PS1 Shmups Article - It's UP! Thanks all! :D
What happened to Two Tenkaku?
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
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Dragoforce
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BulletMagnet
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Hey, it is up - figures I'm the last to know, heh heh. Thanks for the compliments all, and to all who helped me finish it (I think I mentioned everyone at the end, but if I missed you, please let me know)!
I'll email RB and see if I can write it back up and have him sneak it in, as well as make a few other minor fixes to the article.
This is a really epic fail on my part. You know what, I remember writing up a section on this (I own the freakin' thing after all), but I'll bet this is what I did - at some point I decided to move it to a different part of the article, so I Cut it, but before I Pasted it I saw something else that needed work and got involved with that...and forgot to paste the Two-Tenkaku section back in. And somehow completely neglected to notice it was gone.What happened to Two Tenkaku?
I'll email RB and see if I can write it back up and have him sneak it in, as well as make a few other minor fixes to the article.
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BulletMagnet
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Great list. You did a great job.
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection
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A Black Falcon
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Great article, lots of detail, really interesting reading... I have to mention a few things, though.
1) Midway Collection 1 was indeed on PSX, just under a different name.
2) Sol Divide's US release is actually just as horribly broken as Mobile Light Force was.
3) Several things about "Mobile Light Force"'s port you forget -- it's XS Games, not UFO Interactive, and you forget to mention one of the most important feature changes, that they removed saving from the US release! Also, Mobile Light Force 1 for PSX and MLF2 for PS2 were released at the same time, not "several years apart".
First, the "Midway Collection 1" did indeed exist on Playstation, except it was called "Williams Arcade's Greatest Hits", because Midway was part of Williams at the time and they used that name on many of their games around that time. The collection was called "Williams Arcade's Greatest Hits" on SNES, Genesis, and Playstation, but "Midway Presents Arcade's Greatest Hits" on Saturn (it may have come out later in 1996 than the Playstation version, after Williams and Midway separated? I don't know...). On the PC it was "Williams Arcade Classics". Later versions included "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Volume 1" on Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast (which are not the same in contents, despite sharing the same name).
Ignoring the titles and instead looking at games included, you see a different picture. The PC, Playstation, Saturn, and Dreamcast versions contain six games, Joust, Robotron 2084, Defender, Defender II, Bubbles, and Sinistar. Don't bother with the Dreamcast version, though -- while it contains all the same games, and might have better emulation, it has none of the making-of videos that are one of the most interesting parts about the PC, Playstation and Saturn original! Disappointing, Midway... Midway Arcade Treasures 1 (GC, Xbox, PS2) brings the videos back, though, for the most part, which was great.
The SNES and Genesis versions don't have Bubbles or any of the extras (making-of videos with the creators, etc), but otherwise contain the other five titles. They also have no batteries inside so they don't save highscores.
The Nintendo 64 version is unique, however, with two exclusive (at the time) games as well as four in the other collections -- it has Joust, Defender, Root Beer Tapper, Spy Hunter, Sinistar, and Robotron 2084. It doesn't have the making-of videos, of course.
For completion, Midway's other pre-MAT arcade collections, first, in addition to the Playstation version you mentioned in the article, there was also an identical PC version of "Midway Presents Arcade's Greatest Hits: The Midway Collection 2" (Blaster, BurgerTime, Joust 2: Survival of the Fittest, Moon Patrol, Root Beer Tapper, Splat!, Spy Hunter). In addition, there are "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Volume 2" for Dreamcast (Gauntlet, Rampage, SpyHunter, Rampage, Moon Patrol, 720), and a truly awful GBA version of "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits" (with terrible ports of Robotron, Sinistar, Defender, and Joust), before the MAT series began. Oh, and there was also a late (1997) SNES version of "Arcade's Greatest Hits - The Atari Collection 1", which actually included all six games of the PSX/Saturn game mentioned in the article, instead of dropping one like the the SNES and Genesis versions of the first Midway collection! All it's missing is the video interviews with the creators... and highscore saving, there' still no battery backup.
Anyway, getting back to the first collection for Playstation, none of these games are traditional shmups, of course, but Defender, Defender II, and Sinistar rate a mention, at least...
... Why couldn't they have used more standardized naming for these things, it's horribly confusing...
Atari Anniversary Edition Redux has nothing to do with Midway, it was published by "Atari" (Infogrames). The developer was the same, though, of course, given that Digital Eclipse made all of the collections in this list here, so listing them together does make sense. But the publishers were different, due to Infogrames' wrapping up of all classic Atari game rights (ie all home console games and all pre-1984 arcade titles) by the early years of this decade. It is still a bit messy though, with Infogrames/Atari having the 1975-1984 part of the Atari Games arcade library, and Midway having the 1984-2003 part... but that's a lot less confusing than it used to be.
