Raiden 3 port announced for PS2

[gigadrive32]

Xexex is coming out for PS2 in a few months.

awesome!

[kid aphex]

Not to go off topic, but how is Xexex appearing on the PS2?
Is it a port or a remake?

[BulletMagnet]

Check this thread:

http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2964

[Defcon 5]

Of course Type X is not PS2 and if you look at the specs Type X would be more apt for Xbox. But do you really think Raiden III will drive TypeX to their limit ?

Raiden III looks good, but its never what the TypeX can really do. Thats why I think Raiden III will run smoothly on Ps2. But again, after GWG it is very doubtful

[Naiera]

GWG wasn't very good to begin with.

[greg]

Guys, don't get too excited about Raiden 3. I played it during my last trip to Japan and it really wasn't impressive at all. Time to burst your bubbles:

1. They screwed up the toothpaste gun. It no longer locks on and swirls around the target. All you can do is wag it back and forth.

2. Graphics are bland and boring. It's all rendered.... they should've stuck to sprites. It's bland and dull. Looking at beautifully 3D rendered games like Ikaruga, Shiki, and Border Down and then looking at Raiden 3 is a big letdown. They really _really_ should've stuck to sprites. Raiden DX is still the best in all its Seibu Kaihatsu glory. DX was beautifully done with such exquisite attention to detail.

3. Nothing new, at least not from the first few levels I played. Raiden 3 is just boring and forgettable. I didn't spend much time on it at all, especially with Mushihime-sama only a few cabs down from it at the game center.

[Skyknight]

Well, Moss isn't claiming the two weapons in question are related at all...

Purple: Plasma Beam
Green: Proton Laser (yes, that's its official name)

Coolness isn't everything, mind. Or even real, for that matter...

I believe nZero, at least, has called the Proton Laser potentially more useful than the Plasma Beam (it can't get stuck to an enemy in such a way that you might not be able to attack the very top of the screen)...

As to Radar Missiles, apparently they lean in the direction of their target when it first appears, but can't re-aim. Also, they can only launch with a forward vector. You'll still need homing to hit anything to your sides or rear.

[Cthulhu]

I credit fed Raiden III to the end a while ago just so I could see everything and I really enjoyed it. Raiden isn't a manic series, and so expecting a Cave-like mass of bullets onscreen from Raiden III is pretty unrealistic imho. (The last level approaches manic, but still...)

Also, the toothpaste-gun was only a standard weapon in Raiden 2, right? (I don't remember if it was in DX or not...) A couple ships have it in the Fighters series, but it's not a "prerequisite" weapon for a Raiden game. The vulcan is still the way to go if you ask me. Vanilla, but effective.

If you don't want to read the disaster that the GWG thread has become, I don't blame you, but don't use the GWG PS2 port as a yardstick for anything. First, GWG looks ugly in the arcade and on the PS2, and two, the PS2 actually fixes a few of the framerate problems the arcade game had. It's hard to say what the Type-X hardware set can do when pressed to the max, and whether Raiden III approaches that limit or not. I don't think the number of polys in Raiden III is anything the PS2 couldn't handle, but we'll see.

[Dylan1CC]

Crud, that really bites, Greg. Sorry to hear it. I thought for sure it would at least be decent considering it was being directed by the creator of the series. No lock on with the toothpaste gun. *boggle*

[Ghegs]

I thought for sure it would at least be decent considering it was being directed by the creator of the series. No lock on with the toothpaste gun. *boggle*

Yes, that single fact makes the whole game crap.

EDIT: Ah, I see you corrected yourself already in the "dead genre"-thread. Nevermind.

[Dandy J]

Personally I never liked the toothpaste gun. Just seemed like an 'easy mode' to me. That is, beginners could have an easier time (didn't have to worry about aiming), but the weapon wasn't all that good anyway (gets stuck on stuff, low damage). I mean it was cool at the time, but if I was designing Raiden II and someone came to me with the idea of a full-screen lock-on laser, I'd tell him he was retarded.

