shmupnut and 9/11

[jpj]

smartest scientist that ever lived believed in god. second smartest did too

i hope dale, jockel, or spondangly come back because there is potential for a decent discussion here, evn amidst internet 'humour' circa 2002

[captpain]

smartest scientist that ever lived believed in god. second smartest did too

There you have it, proof of God's existence

By the way, if you're talking about Einstein -- he wasn't religious... he's been sort of hijacked by religious people taking his quotes out of context. He repeatedly explained that he wasn't religious, at least in any sense that is comparable to Christianity or the like.

[Nuke]

smartest scientist that ever lived believed in god.

1. Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

second smartest did too

2. Stephen Hawking

What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary.

* Der Spiegel (17 October 1988)

[jpj]

i'm not religious

and i didn't say einstein was religious, only that he had a belief in a creator.

and second smartest scientist for me would be isaac newton not that hawking hasn't done a phenomenal amount

my point is that some of those "people with mental problems" have actually done a great deal for the human race, as well as science. i could write a list of every great person through history that had religious values, but i'd be here all fucking day

let's not demonise 100% of a group of people because 1% are objectionable

[captpain]

i'm not religious

and i didn't say einstein was religious, only that he had a belief in a creator.

and second smartest scientist for me would be isaac newton not that hawking hasn't done a phenomenal amount

my point is that some of those "people with mental problems" have actually done a great deal for the human race, as well as science. i could write a list of every great person through history that had religious values, but i'd be here all fucking day

let's not demonise 100% of a group of people because 1% are objectionable

Yeah, I'm atheist but I wouldn't call religion a communicable disease, or anything overly hyperbolic like that. People are "allowed" to be irrational with regards to religion, so otherwise rational people are easily able to compartmentalize their minds and believe in one. I don't like it, but it's true...

[Ceph]

That's why I sometimes call religiousness voluntary schizophrenia.

Of course, if you hear "God" talking to you, then this is real schizophrenia.

[Nuke]

i'm not religious

Didn't say you were.

and i didn't say einstein was religious, only that he had a belief in a creator.

You didn't say that Einstein was a theist... only that he was a theist?

and second smartest scientist for me would be isaac newton not that hawking hasn't done a phenomenal amount

Newton was talented but mad as a hatter
But hey, I admire Alan Moore. And he has conversations with a sock-puppet.

my point is that some of those "people with mental problems" have actually done a great deal for the human race, as well as science. i could write a list of every great person through history that had religious values, but i'd be here all fucking day

Fair enough, but lets turn that on it's head; Let's imagine what those great minds would have accomplished further without all this occult bullshit to muddle their minds and steal away precious time they could have used for more constructive things. Shit, we'd probably have put a man on the moon by no later than 200 A.D.

let's not demonise 100% of a group of people because 1% are objectionable

Agreed. Let's just put 30,000+ worth of embarrassing history behind us and move on with our lives.

[The n00b]

I pose a simple question to our fundamentalist atheist friends. If religion is the product of ignorance and has caused so many problems including intolerance in general.... Does atheism cause fundamentalist atheists to be a bunch of dicks?

When exactly do we acknowledge that is the nature of mankind of act like a bunch of holes? I don't see a belief in atheism changing any of this.

[Ceph]

People who claim Einstein believed in God merely show their own ignorance.

And someone who believes Einstein was the smartest man who ever lived demonstrates a fundamental lack of scientific and general knowledge. Of course he furthered our understanding of the nature of the universe, but so did many other less known scientists, some of whom made eqally important or possibly even more groundbreaking discoveries. For instance Max Planck, whose discovery of the Planck constant and quantum mechanics in 1900 only made Einsteins later discovery of special relativity possible. No man is an island. Einstein was a popstar of science, much like Hawking is now.

Also, let's not forget about about the great philosophers.

[Nuke]

I didn't use Einstein and Hawkins as absolutes; I just provided them as popular examples.
But you are right. Arguing who was/is the most intelligent man ever to have graced us is ultimately pointless since we don't even have an accurate definition of what Intelligence is yet.

And noob, stop being a fundamentalist tool even though you disagree.
At least share your opinions or argue -going the *hurr, duurr u guis r asshls* route does you nothing but disservice.

[jpj]

i'm not religious

Didn't say you were.

i'm thinking of taking it up actually. some of the bullshit i read here makes me embarassed to be an atheist. i understand why nerds generally gravitate towards atheism, but the existance or non-existance of god isn't an argument that you "win". i don't get why some atheists find it hard to talk about religion without being an asshole, and without trying to ram their opinions down everyone's throats. atheists are quick becoming the new jehova's witnesses

the only important thing to judge people by is their words and actions

[The n00b]

I didn't use Einstein and Hawkins as absolutes; I just provided them as popular examples.
But you are right. Arguing who was/is the most intelligent man ever to have graced us is ultimately pointless since we don't even have an accurate definition of what Intelligence is yet.