Second, and much more importantly, your Sol Divide section is missing any comments on the game-breaking changes XS Games made to the title for its US release. This US release, in 2003, came over 4 1/2 years after the original mid 1998 Japanese releases, which explains why the Saturn version didn't come over here... a July 1998 Japan released Saturn game? No way was that coming here. Even the Playstation version only did in the system's last days here, after Sony eased up on their 2d game restrictions on the system... but unfortunately, XS Games did an absolutely terrible job. Indeed, Sol Divide was probably broken just as badly as Gunbird/Mobile Light Force, overall... First, like with the US release of Gunbird (Mobile Light Force) or that European version of Sonic Wings Special, while the original Japanese version had saving, the Western release had the saving removed.
Second, XS Games also forgot to translate the endings, so they are all presented in full, untranslated Japanese. The intro, Original Mode item names and descriptions, etc, are translated, but not the Arcade Mode endings. The endings are text-only, so there isn't any voice acting to give you a hint of what's goiing on or anything, just pictures and Japanese text, at the end of a game which they did translate the intro to. That's just cruel...
The lack of saving is the worse problem, though. While this would be annoying in Sonic Wings Special, as you describe, for the loss of hidden characters, and also annoying in Mobile Light Force, where the other modifications were even worse than the removal of high-score save, in Sol Divide it is absolutely CRIPPLING, because it utterly destroys the entire point and purpose of the existence of Original Mode. Arcade Mode only loses the high-score table, so it's not as bad there, but Original Mode is pretty much completely broken. I got the US version and while I did like the game, I couldn't understand why Original Mode existed. What's the point in going out there, making progress, etc, when you just lose everything as soon as you turn off the game? It didn't make sense...
Only once I learned that the original Japanese versions (both PSX and Saturn) had saving and allowed you to save your character data (items, progress reached through the game, etc) did Original Mode make sense... in fact, in the Japanese versions you even have SAVE POINTS at points along your journey (at the places where you choose between two different paths), so you can continue from those points with all your equipped stuff when you die instead of having to lose all your equipped items and start the whole game over again from the beginning every time you die, as is true in the US version! And, of course, it actually lets you come back later, instead of having to play through the entire Original Mode in one sitting and losing everything when you turn off the game. It was when I realized all this that I got about as angry at XS Games about Sol Divide as everyone is about how badly they mauled Gunbird. The Japanese-language endings are bad enough, but the saving problem... wow. Truly awful.
Last... well, I think I covered the "Mobile Light Force was actually published by XS Games in the US and Europe" thing already. Don't blame those who are not guilty... It's XS that published this, Sol Divide, and Mobile Light Force 2, all in March 2003. Sol Divide was actually the first of the three released, the other two on the same day two weeks later (On that note, given the removal of saving from the two PS1 games, we're pretty lucky that it wasn't removed from "Mobile Light Force 2"!). Obviously, people didn't notice the changes in Sol Divide, and XS Games only got the message "don't mess with these games!" after the two MLF games were released. They did learn, though, and as you say, when they released Castle Shikigami 2 the next year (2004), it was a fine port. Hilariously bad English, but a fine port. But anyway, on "Mobile Light Force".
Honestly, while the other changes made to Gunbird are horrible and really annoying, I could take the renamed characters, removed tate mode, and the complete removal of the (quite funny) story, if the core gameplay was intact. It's the gameplay that really matters, after all, much more than any of those factors... and while removing tate mode impacts the gameplay, I don't have a rotated monitor so I wouldn't be using it anyway, so I don't mind that so much. Sadly, though, the gameplay modifications and the removal of high-score saving kill the last shreds of quality the game has... oh, I played through it and had a bit of fun, but without a plot or highscore save in a game that's supposed to have both it seriously suffers. You do say it's not recommended... but you don't mention what I would call the most important reason why, the removal of the save feature.
Overall though, great article, for sure. Must have taken a long time to put together.
1) Midway Collection 1 was indeed on PSX, just under a different name.
2) Sol Divide's US release is actually just as horribly broken as Mobile Light Force was.
3) Several things about "Mobile Light Force"'s port you forget -- it's XS Games, not UFO Interactive, and you forget to mention one of the most important feature changes, that they removed saving from the US release! Also, Mobile Light Force 1 for PSX and MLF2 for PS2 were released at the same time, not "several years apart".
First, the "Midway Collection 1" did indeed exist on Playstation, except it was called "Williams Arcade's Greatest Hits", because Midway was part of Williams at the time and they used that name on many of their games around that time. The collection was called "Williams Arcade's Greatest Hits" on SNES, Genesis, and Playstation, but "Midway Presents Arcade's Greatest Hits" on Saturn (it may have come out later in 1996 than the Playstation version, after Williams and Midway separated? I don't know...). On the PC it was "Williams Arcade Classics". Later versions included "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Volume 1" on Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast (which are not the same in contents, despite sharing the same name).
