360- best shmup system since???

[sideshow]

I give the crown to the PS2. Even though I have neglected it for a couple years now, it has proven to have the best variety of shmups and I can install them all to my internal 200GB hard drive and just pick and play with minimal load times and no disc swapping; assuming your PS2 is modded. The PS2 absolutely owned the first decade of the 2000's and is probably my favorite system of all time thus far.

[MachineAres 1CC]

but not nearly the massive quantity some people seem to hint at.

I tend to prefer QUALITY over quantity, Something the DC does with aplomb.

If you wanted to play a poor mans port you could play Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Gunbird 2, Trizeal and the Milestone games on the PS2 but seriously unless you like games processed through a permanent brown filter and crap video output with added framerate issues why would you?

This. PS2 and PS1 had some decent titles on it, but the games run like absolute dogshit or are toned down on most qualities so much that they're not even worth your time any more than a quick boot-up of MAME would be for those titles. Dreamcast had some good stuff for its time, but a vast majority of the best shmups for the system are already ported to 360 or Wii with better graphics and control with more features. Bad ports of games where I'm used to playing better versions bug the living hell out of me, so when a game gets the opportunity to be presented in all its glory with no technical problems, that means a lot to me.

I think 360 is currently the king of shmups, period, which no one else seems to want to agree, and especially after 2010, this will be even moreso with a ton more on the way right now (RayStorm, SNR DUO, Ketsui, Guwange, DS2, KOF Sky Stage, and more than likely a bunch more before the year's end.) I own every shmup for the system so far, retail or downloadable, and I've had more fun with these titles than I can even express. These newer titles along with all of the previous ones on the system run mostly flawlessly or even better than the original PCB and have a lot more features to go along with them. I'm also a stickler for how much effort was put into the art design of shmups, and having the power of HD graphics to back these games lets the developers present them exactly as they want them to be seen without any restrictions like most consoles in the past were rife with. Dreamcast did a great job, but the need to pull out your DC and play those games is getting less and less as the great games of its day keep getting re-released with better editions on modern, more powerful systems.

Argue away.

[BIL]

PS2 and PS1 had some decent titles on it, but the games run like absolute dogshit or are toned down on most qualities so much that they're not even worth your time any more than a quick boot-up of MAME would be for those titles.

Which "dogshit" ports are these?

[MachineAres 1CC]

PS2 and PS1 had some decent titles on it, but the games run like absolute dogshit or are toned down on most qualities so much that they're not even worth your time any more than a quick boot-up of MAME would be for those titles.

Which "dogshit" ports are these?

The ones Kron mentioned in the post I quoted, for starters. And most of the PS1 ports I have of shmups are pretty bad, including Raiden Project, Shienryu, and DonPachi is pretty bad, if I remember right, and no others are particularly coming to mind, but its been a while. I haven't played a lot of others simply because I don't really like the game to begin with, but those few PS1 games I have played soured my interest in really exploring ports of a few other games I do enjoy.

[BIL]

So... Naomi games (and two STV titles including Souky) anyone serious about would own on DC/SS. The worse GB2 port is a shame, but Dragon Blaze equalises that.

1942
1943
1943 Kai
Dragon Saber
Dragon Spirit
Gradius*
Gradius II*
Gun.Smoke
Life Force*
R-Type*
R-Type II*
Raiden
Raiden II
Raiden DX
Raystorm
Salamander*
Salamander 2
Sexy Parodius

DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou
Dragon Blaze
ESPGaluda
G-Darius
Gradius III*
Gradius IV
Homura
Psyvariar: Medium Unit
Psyvariar Revision
Raiden III
Rayforce
Sengoku Ace
Sengoku Blade
Shikigami no Shiro

*with Wait Control

That's more than enough good ports to put both machines well clear of "shitty port machine" status.

edit: and what's wrong with Raiden Project?

[MachineAres 1CC]

That's more than enough good ports to put both machines well clear of "shitty port machine" status.

edit: and what's wrong with Raiden Project?

