Ico SoTC fans rejoice

[neorichieb1971]

Just goes to show then what an awesome title it is, that is has so many fans and its a technical pile of poo. I'm just glad these games get made. I for one would give SoTC 11/10 even though it falls short in some technical areas. Just the emotion in some of the collossi was fantastic. I especially liked the raging bull one 2 thirds the way through. The relationship between you and Agro, the lonely feeling, the thought of what will happen when you see a collossi.. In just one battle I had so many thought processes it was almost like I was there for real. You can't bash buttons, you have to think and in most cases you need to be cunning. What other games make you do all that?

[Skykid]

I'm standing by my opinions and you guys can stand by yours. I'm finding the tone of this thread sort of upsetting.

[Ex-Cyber]

It's obvious that the vision of SotC was a bit much for PS2, and I think they should probably do the remake for that reason alone if nothing else. I'd probably even buy it if it doesn't force a firmware "upgrade" (fat chance, etc.). That said, the times I've tried to play it, I haven't been able to get into it. Something about it just feels wrong and I don't get a proper connection to it at all.

[Skykid]

it was about the first one sporting the framerate this lousy, the controls this laggy (cinematic or not, a platformer should provide transparent, precise controls; otherwise it's plain broken).

Didn't have a problem with SotC controls either, but the camera coupled with the framerate was awful in places (the framerate was permanently awful).

[Matsunaga]

Everyone gets so defensive when they aren't agreed with.. SOTC is an interesting game with original ideas, but I didn't have much fun playing through it. It was more of a chore, especially with the control issues. Rip God Of War all you want, at least they were fun to play, which in the end is what's most important.

[Obiwanshinobi]

it was about the first one sporting the framerate this lousy, the controls this laggy (cinematic or not, a platformer should provide transparent, precise controls; otherwise it's plain broken).

Didn't have a problem with SotC controls either, but the camera coupled with the framerate was awful in places (the framerate was permanently awful).

SotC's controls were laggy/imprecise because of the framerate, not broken by design. They would work alright if the performance was up for the job. The camera was rigid and uninspiring, though.
Uncharted with its framerate, but without those invisible rubber bands attached to everything would be a broken game as well. As it is, it's a phony platformer, barely a game, but it works. Compromise the framerate and you have to compromise the controls or your game is technically broken. That's what I dislike about this gen. SotC dares to be more of a challenge (doesn't correct your mistakes by "teleporting" you a couple of frames, auto-grabbing etc.), but desperately needs more frames per second.

[Dragoforce]

I hope you guys are joking. If you're not you're fucking stupid.

For me it comes down to the fact that I can't enjoy a game that fails so miserably in the technical part just because some dude claims it got a heart or whatever. For me it's just a broken and ugly game. And I'm smart

Woah, that comment took things a little off course. Drago, not serious man, just poking fun. Each to their own (but it is a great game )

No worries dude I just can't understad what people see in that game. Seeing people who I normaly consider to have good taste speak well of SotC feels weird. Like seeing your friend dating a psycho bitch

[Jockel]

Well the music is epic, i think at least we can all agree on that

[Drum]

We need an 'overrated games' thread to contain the catty remarks and keep them out of this one. It will be glorious.

Also, I didn't like the SotC music - Ico's was way better.

And now, some gameplay vids to put the negativity in perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXlmwfHe1M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTV6V65uc3w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8xfLU4VB-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXex788pSKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLqrurFPacU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmm5a_S_cU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyiCVO-Dgt8

[Obiwanshinobi]

I enjoyed listening to the SotC's music outside of the game more. In game it was like someone playing a looped record every time you encounter a Colossus; you know that it'll switch on when you meet one and that it's gonna loop until you beat the bastard. About as subtle as the camera and the voice of god hint system.
When the music in a game is scarce, I like when it makes certain moments memorable like in:
Ico
Another World
...and so on, not to mention the likes of Silent Hill. Don't recall this kind of musical touches featuring in SotC.