Ignoring the titles and instead looking at games included, you see a different picture. The PC, Playstation, Saturn, and Dreamcast versions contain six games, Joust, Robotron 2084, Defender, Defender II, Bubbles, and Sinistar. Don't bother with the Dreamcast version, though -- while it contains all the same games, and might have better emulation, it has none of the making-of videos that are one of the most interesting parts about the PC, Playstation and Saturn original! Disappointing, Midway... Midway Arcade Treasures 1 (GC, Xbox, PS2) brings the videos back, though, for the most part, which was great.
The SNES and Genesis versions don't have Bubbles or any of the extras (making-of videos with the creators, etc), but otherwise contain the other five titles. They also have no batteries inside so they don't save highscores.
The Nintendo 64 version is unique, however, with two exclusive (at the time) games as well as four in the other collections -- it has Joust, Defender, Root Beer Tapper, Spy Hunter, Sinistar, and Robotron 2084. It doesn't have the making-of videos, of course.
For completion, Midway's other pre-MAT arcade collections, first, in addition to the Playstation version you mentioned in the article, there was also an identical PC version of "Midway Presents Arcade's Greatest Hits: The Midway Collection 2" (Blaster, BurgerTime, Joust 2: Survival of the Fittest, Moon Patrol, Root Beer Tapper, Splat!, Spy Hunter). In addition, there are "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Volume 2" for Dreamcast (Gauntlet, Rampage, SpyHunter, Rampage, Moon Patrol, 720), and a truly awful GBA version of "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits" (with terrible ports of Robotron, Sinistar, Defender, and Joust), before the MAT series began. Oh, and there was also a late (1997) SNES version of "Arcade's Greatest Hits - The Atari Collection 1", which actually included all six games of the PSX/Saturn game mentioned in the article, instead of dropping one like the the SNES and Genesis versions of the first Midway collection! All it's missing is the video interviews with the creators... and highscore saving, there' still no battery backup.
Anyway, getting back to the first collection for Playstation, none of these games are traditional shmups, of course, but Defender, Defender II, and Sinistar rate a mention, at least...
... Why couldn't they have used more standardized naming for these things, it's horribly confusing...
Atari Anniversary Edition Redux has nothing to do with Midway, it was published by "Atari" (Infogrames). The developer was the same, though, of course, given that Digital Eclipse made all of the collections in this list here, so listing them together does make sense. But the publishers were different, due to Infogrames' wrapping up of all classic Atari game rights (ie all home console games and all pre-1984 arcade titles) by the early years of this decade. It is still a bit messy though, with Infogrames/Atari having the 1975-1984 part of the Atari Games arcade library, and Midway having the 1984-2003 part... but that's a lot less confusing than it used to be.
Second, and much more importantly, your Sol Divide section is missing any comments on the game-breaking changes XS Games made to the title for its US release. This US release, in 2003, came over 4 1/2 years after the original mid 1998 Japanese releases, which explains why the Saturn version didn't come over here... a July 1998 Japan released Saturn game? No way was that coming here. Even the Playstation version only did in the system's last days here, after Sony eased up on their 2d game restrictions on the system... but unfortunately, XS Games did an absolutely terrible job. Indeed, Sol Divide was probably broken just as badly as Gunbird/Mobile Light Force, overall... First, like with the US release of Gunbird (Mobile Light Force) or that European version of Sonic Wings Special, while the original Japanese version had saving, the Western release had the saving removed.
Second, XS Games also forgot to translate the endings, so they are all presented in full, untranslated Japanese. The intro, Original Mode item names and descriptions, etc, are translated, but not the Arcade Mode endings. The endings are text-only, so there isn't any voice acting to give you a hint of what's goiing on or anything, just pictures and Japanese text, at the end of a game which they did translate the intro to. That's just cruel...
The lack of saving is the worse problem, though. While this would be annoying in Sonic Wings Special, as you describe, for the loss of hidden characters, and also annoying in Mobile Light Force, where the other modifications were even worse than the removal of high-score save, in Sol Divide it is absolutely CRIPPLING, because it utterly destroys the entire point and purpose of the existence of Original Mode. Arcade Mode only loses the high-score table, so it's not as bad there, but Original Mode is pretty much completely broken. I got the US version and while I did like the game, I couldn't understand why Original Mode existed. What's the point in going out there, making progress, etc, when you just lose everything as soon as you turn off the game? It didn't make sense...
Only once I learned that the original Japanese versions (both PSX and Saturn) had saving and allowed you to save your character data (items, progress reached through the game, etc) did Original Mode make sense... in fact, in the Japanese versions you even have SAVE POINTS at points along your journey (at the places where you choose between two different paths), so you can continue from those points with all your equipped stuff when you die instead of having to lose all your equipped items and start the whole game over again from the beginning every time you die, as is true in the US version! And, of course, it actually lets you come back later, instead of having to play through the entire Original Mode in one sitting and losing everything when you turn off the game. It was when I realized all this that I got about as angry at XS Games about Sol Divide as everyone is about how badly they mauled Gunbird. The Japanese-language endings are bad enough, but the saving problem... wow. Truly awful.
