, but takes away some the chain maximizing capacity.

[Deca]

I don't think some people realize how easy first loops for DDP and DP are, if you just bomb at the right time. And for danmaku games bombing at right time is relatively easier.

A lot of people say this but in the last two stages I have a LOT of trouble :/ I have several 1CCs and DDP's first loop is not among them.

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

I'm right there with you. It probably doesn't help that I've never liked esprade at all to begin with, but for a while I was pretty focused on getting that 1CC...Maybe it's just a personal thing but ridiculous length of the boss fights seems to give me the most trouble, too many unforced errors.

[KidQuaalude]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

<pedantry>
Especially as 'PT' isn't an acronym. An acronym is an abbreviation that spells out another word.
</pendantry>

[Anesthetize]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

Aphex had commented on my avatar, which is the cover of an album by Porcupine Tree.

[Skykid]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

A few I'd say. Based on either playing for a clear or for serious score, I'd change the following (I'll just add notes to your list:)

EASY
-------
Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
ESPGaluda (Should be in medium)
MuchiMuchi Pork (1st loop) (Should be in medium)
Dodonpachi (1st loop) (Should be in medium)
Dodonpachi DFK (1st loop) (If you're playing Strong, it's easy, if you're playing Power and for score, it's Medium)
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (original and maniac)

MEDIUM
-----------
Guwange
Progear
ESPrade
DOJ (1st loop) (This loop dissecting is a bit silly. This is hard from the start.)
Ketsui (1st loop) (Same as above, belongs in hard)
Mushi (original and maniac)
Futari (original and maniac)

HARD
--------
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron
Galuda 2
DOJ (2nd-loop)
Ketsui (2nd loop)
Mushi Ultra
Futari Ultra
Ibara
(No probs with the above.)

That's how I see it anyhow.

[Sumez]

<pedantry>
Especially as 'PT' isn't an acronym. An acronym is an abbreviation that spells out another word.
</pendantry>

Thanks I didn't know that (English is not my first language)

[Clessx]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

I didnt include Dangun Feveron because I cannot get used to it. Scoring feels awkward , ship not slowing down while pressing shooting button is uncomfortable , and theme also dont appeal much.

I think of Esprade to be hardest because of a bit weird character movement , especially after level 4 , die often while trying to find a way between bullets , even I thought I could dodge. Even with more bullets in Daioujou or Progear I can do better. Also hitbox placement seems a bit different than what I am used to. Still one of my favourite Cave games , though

What do you think about Esprade"s difficulty ?

[Skykid]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

This thread sucks balls.

[Clessx]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

This thread sucks balls.

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

[Skykid]

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

The comment isn't directed at you, I just used your post as another example of how pointless it is to spend 3 pages trying to rank the difficulty of Cave's back catalogue when everyone has wildly different opinions, the variation of which are down to a lack of experience with the games being listed.

If the thread had an accurate consensus it would be worthwhile, but it doesn't. So it sucks, let's kill it and move on.

[chempop]

Skykid, are you nuts man?! You're ruffled about 3 pages of difficulty discussion (many of which are your posts) when this forum literally has dozens and dozens of pages about importing delays, slowdown accuracy, and @$#*¥ scanlines!!!

This is one of the only threads I've been interested in for a long time. I've only 1CC a handful of CAVE's games, and it helps me decide on which other titles may be within my reach, and which I should probably hold out on until my skills improve.

Btw, I appreciated your response to my list, I'm still not sure if I'd call ESPgaluda or Dodonpachi (1st loop) medium difficulty, but I enjoyed reading your comments none-the-less.

[Anesthetize]

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

The comment isn't directed at you, I just used your post as another example of how pointless it is to spend 3 pages trying to rank the difficulty of Cave's back catalogue when everyone has wildly different opinions, the variation of which are down to a lack of experience with the games being listed.

If the thread had an accurate consensus it would be worthwhile, but it doesn't. So it sucks, let's kill it and move on.

The point of this thread was not to come up with a consensus on an exact list sorted by difficulty. The point was to hear different personal opinions on which games are harder than other games, hopefully including some thoughts on what makes them hard or not.

I've certainly enjoyed hearing totally different responses, and I'm glad at least some other people have enjoyed the thread. There's no need to try to kill a thread simply because you are not interested in it or don't understand it. I do appreciate the feedback you've given so far, though, since you have more experience with a lot of these games than I do.