[Randorama]

Crud, that really bites, Greg. Sorry to hear it. I thought for sure it would at least be decent considering it was being directed by the creator of the series. No lock on with the toothpaste gun. *boggle*

Now, as you are also having somewhere an argument with someone else, i will invoke some ounce of rationality and say:

1.They put a different weapon, and the toothpaste gun was just a graphical gimmick (i.e it was useless, gameplay-wise, in the game).

2.All i see so far is this bizarre worshipping of 2D in all of its forms. Now, Raiden DX was well done, but there have been other 2D games which are better. If you are going to pay money for nice graphics, it's better that you buy some book of illustrations: i agree, an ugly rehash of a game is not worth a lot of money, but do you really want to pay the same amount for a bunch of backgrounds, regardless of how good they are?

3. Apples and Oranges. Beside that, and nothing personal to greg, but since Chtulhu has a completely different opinion on it (and the original Raiden DX champion too, there was a translation of his impressions on Click's site), i would hold my judgement until the game gets published.

4. This basically means that, well, i think i will get the game and, if i don't like it, i will re-sell it. Graphics? Well, let me add something to my usual "blah, give me gameplay": right now i don't really pretend that someone can do 2D games like they were done in, say, the first half of the '90s. I still think that games like Rayforce or Soukyugurentai (or Xexex) are still impressive, in terms of " what 2D can do".

However, i don't really care about this issue: else, i would have never touched, not even with a pole, the various "modern 2D shmups": frankly, most of them have a lot of detail, but they're no more than "highly detailed post-cards". Just to act as an arrogant and narrow-minded kid (like the preachers of the holy truth around a few forums here), how can Cave go around with games that lack decent scaling effects, when Phelios had them in 1988?How can Takumi be succesful with a game that would have looked unpolished on a Megadrive/Genesis (Giga Wing, a game i really love, in case you wonder)? Etc. Etc.

I think that, honestly, the "sanest" approach at the latest batch of shmups is: figure out what is closest to one own's gaming taste, try out, resell if it's not enjoyable, play if it is. Extremisms of various kinds, invocations of a golden age of pure, untamed gameplay and fabled 2D graphics is a bit on the psychotic side. Well, not entirely, after all: and yes, i do think that modern 2D games, or better: Cave/Psikio/whatever stuff of the recent 6-7 years lacks something.


Then, to make things even worse, i do think that gameplay has changed quite a bit and yes, the 1987-1993 era, with the boom of console shmups and graphical experiments (and shmups without any even rudimental score systems to talk about) was the worst. As i said somewhere else, i don't see Originality (with the capital O, mind you) in the seventh Gradius or the sixth R-Type. I see this mythological creature called originality being mentioned a lot, of late, and by people that, so far (see the high score charts and the strategy section), haven't shown an hint of gameplay comprehension.

Bitching about golden eras is reactionary and also pretty senile. Beside that, there are people that, after millennia, still play games like Go and Chess. must be a reason behind it, but i suppose this is way beyond the thread.

And if you read this far, here's a quote to be blatantly used for trolling purposes:


OMG RAIDENIIIISTHEROXXORZPLZKTHXBYEEEZOORZIWANTACHILDFROMTYPEXANDNAOMITOO!!1!

[raiden]

They put a different weapon, and the toothpaste gun was just a graphical gimmick (i.e it was useless, gameplay-wise, in the game).

the toothpaste laser is a beginner weapon, that´s not equivalent of useless. While you´re not familiar with the game, the toothpaste laser is a good weapon choice. Useless weapons are those that are weaker than every other one without a redeeming quality (like ease of use).