Last... well, I think I covered the "Mobile Light Force was actually published by XS Games in the US and Europe" thing already. Don't blame those who are not guilty...
It's XS that published this, Sol Divide, and Mobile Light Force 2, all in March 2003. Sol Divide was actually the first of the three released, the other two on the same day two weeks later (On that note, given the removal of saving from the two PS1 games, we're pretty lucky that it wasn't removed from "Mobile Light Force 2"!). Obviously, people didn't notice the changes in Sol Divide, and XS Games only got the message "don't mess with these games!" after the two MLF games were released. They did learn, though, and as you say, when they released Castle Shikigami 2 the next year (2004), it was a fine port. Hilariously bad English, but a fine port. But anyway, on "Mobile Light Force".Honestly, while the other changes made to Gunbird are horrible and really annoying, I could take the renamed characters, removed tate mode, and the complete removal of the (quite funny) story, if the core gameplay was intact. It's the gameplay that really matters, after all, much more than any of those factors... and while removing tate mode impacts the gameplay, I don't have a rotated monitor so I wouldn't be using it anyway, so I don't mind that so much. Sadly, though, the gameplay modifications and the removal of high-score saving kill the last shreds of quality the game has... oh, I played through it and had a bit of fun, but without a plot or highscore save in a game that's supposed to have both it seriously suffers. You do say it's not recommended... but you don't mention what I would call the most important reason why, the removal of the save feature.
Overall though, great article, for sure. Must have taken a long time to put together.
Last edited by A Black Falcon on Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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professor ganson
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BulletMagnet
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A Black Falcon
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Erm... forgot an important detail, on the issue of Sol Divide's story. While the endings were left in untranslated Japanese, as I said, I forgot something important... the REST of the story text was all removed. Oh, the wordless FMV intro that plays before you press start is still there, but that doesn't really tell you much of the story, the scene after you select your character does. In the US version, that scene and all other removable story scenes are gone. You go from character select instantly to the beginning of the first level. The little conversations with bosses? Gone. The bosses simply appear and start shooting, there are no prefight conversations or characters. The only text remaining in Arcade Mode is the level-select option screens -- there, they translated not just the names of the two levels you can choose between, but the short descriptions of what taking each path means, even though without the intro, a translation of any of the endings, or any other cutscenes that information is meaningless.
In Original Mode the text that the guy says to your character before you go off is translated, as is, as I said, all the item names and descriptions.
Anyway, it was the errors and omissions in the finished article that finally got me to register here...
... Oh, and I did all that listing of that Midway collection stuff because I'd been going through all that stuff not long ago, after I noticed all the different names for collections with many of the same games and wondered what the differences are... I like making lists of games and stuff. It was a nice excuse to put all that stuff together for a post.
Anyway, I think it's kind of funny that you got down trivia like the renaming of the characters in Mobile Light Force, but missed stuff easily found on GameFAQs like the name of the company publishing the games and the years they were published in (saying that MLF2 came out years after MLF1 when they were released on the same day)... oh well, stuff happens. Missing bigger things like the removal of saving in both US MLF and Sol Divide is understandable, though, if you hadn't actually played the US versions, though... sensibly avoided them because of their bad reputations, perhaps?
I do think, though, as I said, that Sol Divide doesn't get nearly enough attention for how broken it is. It's probably because it's not nearly as popular as Gunbird, many fewer people care... but really, with no story in the Arcade Mode and a completely pointlessly broken Original Mode (thanks to there being no saving and no way to avoid being sent back all the way to the beginning and lose all your inventory items of the game every time you die)? It's horrible... but the port really was just as bad. Both have no saving, but it matters a lot more in Sol Divide because that game has a second mode which relies entirely on saving to be relevant, while in Gunbird all you lose with the feature is high-score saving. Gunbird loses access to the intro, all story text, art galleries (forgot to mention that... the pictures are all still on the disc, it's just impossible to see them ingame. Also, they aren't just jpegs on the disc, they require Playstation file format reading software to find and view.), and some characters are renamed; Sol Divide still has its initial FMV intro intact, but has all other story text in the Arcade Mode removed or left untranslated (and never had any art galleries to remove). US Sol Divide is just as bad as Mobile Light Force.
Oh, and why remove saving from the two PSX games but leave it in the PS2 game (MLF2) that they released at the same time? Very odd. At least that leaves MLF2 still playable, though... not as good with no story, but still playable.
Really, the whole thing makes me appreciate Agetec's job with Strikers 1945 II more, for sure. Sure, it also took years to come to the US (Japan in late 1998, US in early 2001), but all that was removed was tate mode, nothing else. Unlike the other two Psikyo PS1 shmups that got US releases, it actually has saving. The only possible complaint is the removal of Tate Mode, which is pretty minor compared to what happened to those other two games.