[Skykid]

SotC's controls were laggy/imprecise because of the framerate, not broken by design. They would work alright if the performance was up for the job. The camera was rigid and uninspiring, though.
Uncharted with its framerate, but without those invisible rubber bands attached to everything would be a broken game as well. As it is, it's a phony platformer, barely a game, but it works. Compromise the framerate and you have to compromise the controls or your game is technically broken. That's what I dislike about this gen. SotC dares to be more of a challenge (doesn't correct your mistakes by "teleporting" you a couple of frames, auto-grabbing etc.), but desperately needs more frames per second.

I pretty much get you've got a thing about framerates. To be honest, I've never been well informed enough on that side of things to have paid it any mind when I first got SOTC. It was something I completely ignored. I realised at times there were some issues with the camera, the controls etc. but they were issues that barely registered against the epic fun I was having playing the game and becoming engrossed in its haunting world.

Framerate was the last thing on my mind when I discovered an underground colleseum, fought a stone giant or rode alongside a sand monster on horseback only to jump onto it. I was way too absorbed to even think about tech flaws. When I put it on in my Egret 2 for the first time recently I still wasn't fussed.

For me SOTC is a game of moments tied together with a brilliantly executed silent narrative. I don't think my opinion of it is because I chose to believe the hype. I never believe the hype when it comes to games, and I end up hating most of them.

[evil_ash_xero]

I just played SOTC last year, for the first time. I was late to the game.
I didn't notice the framerate issues, but I noticed it did seem to get a bit choppy time to time. It didn't affect my enjoyment of the game at all. It's a great game.

I REALLY hope that they put out a PS3 version of this though. It looks a little "jaggy" to me now, and of course the framerate could be fixed.

Well, I hope they release a LOT of GOWC type compilations, but I think SOTC would be one that would benefit the most.

But i'm gonna totally disagree with anyone who says it's boring or sucks or whatever.

[Skykid]

But i'm gonna totally disagree with anyone who says it's boring or sucks or whatever.

Well looking over this thread I realise that the positive is the majority over the negative minority. That makes me feel better about the fate of gaming a little. If everyone ragged on games as good as SOTC we'd really be in the shit (and with the rapid westernisation of mainstream Japanese gaming we're unfortunately half way there already.)

[neorichieb1971]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81gCxvUo-dg

Epic 1080hd greatness. Although I would hope the PS3 to far far push beyond those visuals.

[Obiwanshinobi]

But i'm gonna totally disagree with anyone who says it's boring or sucks or whatever.

Well looking over this thread I realise that the positive is the majority over the negative minority. That makes me feel better about the fate of gaming a little. If everyone ragged on games as good as SOTC we'd really be in the shit (and with the rapid westernisation of mainstream Japanese gaming we're unfortunately half way there already.)

I'm not very excited about this gen big boy's console games, but from my point of view the era when people make games of Cave Story and Hydorah quality, then give them away for free, is far from new video game crash. The Spirit of Awesome is clearly alive and kicking. Of course you can't expect of bedroom developers alone to satisfy all your gaming needs. If - as they say - computers were the LSD of the nineties, these days maistream gaming seems to be in a state akin to pop music in late seventies. So grand and overproduced, waiting for its own punk rock bomb to explode.
I'm not so sure about "the rapid westernisation of mainstream Japanese gaming", though. Isn't mainstream Japanese gaming all about the PSP Monster Hunter and handhelds in general now?

[GaijinPunch]

Does pscx2 upscale all 3D games? I wonder if the 3 or 4 I have would look better.

[linko9]

Yeah, it does, but you'll only get full speed if your computer's good enough. For SotC, you need a pretty nice rig to run it at higher resolutions. Other 3D games, like FFX and DQ8 run pretty well on newer machines.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Does pscx2 upscale all 3D games? I wonder if the 3 or 4 I have would look better.