And noob, stop being a fundamentalist tool even though you disagree.
At least share your opinions or argue -going the *hurr, duurr u guis r asshls* route does you nothing but disservice.

Isn't evading a question part of being a tool, duke? So what exactly makes a atheist fundamentalist any better than a religious fundamentalist? I've posed this question every time you guys troll it up and all I get is..

"ATHEISM FUCK YEAH!"

[captpain]

I didn't use Einstein and Hawkins as absolutes; I just provided them as popular examples.
But you are right. Arguing who was/is the most intelligent man ever to have graced us is ultimately pointless since we don't even have an accurate definition of what Intelligence is yet.

And noob, stop being a fundamentalist tool even though you disagree.
At least share your opinions or argue -going the *hurr, duurr u guis r asshls* route does you nothing but disservice.

Isn't evading a question part of being a tool, duke? So what exactly makes a atheist fundamentalist any better than a religious fundamentalist? I've posed this question every time you guys troll it up and all I get is..

"ATHEISM FUCK YEAH!"

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about. The situation that exists apparently exists only in your head.

If you personally find atheists to be dicks, it's probably because they're the only people on Earth who are willing to sincerely and objectively analyze the most fundamental parts of religion without the baggage of meaningless tradition, shoddy philosophy, and almost shocking lack of rational thought (and you're not used to it).

If somebody came up to you and said "I believe that wizards exist and that they can cast lightning bolts at will", would you take that seriously? No... that's why atheists don't take to well to equally unfounded religious beliefs and practices.

[Nuke]

i'm not religious

Didn't say you were.

i'm thinking of taking it up actually. some of the bullshit i read here makes me embarassed to be an atheist. i understand why nerds generally gravitate towards atheism, but the existance or non-existance of god isn't an argument that you "win". i don't get why some atheists find it hard to talk about religion without being an asshole, and without trying to ram their opinions down everyone's throats. atheists are quick becoming the new jehova's witnesses

the only important thing to judge people by is their words and actions

i'm not religious

Didn't say you were.

i'm thinking of taking it up actually. some of the bullshit i read here makes me embarassed to be an atheist. i understand why nerds generally gravitate towards atheism, but the existance or non-existance of god isn't an argument that you "win". i don't get why some atheists find it hard to talk about religion without being an asshole, and without trying to ram their opinions down everyone's throats. atheists are quick becoming the new jehova's witnesses

the only important thing to judge people by is their words and actions

I apologize if I've painted myself the asshole in your book, but these are only my opinions on the matter and ultimately, they're only that: My opinions and I tend to be a bit passionate about them.
By no means do I seek to "win" at anything with this: I debate for the sake of the argument and the exchange of ideas and viewpoints -purely for the sake of entertainment and my interest in the subject matter.

And noob, asking someone a faulty question like "are you proud to be an asshole" and expecting a serious answer is the oldest troll trick in the book.
I would satisfy you with an answer to your second "rephrased" question but I've decided against it due to your hostile demeanor.
Name calling is something I put behind me in the 4th grade and I'm not about to sink to your level.
If anyone else wants to ask me any questions, feel free. But at least show me the most basic of courtesy before you do.

[jpj]

i wasn't talking about you, you seem alright in my book

[captpain]

The issue here is that there is no such thing as an opinion with regards to the existence or non-existence of god. There is nothing that can be construed as physical evidence which necessitates the existence of a god, and thus there simply is no reason to go around professing that a god exists.

[jpj]

There is nothing that can be construed as physical evidence which necessitates the existence of a god, and thus there simply is no reason to go around professing that a god exists.

well, in islam everyone born in the last 1,000 years or so are referred to as Mohammed's People. that is to say people who will never have a prophet or see a miracle in their lifetime. there are hundreds of prophets in qu'ran, and basically god has just given up at this point. so the belief has to be based on faith alone. if there were evidence god exists in the here and now, you would be removing faith from religion...

[szycag]

Atheism is stupid. If you deny the existence of God then you have to have just as much personal conviction as religious people do. Agnosticism is the way to go. If you can't prove it with the scientific method, it's just conjecture anyways. So why not be logical about it?

[captpain]

There is nothing that can be construed as physical evidence which necessitates the existence of a god, and thus there simply is no reason to go around professing that a god exists.

well, in islam everyone born in the last 1,000 years or so are referred to as Mohammed's People. that is to say people who will never have a prophet or see a miracle in their lifetime. there are hundreds of prophets in qu'ran, and basically god has just given up at this point. so the belief has to be based on faith alone. if there were evidence god exists in the here and now, you would be removing faith from religion...

...? Obviously my point is that there is no validity whatsoever in faith. No large group of people has faith in the ancient Greek gods, which have an equal amount of "historical" evidence for their existence as anything else. Reliance on ancient texts for religious belief is entirely arbitrary and nonscientific, and as such, unsuited for the foundation of factual belief. Faith is not a worthwhile thing.

[captpain]

Atheism is stupid. If you deny the existence of God then you have to have just as much personal conviction as religious people do. Agnosticism is the way to go. If you can't prove it with the scientific method, it's just conjecture anyways. So why not be logical about it?