In Original Mode the text that the guy says to your character before you go off is translated, as is, as I said, all the item names and descriptions.
Reading this forum once in a while, but never quite getting around to registering... not sure if I read this thread earlier, but unless you actually asked for information about the US versions of these games, I doubt I could have helped you much before the article went up.BulletMagnet wrote:Thanks for the insights, ABF (one question - where the heck were you when I was creating this thing?) - I'll see if I can persuade RB to let a few of those factoids in along with the other edits. And again, glad to see you're all enjoying the article so far.
Anyway, it was the errors and omissions in the finished article that finally got me to register here...... Oh, and I did all that listing of that Midway collection stuff because I'd been going through all that stuff not long ago, after I noticed all the different names for collections with many of the same games and wondered what the differences are... I like making lists of games and stuff. It was a nice excuse to put all that stuff together for a post.
Anyway, I think it's kind of funny that you got down trivia like the renaming of the characters in Mobile Light Force, but missed stuff easily found on GameFAQs like the name of the company publishing the games and the years they were published in (saying that MLF2 came out years after MLF1 when they were released on the same day)... oh well, stuff happens. Missing bigger things like the removal of saving in both US MLF and Sol Divide is understandable, though, if you hadn't actually played the US versions, though... sensibly avoided them because of their bad reputations, perhaps?
I do think, though, as I said, that Sol Divide doesn't get nearly enough attention for how broken it is. It's probably because it's not nearly as popular as Gunbird, many fewer people care... but really, with no story in the Arcade Mode and a completely pointlessly broken Original Mode (thanks to there being no saving and no way to avoid being sent back all the way to the beginning and lose all your inventory items of the game every time you die)? It's horrible... but the port really was just as bad. Both have no saving, but it matters a lot more in Sol Divide because that game has a second mode which relies entirely on saving to be relevant, while in Gunbird all you lose with the feature is high-score saving. Gunbird loses access to the intro, all story text, art galleries (forgot to mention that... the pictures are all still on the disc, it's just impossible to see them ingame. Also, they aren't just jpegs on the disc, they require Playstation file format reading software to find and view.), and some characters are renamed; Sol Divide still has its initial FMV intro intact, but has all other story text in the Arcade Mode removed or left untranslated (and never had any art galleries to remove). US Sol Divide is just as bad as Mobile Light Force.
Oh, and why remove saving from the two PSX games but leave it in the PS2 game (MLF2) that they released at the same time? Very odd. At least that leaves MLF2 still playable, though... not as good with no story, but still playable.
Really, the whole thing makes me appreciate Agetec's job with Strikers 1945 II more, for sure. Sure, it also took years to come to the US (Japan in late 1998, US in early 2001), but all that was removed was tate mode, nothing else. Unlike the other two Psikyo PS1 shmups that got US releases, it actually has saving. The only possible complaint is the removal of Tate Mode, which is pretty minor compared to what happened to those other two games.
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BulletMagnet
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A Black Falcon
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Oh, I almost forgot... one of the toughest things is always deciding to draw the line. Shmups are definable. The tricky part is in the borderliners category, and that "Other non-2d shooters to look in to" paragraph in particular.
Star Fighter is an almost-shmup? But it's a free-roaming mission-based flying shooter, along the lines of the later Rogue Squadron. If you count that, there's a bunch of other games like that on the PSX you'd have to mention... and looking at the rest of the list (or at least the ones I know of), you're only mentioning games on auto-scrolling paths, like N2O and Tempest X3 and Nanotek Warrior and things like that, not ones where you fly around a larger area looking for your targets.
It is true that your engines are always going so you are always flying and such, but the different kind of gameplay...
Starblade is also questionable, unless you're getting into listing lightgun-style shooters, given that that's what it is. You move the cursor around the screen and shoot the enemy ships as they pop up. You don't even have the minimal amount of right-left flying control of the Rebel Assault games (and Rebel Assault II isn't on your list there). Are any other games on the list target-shooting style like that?
... On an unrelated noted, I have N2O and Tempest X3, and while Tempest X3 is great (not as good as the Jaguar original Tempest 2000, but great), Nitrous Oxide: N2O... I don't know why, but I just didn't like it at all. Oh well.
My point is, if you're trying to be "comprehensive" you'd need a LOT more games, and listing all those probably isn't worth it. If you're trying to just hit highlights, that's fine, but it might need to be made a bit clearer that that's the purpose. I mean, to just mention a couple, there's stuff like Total Eclipse Turbo, Shockwave Assault, Titan Wars (Solar Assault), Rebel Assault II... and even if you did try to list "every shooting game" I don't know if there'd be a point, given that the list is supposedly for just shmups. Making a "complete list of shooting games" wouldn't be worth it because every time you go into another field of games you add a whole new category of titles to potentially add to the list... it would get very long. I always have trouble trying to decide where or which borderline titles to include on a list... it's never easy to decide.