Unfortunately, I don't care much for most of the games you listed, or already have superior versions on another system (PC, MAME, Dreamcast, 360, PSP) so it doesn't do much to convince me otherwise, for my own interests. The only thing that doesn't quite fit in either of those categories for me would be ESPgaluda, though the MAME emulation of it works rather well and I don't doubt we'll see an XBLA port of it by the end of this year or early next, judging by the lists CAVE showed at the 360 Shooting Festa last week, so again it doesn't bother me much.

And Raiden Project just seems to have bad controls for some reason, I've never been happy with the way it feels, its hard to explain exactly why but every time I've popped it in during the last few years, I play about half a level and turn it off.

[BIL]

That's odd, Raiden Project feels fine to me. Never seen anyone else complain about it either, even some very high scorers on this board.

And it's not about whether you like the games, it's about how well they run on the consoles. That's the objective part of discussing a machine's shooter capabilities.

ESPGaluda isn't in MAME. I don't know if you mean PCSX2. And emulators often introduce input lag and other issues that compromise shooters, not to mention making it difficult to ensure a level playing field in score competition. There's no advantage in the PSP versions of any games there, either. And there aren't any DC ports available for any games I posted. 360... do you mean DOJ? The 360 port is fucked up enough that I'd never use it for White Label.

[MachineAres 1CC]

That's odd, Raiden Project feels fine to me. Never seen anyone else complain about it either, even some very high scorers on this board.

Awesome.

And it's not about whether you like the games, it's about how well they run on the consoles. That's the objective part of discussing a machine's shooter capabilities.

It is to me. I mean to say that of the games that I could've enjoyed playing on the system if they were ported well, most of them turned out not to be so, I didn't mean to claim the systems as a whole are terrible for all shmup ports, I'm sure they handle plenty of the games just fine.

ESPGaluda isn't in MAME. I don't know if you mean PCSX2.

I meant ESPrade, I don't know why I was thinking ESPgaluda at the time. And again, I can go without one game.

And emulators often introduce input lag and other issues that compromise shooters, not to mention making it difficult to ensure a level playing field in score competition.

I don't care, I don't play shmups to get my name on high score lists around the world, I play to have fun and challenge myself, not by the standards of others.

There's no advantage in the PSP versions of any games there, either.

There is when they run really well and I can run the PSP through my large TV.

360... do you mean DOJ? The 360 port is fucked up enough that I'd never use it for White Label.

See my earlier reply starting with "I don't care." And I wasn't just referring to DOJ, R-Type 1 and 2 are both on 360 as well as soon to be RayStorm.

[BIL]

Well, next time you describe consoles as "dog shit" for shooter ports, be more specific. Most of the games I listed are widely regarded as "decent" at the very least. Maybe you shouldn't make those proclamations anyway, if you're happy just mucking about with shooters regardless of how well they're running. Sengoku Ace and Blade have horrendous input lag in MAME, to name a couple affected titles. Raiden II and DX don't run at all.

R-Type I & II aren't any better on 360 than on PS1. Talking about the arcade games here (see also Raystorm, which has a perfect PS2 port as well). And I can play the Konami / Capcom PSP ports on my TV just fine via PS1, without digging out a PSP and the necessary display for no real gain to sit in front of the TV anyway (Gradius IV apparently runs worse on PSP than PS2, although I guess that's neither here nor there in this discussion).

[Rob]

the great [DC] games of its day keep getting re-released with better editions on modern, more powerful systems.

As cool as it would be to get better editions of great DC shooters, this hasn't happened.

[Pirate1019]

the great [DC] games of its day keep getting re-released with better editions on modern, more powerful systems.

As cool as it would be to get better editions of great DC shooters, this hasn't happened.

No kidding. Where did you get your 360 port of Mars Matrix?

[MachineAres 1CC]

the great [DC] games of its day keep getting re-released with better editions on modern, more powerful systems.

As cool as it would be to get better editions of great DC shooters, this hasn't happened.

I'd have to disagree. Better ports of Ikaruga, Chaos Field, Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Trizeal, Radirgy, Karous, and Triggerheart Excelica have all been done.

[Pirate1019]

the great [DC] games of its day keep getting re-released with better editions on modern, more powerful systems.

As cool as it would be to get better editions of great DC shooters, this hasn't happened.

I'd have to disagree. Better ports of Ikaruga, Chaos Field, Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Trizeal, Radirgy, Karous, and Triggerheart Excelica have all been done.