I don't think it upscales them the way current-gen consoles scale sub-p720 graphics up to p720. Rather renders vector graphics in any resolution your video card supports (pretty much every emulator worth its salt does it).
As for looking better, depends on your TV/monitor. Some games (such as Ico) will always look best on a CRT SDTV in lo-res (considering how generally bad the PS2 texturing was, high resolution will only make it more apparent). On the other hand cel-shaded stuff (Rez, Ōkami​, Z.O.E.2) can benefit from high resolution prominently (Z.O.E.2 could use framerate improvement too).
Gradius V, Contra: Shattered Soldier, Z.O.E. and Another Century's Episode 3 should look decent.
If you only have an LCD, native (high) resolution will always look better than sub-native on it.

PS2 games I'd gladly play in high resolution:
Ōkami​ (with properly upscaled sprites and without any glitches, that is)
Z.O.E.2

PS2 games worth keeping your CRT SDTV for:
Ico
MGS3

Bear in mind that many PS2 games already have PC versions running in high resolutions. All the last gen Ubisoft games were the best on the PC (PoP, Splinter Cell, Rayman 3, BG&E, XIII).

[GaijinPunch]

As for looking better, depends on your TV/monitor. Some games (such as Ico) will always look best on a CRT SDTV in lo-res (considering how generally bad the PS2 texturing was, high resolution will only make it more apparent).

I played both of those games on an arcade monitor. Some high res filtering could've helped them. That video looks like it would be potentially better than what I played on.

PS2 games worth keeping your CRT SDTV for:

And the rest of my collection which are by and large 2d.

[Obiwanshinobi]

PS2 games worth keeping your CRT SDTV for:

And the rest of my collection which are by and large 2d.

Well, that goes without saying.

[Skykid]

I'm not so sure about "the rapid westernisation of mainstream Japanese gaming", though. Isn't mainstream Japanese gaming all about the PSP Monster Hunter and handhelds in general now?

With regards to Japanese companies attempting to emulate the success of western titles with similar game design. See Epic games have just opened their Japanese studio and there's some soundbyte going around in the press that basically suggests they're hoping to teach the Japanese how to make a decent FPS.

There will always be Japanese style gaming, but there will always be profit margins too.

[Ex-Cyber]

I actually played through SotC over the past couple of days. Overall it's brilliant, but I'm kind of incredulous when people dismiss its bugs as non-issues (I'd say play the game anyway, but be prepared to deal with some bullshit).The physics of Wander's movement is pretty inconsistent, and there are a ton of clipping and collision bugs, most of which end up being cosmetic but sometimes affect gameplay. Agro's AI is lovely... when it works. When it breaks, it's infuriating. The lighting in the field is bizarre; light seems to appear and disappear almost at random. I lost count of the number of times I saw something in the distance that disappeared when the lighting decided to change it from super-bright or super-dark to the same as its surroundings. I can completely understand that people are willing to overlook these sorts of problems for the sake of the overall work, but it's a clear lack of finish that nobody would bother to defend if the concept were as half-baked as the code.

SotC dares to be more of a challenge (doesn't correct your mistakes by "teleporting" you a couple of frames, auto-grabbing etc.),

It will teleport you a bit when you're just a bit off from grabbing something. It's just somewhat inconsistent about it; sometimes you get no teleport, sometimes you get teleported across a gap and turned around in a single frame (okay, that only happened once in my playthrough, but it was pretty jarring).

Ico and Silent Hill remind me of each other in the camera department (in both the camera seems alive in places, like an invisible character)

At least a couple times, I got the distinct impression that SotC's camera was being wielded by a drunk cameraman. A couple other times, I got the displeasure of being in a situation with a "standard" view - I could move the camera freely, but the moment I let go of the stick it would quickly pull back to the "proper" perspective (rather than, say, slowly drifting back if I left the controller alone for a few seconds).

[GaijinPunch]

See Epic games have just opened their Japanese studio and there's some soundbyte going around in the press that basically suggests they're hoping to teach the Japanese how to make a decent FPS.

Even w/ a large portion of current gen releases being western, there's still only a handful that become Japanese household names. But what do I know. I think both sides are making mainly crap these days.