2.All i see so far is this bizarre worshipping of 2D in all of its forms. Now, Raiden DX was well done, but there have been other 2D games which are better. If you are going to pay money for nice graphics, it's better that you buy some book of illustrations: i agree, an ugly rehash of a game is not worth a lot of money, but do you really want to pay the same amount for a bunch of backgrounds, regardless of how good they are?

if I buy a book of illustrations, I can´t play games while watching it. On the other hand, if a game with ugly graphics has gameplay designed for replay value, I have to look at those ugly graphics all the time.
2d graphics worship can be explained quite easily: because graphic standards haven´t advanced too much after 1995, the old games still seem pretty refined, while the 2d gameplay in 3d graphics lack even the most basic features of modern 3d graphics.
If there were a 2d game coming out now with a color palette of 64 colors, flickering sprites and an Atari 2600 style resolution, people would bitch just the same, because that would be even way behind the standard reached in 1995. I´m not one of those people that get excited over new releases just because they are new releases, BUT the majority of people who do get excited do that because they are fascinated with progress - not steps taken backward. Of course there are financial reasons why games with 2d gameplay don´t get put as much effort into as they got 10 years ago, but why should that convince a player to buy the new stuff? It´s like having smaller packages of goods sold for higher prices in the supermarket, you can´t do that endlessly without losing customers along the way.

3. Apples and Oranges. Beside that, and nothing personal to greg, but since Chtulhu has a completely different opinion on it (and the original Raiden DX champion too, there was a translation of his impressions on Click's site), i would hold my judgement until the game gets published.

well, in that point, I agree 100%.

Bitching about golden eras is reactionary and also pretty senile. Beside that, there are people that, after millennia, still play games like Go and Chess. must be a reason behind it, but i suppose this is way beyond the thread.

I don´t know why you mention that, because it´s an argument for what you call reactionary: it means that you don´t have to wait for a stack of new games coming out all the time, it´s just as well to keep playing the old games.

[ROBOTRON]

I bought an import PS2 long ago just for importing shmups...so getting this game will be no problem. I highly anticipate this game.

[TVG]

i dont get it, why would the purple weapon suck if it makes the first 5 stages 10 times easier than any other weapon? red only being required from stage 6 onwards because of those fast mofos that come from both sides of the screen.
the game is brutal enough as to not need any additional layers of difficulty by using an innapropriate weapon.

im not talking about DX as i know nothing of that game.

its either two things, either you all suck very bad at using the purple weapon, or i suck very bad at using red, or a combination of both, i dont know.

keep in mind raiden 2 is nothing like raiden DX novice course arcade diff, if that makes any difference to you.

also i got to stage 6 of raiden 2 psx using the purple weapon, while its not something to be proud of, it took me some time and effort, just to say that i played the game alot and experimented with both weapons, red creates a lot more useless cheap deaths than the purple.
(having the right missiles at the right time is crucial too)

and no one can dissmiss the purple usefulness as a "recovering" weapon.

[Randorama]

if I buy a book of illustrations, I can´t play games while watching it. On the other hand, if a game with ugly graphics has gameplay designed for replay value, I have to look at those ugly graphics all the time.

I don't mind ugly graphics with good gameplay (i'm serious: if a girl has an hot body and a sharp brain, her face may even be horrid), but what i meant is that, well, people here seem to completely skip the gaming part.

[/quote]
2d graphics worship can be explained quite easily: because graphic standards haven´t advanced too much after 1995, the old games still seem pretty refined, while the 2d gameplay in 3d graphics lack even the most basic features of modern 3d graphics.
[/quote]

That's why i'm pretty cold about Cave games, graphics-wise.

I´m not one of those people that get excited over new releases just because they are new releases, BUT the majority of people who do get excited do that because they are fascinated with progress - not steps taken backward. Of course there are financial reasons why games with 2d gameplay don´t get put as much effort into as they got 10 years ago, but why should that convince a player to buy the new stuff? It´s like having smaller packages of goods sold for higher prices in the supermarket, you can´t do that endlessly without losing customers along the way.

yeah, but once someone starts worshipping Cave because they are still doing 2D games, something's wrong: on one side, they don't offer much more graphical advancements than the mentioned games of ten years ago (and i can accept it without any problems, since the arcade market is now about 30% of 10 years ago). On the other side, they are not offering anything new in terms of gameplay (but well, i still have to fully understand Manic and Ultra modes of Mushihime). At any case, i doubt they have RADICALLY changed style. So, Cave gets worshipped for doing "10 years old graphics" and "small changes to a given engine".Why is that?