A good example of that for me is this attempt at a complete list of futuristic racing games I did recently. Deciding which games to include and which to not include was pretty hard... there are quite a few borderline futuristic shooter/racing games, and which are "racing" enough to count?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348433
Star Fighter is an almost-shmup? But it's a free-roaming mission-based flying shooter, along the lines of the later Rogue Squadron. If you count that, there's a bunch of other games like that on the PSX you'd have to mention... and looking at the rest of the list (or at least the ones I know of), you're only mentioning games on auto-scrolling paths, like N2O and Tempest X3 and Nanotek Warrior and things like that, not ones where you fly around a larger area looking for your targets.
It is true that your engines are always going so you are always flying and such, but the different kind of gameplay...
Starblade is also questionable, unless you're getting into listing lightgun-style shooters, given that that's what it is. You move the cursor around the screen and shoot the enemy ships as they pop up. You don't even have the minimal amount of right-left flying control of the Rebel Assault games (and Rebel Assault II isn't on your list there). Are any other games on the list target-shooting style like that?
... On an unrelated noted, I have N2O and Tempest X3, and while Tempest X3 is great (not as good as the Jaguar original Tempest 2000, but great), Nitrous Oxide: N2O... I don't know why, but I just didn't like it at all. Oh well.
My point is, if you're trying to be "comprehensive" you'd need a LOT more games, and listing all those probably isn't worth it. If you're trying to just hit highlights, that's fine, but it might need to be made a bit clearer that that's the purpose. I mean, to just mention a couple, there's stuff like Total Eclipse Turbo, Shockwave Assault, Titan Wars (Solar Assault), Rebel Assault II... and even if you did try to list "every shooting game" I don't know if there'd be a point, given that the list is supposedly for just shmups. Making a "complete list of shooting games" wouldn't be worth it because every time you go into another field of games you add a whole new category of titles to potentially add to the list... it would get very long.
I always have trouble trying to decide where or which borderline titles to include on a list... it's never easy to decide. A good example of that for me is this attempt at a complete list of futuristic racing games I did recently. Deciding which games to include and which to not include was pretty hard... there are quite a few borderline futuristic shooter/racing games, and which are "racing" enough to count?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348433
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BulletMagnet
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Okay, just sent the revisions to RB, hopefully they'll be up before too long.
Thanks again for the detailed info, ABF - I've included most of it, but the only thing I'll respond on is the "others" list at the end. I actually never even intended to include that, it was just a list I kept of games I'd checked out but didn't fit the criteria of the article - it was never intended to be comprehensive or anything like that, but RB insisted on keeping it, as an "extra" alongside the (also incomplete, I'm sure) minigames list. I did, however, add the titles you mentioned in your post above in the revised draft I sent out.
Thanks again, you and all who helped me out!
Thanks again for the detailed info, ABF - I've included most of it, but the only thing I'll respond on is the "others" list at the end. I actually never even intended to include that, it was just a list I kept of games I'd checked out but didn't fit the criteria of the article - it was never intended to be comprehensive or anything like that, but RB insisted on keeping it, as an "extra" alongside the (also incomplete, I'm sure) minigames list. I did, however, add the titles you mentioned in your post above in the revised draft I sent out.
Thanks again, you and all who helped me out!
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A Black Falcon
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Thinking of MLF and Sol Divide, it made me wonder which shmups of that generation don't have saving even in their Japanese versions... I've only checked the Saturn's list so far, but I'll probably go through the PSX too. Here's what I have for Saturn shmups with no saving (as far as I know there are no Saturn games that have saving in some regions but not others, unlike the PSX):
No Saving
--
Choaniki: Kyuukyoku Muteki Ginga Saikyou Otoko
Darius Gaiden (JEU)
Gekirindan
Gun Frontier (has black symbol)
In the Hunt (JEU) (Kaitei Taisensou: In the Hunt)
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Ultra Pack
Prikura Daisakusen (has black symbol)
Thunder Force Gold Pack 1
Interesting, that negates any remaining shreds of point to getting the Saturn version of In the Hunt. I mean, on PSX it saves your settings and high scores, has the Playstation mode alternate and much improved CD audio mode (it's Arcade audio only on Saturn!), and has less slowdown and a code to reduce the slowdown below that... sure, the Saturn version accurately copies the slowdown of the original arcade game, but... it doesn't even save your highscores, while it does on PSX? Too bad.
Darius Gaiden, however, doesn't have saving on either platform. Only the later collected versions have highscore saving -- Taito Memories vol.2 (I think that's the one with it... not certain though), Taito Legends 2.
No Saving
--
Choaniki: Kyuukyoku Muteki Ginga Saikyou Otoko
Darius Gaiden (JEU)
Gekirindan
Gun Frontier (has black symbol)
In the Hunt (JEU) (Kaitei Taisensou: In the Hunt)
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Ultra Pack
Prikura Daisakusen (has black symbol)
Thunder Force Gold Pack 1
Interesting, that negates any remaining shreds of point to getting the Saturn version of In the Hunt. I mean, on PSX it saves your settings and high scores, has the Playstation mode alternate and much improved CD audio mode (it's Arcade audio only on Saturn!), and has less slowdown and a code to reduce the slowdown below that... sure, the Saturn version accurately copies the slowdown of the original arcade game, but... it doesn't even save your highscores, while it does on PSX? Too bad.