How many of these qualify as great? Sounds to me like you're just listing all of them.

[Rob]

Multi-platform releases weren't anything special then (Shikigami II was first ported to Gamecube). The good stuff is 99-03. Of those games, the only notable modern system release would be Ikaruga, except I don't notice an improvement. It's just another release of a game most shooter fans played years back.

[MachineAres 1CC]

How many of these qualify as great? Sounds to me like you're just listing all of them.

*applause* You have an opinion. I actually like all of those games a lot except Ikaruga, but thanks for enlightening me that you have an opinion. Giga Wing and Mars Matrix get old kinda fast to me.

Of those games, the only notable modern system release would be Ikaruga, except I don't notice an improvement. It's just another release of a game most shooter fans played years back.

You probably wouldn't notice much improvement in the gameplay itself if you're playing on a 4:3 television with regular AV cables, you're probably right, On the other hand, the graphics being displayed in 720p when you're running on HDTV and being much more sharp and colorful is really nice, as well as downloading replays and having online leaderboards as well as achievements to try for are also a part of the package that was not available on the other releases. So yeah, nothing improved.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Seems to me that PSX has got more perfect, near-perfect and enhanced (optional widened screen in Konami horizontals makes them the ultimate versions; if only PS2 didn't have compatibility issues with Gradius Gaiden and Gradius II...) ports than Xbox 360, and its fair share of neat exclusives (has 360 got even one?). This is something you can judge objectively (i.e. quality and quantity of the ports; how much use you have for these games is purely subjective). BIL hasn't even mentioned Cotton, DDP, Sonic Wings, Parodius Deluxe and Oshaberi, X-Multiply and Image Fight, Wolf Fang, Wonder 3, Kaitei Taisensou and the very first, little known Parodius on Konami Antiques MSX Collection Vol.3 for a good measure. I can't see how come, say, MAME delivers a fatal blow to these ports, especially if you want to play on a CRT SDTV.

[Pirate1019]

as well as downloading replays and having online leaderboards as well as achievements to try for are also a part of the package that was not available on the other releases. So yeah, nothing improved.

Replays
Leaderboards

The achievements are new, but they're also completely boring and uninspired. The 360 port doesn't do anything but let you play the game again with a different controller.

720p woo.

[indutrial]

720p woo.

No amount of high-definition visuals could make me think better of the art design of Ikaruga. As for R-Type Dimensions, being resold games that were already ported successfully doesn't make any sense to me. Just more catering to American gamers' irrational fear of being exposed to pixels and sprites. I'd give up the spit-shined version in a heartbeat if XBLA would give me any 1990s arcade shmups, especially if it were one of the half-dozen great Irem games I've never played outside of MAME.

[Ghegs]

R-Type I & II aren't any better on 360 than on PS1.

They are, in fact, a bit worse. This is most evident in II, where some enemies are simply missing (even in the very first stage) when compared to the PS1 version, therefore making the game quite a bit easier. And according to Twiddle the first game has some bugs in it (like not being able to kill the final boss with Force) when played with the non-enhanced graphics.

360 version of Ikaruga also has its problems.

[Kron]

You probably wouldn't notice much improvement in the gameplay itself if you're playing on a 4:3 television with regular AV cables, you're probably right, On the other hand, the graphics being displayed in 720p when you're running on HDTV and being much more sharp and colorful is really nice.

Its even nicer if you played it back in 2002 through VGA and 4:3 since it was designed that way. Since 720p is a widescreen resolution and few people are going to tate a 40" widescreen theres a very high probability you'll notice no visual difference whatsoever.

[-Bridget-]

I have to agree with the idea that currently, as these go (not counting the PC here, which has a bazillion shmups) the 360 is king.

Number one, for me, it has Cave's games. Just Futari alone caused me to buy one of these, and DeathSmiles made me buy another one (curse you, Cave, for making me spend money!). Galuda 2 is grand, and Im looking forward to Ketsui and DeathSmiles 2 in a couple of months.

Since Im such a Cave fan, that's a major selling point.

But looking past that, I've got about 70 games on there currently. Some of these are disc-based... like Futari, or the Raiden games, and a bunch of them are downloaded titles, wether they be Arcade titles, or Indie games. Either way, ALOT of these 70 games are all shmups. And there's more of that genre that I dont have yet.