I don´t know why you mention that, because it´s an argument for what you call reactionary: it means that you don´t have to wait for a stack of new games coming out all the time, it´s just as well to keep playing the old games.

Ah, i think this is a sort of untintended effect: Go and chess are incredibly complex, their gameplay (without brackets, yes) is what keeps people playing. It's a big jump,but we can say that someone could bitch about modern wargames (in the dice and paper fashion) and say "bah, superficial stuff, if you want true strategy, play chess". This analogy is mightily crappy, but the main point that i want to highlight is: good games are not the ones of the past "because everything is shiny and beatiful during my own youth", but the ones who have a good engine behind it. Of course some games were innovative, because well, no one did some things before ( "a ship shooting stuff? Innovative!"), but it's easy to be innovative if you're the first one to explore a phenomenon, so to speak.

In this regard, the era of provenience is pointless: a good engine may last forever, so to speak. Of course, if from a given point on shmups will completely become blatant reashes (Ibara....Battle Garegga 2? And i adore Raizing games, mind you) without any worthy elements of gameplay to be explored, how tiny they may be, well: i'll check what i can still play for score. I surely have left tons of stuff behind.

But, surely, i won't mind the crappy graphics, relative to the period of publication, of course.

[Dandy J]

toothpaste stuff

It's not that I think that toothpaste is a totally useless weapon or anything, I just think it's poorly made from a game design standpoint. I just...dislike its design.

[TVG]

im talking about the design (which i happen to enjoy, it feels great using it, moreso than the generic spread shot)

[raiden]

but what i meant is that, well, people here seem to completely skip the gaming part.

well, the question is: why should I buy Raiden III if I don´t have mastered the prequels yet? Why should I buy Gigawing Generations if I´m still being challenged by Gigawing 1? That´s not skipping the gameplay part, if anything, it´s a question of balance, but the thing that really keeps me attached to the old games is the fact that they become more fun the more time you spend with them. I don´t have too much spare time, and I find it very difficult to get into new shmups I don´t have any practice with, because with less than 100 hours spent on it, the fun doesn´t even start. Of course there are easy games like Shienryu Explosion or Silpheed 2, but personally, I don´t respect those at all. I want a challenge I need to dedicate myself to to be able to cope with it.

yeah, but once someone starts worshipping Cave because they are still doing 2D games, something's wrong: on one side, they don't offer much more graphical advancements than the mentioned games of ten years ago (and i can accept it without any problems, since the arcade market is now about 30% of 10 years ago). On the other side, they are not offering anything new in terms of gameplay (but well, i still have to fully understand Manic and Ultra modes of Mushihime). At any case, i doubt they have RADICALLY changed style. So, Cave gets worshipped for doing "10 years old graphics" and "small changes to a given engine".Why is that?

from a graphical perspective, I´d say Cave isn´t too much into advancing technology, but getting the most out of it from a stylistic point of view. You can´t seriously claim Raiden III or GWG are even remotely in the same league as Mushihime when it comes to style, can you?
From a gameplay perspective, I agree with your criticism, they are recycling concepts, just in a less obvious way than Psikyo did it. They are also taking depth out of their games on purpose, to have people hunger for their next release when it comes out. But, reading all those interviews Gaijinpunch translated recently, I´ve developed some idea of why they are so popular and still around: they really care and think about gameplay aspects very much, very indepth, and with an open mind. Their long experience with the genre really shows. For example, after doing a game like Dodonpachi, which requires very precise dodging movements, they don´t just go on and make another game of the same type, but a completely different one in that respect. Even while they are recycling ideas, they take care their games don´t become a too samey experience from the get-go. If people get bored after a few months, that´s okay, because by then they have a sequel in the pipeline.
And of course this is popular because this is what gamers are used to from other genres as well.