[neorichieb1971]

Agreed, its all crap, bar one or two gems. Recyled trash that was bad the first time. I'm glad I keep all my olden goldies.

[Skykid]

Agreed, its all crap, bar one or two gems. Recyled trash that was bad the first time. I'm glad I keep all my olden goldies.

Even w/ a large portion of current gen releases being western, there's still only a handful that become Japanese household names. But what do I know. I think both sides are making mainly crap these days.

I agree with both of you. Having the displeasure of sifting through a wealth of piss poor current gen tripe in the pursuit of something that holds my attention for more than fifteen minutes is painful.

But whatever. It's the consumer that got us here by voting with their wallets. Richie probably won't like it, but I still trace the early changes in consumer tastes back to the global success of the original Playstation. Not that that's Sony's fault, like I said, profit margin is everything and technology stands still for no-one. If that means people want more Grand Theft Auto, Syphon Filter and Destruction Derby, then that's what they'll get.

[Obiwanshinobi]

SotC dares to be more of a challenge (doesn't correct your mistakes by "teleporting" you a couple of frames, auto-grabbing etc.),

It will teleport you a bit when you're just a bit off from grabbing something. It's just somewhat inconsistent about it; sometimes you get no teleport, sometimes you get teleported across a gap and turned around in a single frame (okay, that only happened once in my playthrough, but it was pretty jarring).

I thought it was frameskipping, but come to think of it, with better framerate the animation still looks dodgy. The most overall elegant animations I saw in a 3D "cinematic" platformer would be those of the 2003 Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (shame about the characters' mugs, though), even if the body language thing wasn't quite up there with Ico. I'm not even talkin' the ridiculous looking combat (although that slicing move during the wall running looked sweet). Of course the platforms in SotC tend to move in a way the platforms in PoP hardly ever do. This must've complicated the animators' job. I must admit there wasn't a platformer quite like SotC before.

[GaijinPunch]

But whatever. It's the consumer that got us here

I've been saying this until I'm blue in the face. Everyone wants to blame Sega for "selling out". Shit... the game company of the early 80's is long gone in every form. Capcom, Taito, and Konami are all still around, but are a far cry from what they once were.

[neorichieb1971]

The problem isn't that they changed, its the fact that they ALL changed into the same thing.

Resident evil 5 - Co op play, less RE more Gears of war
Castlevania Lords of Shadow - Less CV, more uncharted with gothic caped overtones

I'm surprised Pacman isn't an FPS game yet.

Not to mention copy cat games. You get one music or dance game, the next minute Best buy has a section for it because its so big.



Skykid,

I don't care who is responsible for the state of gaming today. The fact is there is room for everything we could ever want. I've always felt its the responsibility of the industry to generate produce for all tastes. A super market doesn't stop selling tomatoes because cucumbers are more in vogue. The games industry shouldn't be any different. I always thought nextgen meant a couple of things - It meant

A) The genres that currently exist would get better
B) New frontiers would be reached, making new exciting new genres.

Unfortunately "nextgen" did little for the pre existing genres of A. The new genres of B literally became household names that everyone else wanted to copy. And I don't see us getting out of this groove, or even the ability to do so. I went to blu-ray.com recently and put up this argument and got laughed out of the place.

[Rob]

Resident evil 5 - Co op play, less RE more Gears of war

Don't blame Gears of War for that crap.

[neorichieb1971]

As for SoTC having bad code. I would rewrite that and say "its the best code that could of run on PS2". Ueda has said time and again he pushed the console to its limits. Did he hit bullseye with every creative decision made? No.

Sometimes to make something work so so is better than not having it at all. SNES 3D was atrocious to say the least, but at the time it was full of praise, a step forward.. You can't make all steps super fammy dammy dosey you know.

The PS3's power will allow for something way beyond words, but I think in the end we will get pollish and sheen, just like GOW.

If the Last Guardian engine is similar in design I don't know why SoTC and especially Ico can't be written into it. Ico is such a basic game that a track editor sort of philosophy could be done with it "Wall here, tree here" etc etc.