And yeah, not all of them are perfect, but for the most part, I find all of the ports to be great (with the exception of DOJ, bah).

When comparing it to other consoles, well...

While I like the PS3 more as a console, it just doesnt have very many of these. Oh it has a few that are pretty great... I love Stardust and Everyday Shooter, and there's a couple of others, but they're mostly Arena types, very few scrolling types. Overall though the selection is so very much smaller.

The Wii is.... the Wii. I am *not* a Nintendo fan. I used to be, but not anymore. That being said, it still has a few good ones. The Milestone collection, Shikigami no Shiro 3 (one of my favorites), Gradius Rebirth, and some others. Im not counting the VC games, because chances are, whatever it is, I have it in it's original form already, or can easily get such an actual physical copy.

The PS2.... I hate the thing. I hate it alot. Oh I HAVE one, and have numerous games for it, but I've never encountered a shoddier system. Oh the CONTROLLER is freaking perfect. But the console itself is junk. I've been through TEN of them. *TEN*. Some died to the Dreaded DRE. Some merely fizzled out over time. One of them died because it fell exactly ONE FOOT and landed on a corner. Another started scratching discs to death. And so on. While the thing has some good shmups, to me, it's just not worth putting up with. And really, the shmups on there.... that Im aware of.... for the most part arent THAT great. Oh, there's the 4 Cave ports, but... I dont currently have a modded PS2, so I cant play those.... and for Mushi and Galuda, their sequels are finally in my posession, and I like those even more than the originals anyway. DOJ of course is also on the 360. Ibara I do miss though. Other than that, the only shmup I really do on that thing is Shiki 2, an all time favorite of mine. Frankly, if it wasnt for that game, I mighta gotten rid of the stupid thing.

I cant say much for the DC, because I dont have one. I did get a Japanese Saturn though, and am already finding it to be shmup-tastic. Guardian Force. That's all I even need to say here. Freaking love that game. Also, awesome controller.


So yes, Im going with the 360. Not my favorite in terms of consoles, but the sheer amount of shmups it has is what does it. I love it when people say that this genre "is dead" or something like that. I just point out the game list on the thing to them. Love doing that, it's funny every time.

[Pirate1019]

Your must buy bootleg PS2s from the shady hobo out behind Best Buy or something. I've had exactly one PS2, a slim model, and it's held up fine, despite paper-tape modding it, dropping it, hauling it across hell's half acre in poorly secure bags, electrical surges and power outages, more dropping, and probably more than one case of overheating or extreme high / low temperature. I honestly don't even know why I was ever worried about breaking the warranty by opening it.

[MachineAres 1CC]

as well as downloading replays and having online leaderboards as well as achievements to try for are also a part of the package that was not available on the other releases. So yeah, nothing improved.

Replays
Leaderboards

The achievements are new, but they're also completely boring and uninspired. The 360 port doesn't do anything but let you play the game again with a different controller.

720p woo.

Website leaderboards are lame as hell. Leaderboards that are integrated into the game itself on the official company servers which also link the score to it's replay that can be viewed in-game is much more official and interesting. I'm not even getting into petty horseshit about graphics and high-res display, it'll be like talking to a brick wall. Like grandpa who cries about how they "don't make 'em like they used to" or about how his black & white TV from 1962 is as good as a new 60" HDTV.

[Rob]

Website leaderboards are lame as hell.

Community and discussion. It's more enjoyable to play against people I know (in a way) and talk about strategy rather than copying it off of a replay. Auto-updating is nicer, though (and if you are worried about cheaters - but again, when people know each other it shouldn't be an issue).

Ikaruga's xbla leaderboards are obviously also limited to one late version of the game and people who still give a shit about Ikaruga in 2008+. Basically no one.

[Pirate1019]

official company servers

...burn out or get shut down.

[MachineAres 1CC]

official company servers

...burn out or get shut down.

Like all servers and websites.

[Pirate1019]

official company servers

...burn out or get shut down.

Like all servers and websites.

I'm not going to be the one disappointed when Microsoft shuts down 360 live support when the xbox 720 is released. Gotta love when your data is at the whim of profitability.