Modern agnosticism seems to be spawned from a poor comprehension of what atheism actually is in the 21st century. It's not a baseless denial of the existence of god, but rather a recognition that there is no reason to profess the existence of a god, as everything any human has encountered so far can be (even if it isn't yet) explained within a scientific framework. Agnosticism is useless.

[MX7]

some of the bullshit i read here makes me embarrassed to be an atheist

This.

I just wrote up a lengthy argument, but accidentally deleted it. All I will say is, despite spending my last few years of life being surrounded by religious friends, I am still an atheist. No one has 'converted' me, and the only people who have tried to do so are atheists. Both me and my (Catholic) girlfriend agree that it's atheists who are the most pig headed, closed minded and staunchly conservative people we know. If that's not a contagious disease that needs to be stopped now, I don't know what is.

[captpain]

This.

I just wrote up a lengthy argument, but accidentally deleted it. All I will say is, despite spending my last few years of life being surrounded by religious friends, I am still an atheist. No one has 'converted' me, and the only people who have tried to do so are atheists. Both me and my (Catholic) girlfriend agree that it's atheists who are the most pig headed, closed minded and staunchly conservative people we know. If that's not a contagious disease that needs to be stopped now, I don't know what is.

I'm really sorry that you've reached this conclusion. I guess you don't read very much about this sort of thing, or you're surrounded by a lot of pseudo-atheist loudmouths (the type of people who are simply thrilled that they don't believe what most people do, and thus won't shut their mouths about their poorly reasoned ideas).

[szycag]

Agnosticism is useless.

The definition you gave is the belief that I hold, and I don't see how it's useless. Confirming or denying the existence of god is what's useless. I thought I made that clear with the logic comment.

[jpj]

you're still new to the forum...

[FIL]

There are atheists and then there are internet atheists.

[JoshF]

ISo what exactly makes a atheist fundamentalist any better than a religious fundamentalist?

Superior fundamentals I guess.

Agnosticism is useless.

Pretty much. There is a miniscule possibilidad of anything happening, but that 0.1% possibilidad doesn't deserve equal weight as the 99.9% possibilidad it's not a possibilidad like agnostics think we would believe.

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about.

[captpain]

Agnosticism is useless.

The definition you gave is the belief that I hold, and I don't see how it's useless. Confirming or denying the existence of god is what's useless. I thought I made that clear with the logic comment.

Then you're an atheist -- congratulations. The only reason I would actively deny the existence of a god is for argument, and because operating under the assumption that there is no god and denying the existence of god are functionally the same. God is only a factor if you believe in its existence. I hope that makes sense.

[The n00b]

This.

I just wrote up a lengthy argument, but accidentally deleted it. All I will say is, despite spending my last few years of life being surrounded by religious friends, I am still an atheist. No one has 'converted' me, and the only people who have tried to do so are atheists. Both me and my (Catholic) girlfriend agree that it's atheists who are the most pig headed, closed minded and staunchly conservative people we know. If that's not a contagious disease that needs to be stopped now, I don't know what is.

I'm really sorry that you've reached this conclusion. I guess you don't read very much about this sort of thing, or you're surrounded by a lot of pseudo-atheist loudmouths (the type of people who are simply thrilled that they don't believe what most people do, and thus won't shut their mouths about their poorly reasoned ideas).

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about. The situation that exists apparently exists only in your head.

If you personally find atheists to be dicks, it's probably because they're the only people on Earth who are willing to sincerely and objectively analyze the most fundamental parts of religion without the baggage of meaningless tradition, shoddy philosophy, and almost shocking lack of rational thought (and you're not used to it).

If somebody came up to you and said "I believe that wizards exist and that they can cast lightning bolts at will", would you take that seriously? No... that's why atheists don't take to well to equally unfounded religious beliefs and practices.

yep, internet atheism at its best. Shoving your atheist belief system down other people's throat is just as wrong as waking people up on a Sunday morning to tell them they are going to hell. There's simply no excuse for it and you don't get a special dispensation just for being Atheist. So really get the hell off your high horse. Your belief system is just as shoddy and full of holes as every other one out there.

[captpain]

Again, that distinction exists only in your head. Have you ever read a book?

I was attempting to make a point, so I used a sort of ridiculous example. Nice job ruining internet discussion for yourself...

[captpain]

yep, internet atheism at its best. Shoving your atheist belief system down other people's throat is just as wrong as waking people up on a Sunday morning to tell them they are going to hell. There's simply no excuse for it and you don't get a special dispensation just for being Atheist. So really get the hell off your high horse. Your belief system is just as shoddy and full of holes as every other one out there.

Haha, I don't know how explaining my beliefs in absolutes is forcing anything down anyone's throat. How am I supposed to explain myself?

It's a good sign that you're reading this and making very poor conclusions when you decide I'm on a high horse. And also, no, it is not equally shoddy and full of holes, and it's worse than juvenile to pretend like just saying that makes it true.