Darius Gaiden, however, doesn't have saving on either platform. Only the later collected versions have highscore saving -- Taito Memories vol.2 (I think that's the one with it... not certain though), Taito Legends 2.
Ah, that makes sense then.Okay, just sent the revisions to RB, hopefully they'll be up before too long.
Thanks again for the detailed info, ABF - I've included most of it, but the only thing I'll respond on is the "others" list at the end. I actually never even intended to include that, it was just a list I kept of games I'd checked out but didn't fit the criteria of the article - it was never intended to be comprehensive or anything like that, but RB insisted on keeping it, as an "extra" alongside the (also incomplete, I'm sure) minigames list. I did, however, add the titles you mentioned in your post above in the revised draft I sent out.
Thanks again, you and all who helped me out!
Updates have been posted -- thanks all!BulletMagnet wrote:Okay, just sent the revisions to RB, hopefully they'll be up before too long.
Thanks again for the detailed info, ABF - I've included most of it, but the only thing I'll respond on is the "others" list at the end. I actually never even intended to include that, it was just a list I kept of games I'd checked out but didn't fit the criteria of the article - it was never intended to be comprehensive or anything like that, but RB insisted on keeping it, as an "extra" alongside the (also incomplete, I'm sure) minigames list. I did, however, add the titles you mentioned in your post above in the revised draft I sent out.
Thanks again, you and all who helped me out!
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A Black Falcon
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Looks great, the improved MLF and Sol Divide sections are much more accurate now.
Only a couple very, very small things... you could change these or not, they aren't major points. I just wanted to mention them anyway.
On the Atari/Midway collection article, good job. Specifically the "Williams Collection", and "Atari Collection 1" have creator video interviews, while the "Midway Collection 2" and "Atari Collection 2" have other stuff, including trivia games and picture galleries, but not videos. The videos made for the Williams Collection 1 are also in Midway Arcade Treasures 1, but as all classic Atari collections after about 2001-2003 or so are from Atari/Infogrames, the only way I know of to see those Atari Collection 1 videos is actually go get the Atari Collection 1, which is a reason to get it I think, if they really aren't anywhere else.
I could be wrong about that though, because I don't have any post-Midway Atari collections, so I can't be certain. But I did get the Atari Collection 1 last year at least in part because I was interested in those videos.
I know what you mean here, but would someone who hasn't read this thread. They did translate one text-box of the Arcade Mode story and everything in the Original Mode I've seen (not having finished it due to the challenge and lack of saving, I can't say anything about Original Mode's ending), but other than that all story scenes were removed or left untranslated.
... Oh, and look what was in that Saturn list you made...
Only a couple very, very small things... you could change these or not, they aren't major points. I just wanted to mention them anyway.
Five.(all four games were released a year later in PAL format)
Technically the PSX version's name is "Starblade Alpha", using the Greek letter Alpha. It's usually either spelled with the Greek letter or the word Alpha, not just an a. It doesn't matter much though, "Starblade" will find all versions of the game for sure.Starblade a
On the Atari/Midway collection article, good job. Specifically the "Williams Collection", and "Atari Collection 1" have creator video interviews, while the "Midway Collection 2" and "Atari Collection 2" have other stuff, including trivia games and picture galleries, but not videos. The videos made for the Williams Collection 1 are also in Midway Arcade Treasures 1, but as all classic Atari collections after about 2001-2003 or so are from Atari/Infogrames, the only way I know of to see those Atari Collection 1 videos is actually go get the Atari Collection 1, which is a reason to get it I think, if they really aren't anywhere else.
I could be wrong about that though, because I don't have any post-Midway Atari collections, so I can't be certain. But I did get the Atari Collection 1 last year at least in part because I was interested in those videos.
(Sol Divide)aside from missing some translated story segments
I know what you mean here, but would someone who hasn't read this thread. They did translate one text-box of the Arcade Mode story and everything in the Original Mode I've seen (not having finished it due to the challenge and lack of saving, I can't say anything about Original Mode's ending), but other than that all story scenes were removed or left untranslated.
... Oh, and look what was in that Saturn list you made...
Heh.(which made it stateside, though without the ability to save any data)
Last edited by A Black Falcon on Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BulletMagnet
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Yup, RB wasted no time sprucing the bugger up - hopefully that covers (almost) everything.
Thanks again for the help!
Can't believe I missed that, especially seeing as I changed "four" to "five" elsewhere in that same selection after adding the fifth game. Gah, I'll let the boss determine whether to bother fixing it or simply directing readers to point and laugh at the author.A Black Falcon wrote:Five.(all four games were released a year later in PAL format)
(which made it stateside, though without the ability to save any data)... Oh, and look what was in that Saturn list you made...