In this regard, the era of provenience is pointless: a good engine may last forever, so to speak. Of course, if from a given point on shmups will completely become blatant reashes (Ibara....Battle Garegga 2? And i adore Raizing games, mind you) without any worthy elements of gameplay to be explored, how tiny they may be, well: i'll check what i can still play for score. I surely have left tons of stuff behind.

this is exactly my perspective on the whole issue. I will play Raiden III when it is out, and see whether I need it then, but right now it fails to excite me.

But, surely, i won't mind the crappy graphics, relative to the period of publication, of course.

well, crappy graphics don´t come out of nowhere. Of course there are cases where a company puts all effort into graphics to convince people on a superficial level, but there are just as many cases where graphics aren´t being given much effort, in accordance with the rest of the game, because the game was supposed to be a quick way to make money. This type of shmup designers have been lingering in the PC shareware department for quite a while, but what´s keeping them from entering arcades just as well?

[Recap]

I totally agree with the previous poster, besides the "Cave isn´t too much into advancing technology" part.



G-Para has previewed today the PS2 version with screenshots like this:


http://www.gpara.com/comingsoon/raiden3/0624/index.htm

So the game "looks beautiful" and "the visuals are fine"... Oh well.

[Dylan1CC]

Nice pics. Looks like PS2 is up to Type X. No sprites but it looks like Raiden's art style through and through. I can live with it.

[raiden]

the really good news: the screens are tate!

The article also contains a feature list:
- unlockable Boss Rush and Stage Select modes
- viewable design studies
- option to save replays

[incognoscente]

The bad news. Boss Rush requires 1000 hours experience in the game.


lol@R-Type Delta

[Thunder Force]

Do we know those are PS2 screens?

[raiden]

Do we know those are PS2 screens?

that´s the problem. Nowhere in the article that is stated explicitly. The article is concerned with the PS2 version, so it wouldn´t be fitting to put arcade screens inside, on the other hand this isn´t exactly unheard of either.
The real source of hope, though, lies in the fact that the Raiden property is a bit more well-known around the globe, the game will be published overseas, so they might be willing to give this port a little more effort than GWG.

[Randorama]

Quick reply @Raiden:

i agree, why getting new games if i still have to play old ones? In my personal case, it's because i've eviscerated most of what i wanted to eviscerate, but of course i'm going at a slow pace and playing only what i really enjoy and want to eviscerate. If Raiden III will play (for me) like a kick in the ball, off the trading station!

About graphics (again...), early Toaplan/Cave/Raizing titles weren't mind-boggling, but the gameplay was...i don't really care about jaw-dropping graphics and the same old Gradius, i care more about a slightly new Giga Wing game, even with crappy graphics. But that's because,if i really minded about graphics, i think i would have stopped to early '90s 2d games. Modern stuff is competent, but lacking, i think.

But well, i reason like many other (japanese) arcade players: slightly new challenge, but a source of competition and fun? I'm in.

Maybe.

[FMK]

Super-doubleplay-videos (one guy controlling both ships).

L1: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV1
L2: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV2
L3: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV3
L4: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV4
L5: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV5
L6: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV6
L7: http://www.geocities.jp/moetarou_2000/RAIDEN3DP1779_LV7

[Stormowl]

^^^ that's smokin'.

don't know about the rest of you, but this game looks hot.

[Randorama]

No,no,no, you should say something lunatic about how it does betray the Raiden holy truth and flame like it is the only way to save this world from Evil.


On a serious note (apologies in advance), i think that the programmers wanted to do a Raiden which was also a Viper Phase sequel, a bit like GWG being also a sort of Mars Matrix 2. Now i wonder: Will Shikigami no Shiro 3 be a sort of..."other Alfa System shmup 2 in disguise"?


Ok, ok, a bit on the fanboy side, but i really had this sensation, watching the movies.

[chtimi-CLA]

randorama, look at ketsui or mushihime and tell me in the eyes it looks anything like a 10 years old shooter. i don't understand your zele at defending worse graphics either.