Go figure.
Heh.
Thanks again for the help!
i'm not sure if this technically counts, but if it does, then you forgot the awesome Galaxy Monkey, the most addictive minigame from Ape Escape (which has another minigame featuring monkey boxing, to prove just how good this must be to overshadow it). it plays like a cross between llamatron et al's gameplay and geometry wars' controls, and puts you in control of one of the ubiquitous UFO-bound monkeys from the game itself, moving with left stick and firing with right, taking down waves of enemies. as far as i know it's the first shmup ever to use this dual analog setup (as ape escape was the first game to mandate the use of an analog controller), so perhaps a bit of history in the making too.
there's a video of it here - skip to 6:45ish, and ignore how much the guy sucks at it, it gets much more intense later on - i seem to recall i was able to get to wave ~150, but that kind of knowledge is long lost to the mists of time. if i can track down my copy of ape escape and find a save game for it, and you decide it's shmuppy enough for inclusion, i can probably do a proper writeup for you, although to be honest there's not that much needs writing up.
oh, and thanks for the dreamcast vga adapter racketboy <3
there's a video of it here - skip to 6:45ish, and ignore how much the guy sucks at it, it gets much more intense later on - i seem to recall i was able to get to wave ~150, but that kind of knowledge is long lost to the mists of time. if i can track down my copy of ape escape and find a save game for it, and you decide it's shmuppy enough for inclusion, i can probably do a proper writeup for you, although to be honest there's not that much needs writing up.
oh, and thanks for the dreamcast vga adapter racketboy <3
Last edited by brannon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nice article, but I have one thing you missed.
This sort of falls under minigame, but the original Tekken let you play the Galaga Challenging Stage during its initial loading time. It had one ship by default, but there was a cheat you could enter for a double ship, and if you got a perfect with a single ship you unlocked a character.
Not a large oversight by any means, but since you're obviously going for the comprehensive list it might be worth a mention.
This sort of falls under minigame, but the original Tekken let you play the Galaga Challenging Stage during its initial loading time. It had one ship by default, but there was a cheat you could enter for a double ship, and if you got a perfect with a single ship you unlocked a character.
Not a large oversight by any means, but since you're obviously going for the comprehensive list it might be worth a mention.
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BulletMagnet
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Thanks for the mentions, guys - actually, as soon as I read the first post, I immediately remembered playing Galaxy Monkey way back in the day, too bad I'd forgotten it. In any case, the "minigames" section was mainly just a "bonus" of sorts, and not really intended to be comprehensive - if RB agrees, though, I'd definitely be up for adding these two.
Okay, I sucked big time - I forgot an hidden mini game! I'm pretty sure that the original (Atari 800 version) Dropzone can be added to the Playstation shmups library. It should be found in Jimmy White's 2: Cueball
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/home/578871.html
For the occasion, I snatched a copy online, so whenever I get I'll tell you more.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/home/578871.html
For the occasion, I snatched a copy online, so whenever I get I'll tell you more.
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BulletMagnet
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That's cool. Say BM, I thought we included tube among shmups years ago. 
certainly two lines about Tempest X3 (and its unlockable, but brocken, Tempest 2000) would have been nice in the article.
(it's the only one in the "miscellaneous" at the bottom that I regret not being given a coverage. Of course, that would bring along N2O and IS too).
certainly two lines about Tempest X3 (and its unlockable, but brocken, Tempest 2000) would have been nice in the article.(it's the only one in the "miscellaneous" at the bottom that I regret not being given a coverage. Of course, that would bring along N2O and IS too).
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BulletMagnet
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Yeah, it is a bit of a contradiction, especially seeing as I included Tempest 2000 in the Saturn article - more than anything else it was a matter of space, since this list was even longer than the Saturn's (and RB had to mess with the site's DB again just to make it fit) I tried to keep the criteria for "shmup" at least relatively strict. A list at least noting the borderliners and whatnot at the end was about the best compromise that either of us (but mostly RB ) could come up with.
) could come up with.Yeah, just lemme know.BulletMagnet wrote:Heh, thanks for the tip - again, though, at this point it's RB's decision whether or not he even wants to bother with this monster any further.
I like it better when corrections/additions are made in bulk so I don't have to do them every day, but whenever you're ready for the next batch
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professor ganson
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BulletMagnet
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Weird, I coulda sworn that there was a link to it someplace on here - sorry about that, click here, and hope you enjoy.
While I'm at it, I figure I ought to mention that indstr has brought a possible omission or two to my attention, and is helping me in fixing this, so there may be a small update in the works (sorry RB!).
While I'm at it, I figure I ought to mention that indstr has brought a possible omission or two to my attention, and is helping me in fixing this, so there may be a small update in the works (sorry RB!).
