About Microsoft rejection of Cave shooters for XBLA!!!

[jp]

Personally, I'm rather glad Ketsui X is coming out on a disc...


That means I will have a physical copy that I won't have to be on XBL to play if I ever have to get another 360...

[msm]

Personally, I'm rather glad Ketsui X is coming out on a disc...


That means I will have a physical copy that I won't have to be on XBL to play if I ever have to get another 360...

they've fixed that now, you can transfer all your licences to a new console, think you can only do it once a year though? and obviously it's usless if your console breaks in the distant future but it's better than it was.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/syste ... migration/

i think it's a shame they aren't going to be on live arcade as they'd reach a much larger audience that way.

[Kaspal]

No. Because it's free on your PC.
And you can connect your PC to your TV, too.

while that's true, it be great (from my POV) to have MAME on my 360 cuz my PC its FAR FAR AWAY from where my TV is... and, since its kinda old, it wont run certain roms at a desirable speed... and thats a no no for me...

hope MS leaves a lil hole somewhere so hackers can gain some control over the console and let the party begin for homebrewers.

[Arcatech]

It might be fine and dandy to have a hard copy of two Cave shooters, but 5pb wanted to release more then two for the live service.

Since they got denied that, they chose to pick only these two. It would have been incredible to have a whole library of cave shooters on my xbox. *sigh*

[EOJ]

It might be fine and dandy to have a hard copy of two Cave shooters, but 5pb wanted to release more then two for the live service.

Since they got denied that, they chose to pick only these two. It would have been incredible to have a whole library of cave shooters on my xbox. *sigh*

No, they said they had other "arcade games" they wanted to release on XBLA, they didn't say they were "CAVE games". There are tons of good arcade games out there that don't have ports, so who knows what they had in mind. Considering Dogyuun is a fave of the 5pb guy making the CAVE ports, that could have been a game that they would have released on XBLA.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Dogyuun on XBLA... I could finally hear what the game sounds like.

[Jockel]

while that's true, it be great (from my POV) to have MAME on my 360 cuz my PC its FAR FAR AWAY from where my TV is... and, since its kinda old, it wont run certain roms at a desirable speed... and thats a no no for me...

Then get a new one ^^
It's not really expensive to get a computer that runs mame games perfectly.
e.g. i payed 200€ for a complete rig with a 4200+ Dualcore CPU.
heck, even the low-end PCs sold nowadays are capable of proper mameing.
if you want to be really cheap about playing mame on your TV, you could get an old xbox as well.

[Necronom]

while that's true, it be great (from my POV) to have MAME on my 360 cuz my PC its FAR FAR AWAY from where my TV is... and, since its kinda old, it wont run certain roms at a desirable speed... and thats a no no for me...

Then get a new one ^^
It's not really expensive to get a computer that runs mame games perfectly.
e.g. i payed 200€ for a complete rig with a 4200+ Dualcore CPU.
heck, even the low-end PCs sold nowadays are capable of proper mameing.
if you want to be really cheap about playing mame on your TV, you could get an old xbox as well.

Exactly, and if you get a system for around 400 - 500 € (thats slightly above what Sony charges for their blu-ray monster) you'll end up with a pretty decent gaming pc that is also a full-fledged multimedia player/recorder. Minus the DRM crap...
I must say I have a hard time understanding people who pump lots of money into their consoles but then feel that buying a new PC every 3-4 years is too expensive for them.

[Kaspal]

damn guys!, slow down!!... hehe.

while its true that i can go and buy a good rigg for a few bux now, im still hlding my horses, so i can get a better bang for my money when i decide to jump onto it.

actually, last week, i built a machine for a cousin with a AthlonX2 6000, with 4gigs of ram and 500 gigs on the HDD with an nVidia 8600GT for somethin like 400€.

its not like i think its expensive to buy another machine, i just dont wanna do so yet... and since i already have the X360 hooked on my TV, just wondered why theres not such thing as a MAME for it, since there were pretty good emulation on the older XBox!.... thats about it.

oh!... and for the record, its not like i cannot play properly with mame on my current machine, its just that it could be better.

[adrenalinq]

The main reason for MAME games on XBLA is achievements and global scoring system. Well, if I am able to get through Super Contra or Ibara in single credit than where is my damn medal? This is great but global scoring and "friend score" is outstanding!

About Braid. I dont say this is a bad game - it is great but too easy. If anyone can get through it in one day than this is not a good puzzle. It is just another minigame for morons. If my wife could walkthrough it without asking me for help - than this is a really easy game. Overall I believe creator did a good job but he was not too smart to make game puzzles more challenging. And if you will say tha Braid gives you just new expirience not teaching your brain - you can just wash you socks and fix something in your house. This could be more usefull new expirience.

Awesome, that sounds like a fine puzzle game. Spending a whole day on a single puzzle. Yeah, there's probably a story and gameplay in there as well.

If that was sarcastic than I can say that Keys2 has a story and boss battles but it is in japanese.

[Elixir]

About Braid. I dont say this is a bad game - it is great but too easy. If anyone can get through it in one day than this is not a good puzzle. It is just another minigame for morons. If my wife could walkthrough it without asking me for help - than this is a really easy game. Overall I believe creator did a good job but he was not too smart to make game puzzles more challenging. And if you will say tha Braid gives you just new expirience not teaching your brain - you can just wash you socks and fix something in your house. This could be more usefull new expirience.

I don't feel like digging out a quote from the developer's blog, but he did say that he wanted to make a unique game which had appeal to everyone and was accessible to all ages.

If that was sarcastic than I can say that Keys2 has a story and boss battles but it is in japanese.

This means nothing. I thought you just recommended this game because it was difficult? My point is, who wants to spend a whole day working on a single puzzle? That isn't what I call gaming, that's what I call frustrating.

[Taylor]

A game doesn’t have to be aimed at Japanese child prodigies to be fun, and it can’t be if it wants to actually turn a profit*. I'd probably get bored of gaming rather fast if every game I picked up was ruthlessly difficult. Especially to the Itagaki level, who only makes hard games if you don't exclude dubious level design and cheap bosses.

* And last I heard, Braid still hasn't.

[szycag]

You're telling me we would have gotten an XBLA Dogyuun? I want to cry almost.

[jp]

You're telling me we would have gotten an XBLA Dogyuun? I want to cry almost.

We might still.


If Ketsui X and DDP:DOJ sell enough to warrant 5PB doing more ports, then if Dogyuun is the dude's favorite shmup (and if they have the rights to port it) then I'd imagine we'd get it.


All anyone can do at this point is buy what they put out to show that more is desired. I don't really like the 'Pachis, but I'm still buying that port just because I want 5PB to keep supporting the 360 with shooters.

[adrenalinq]

This means nothing. I thought you just recommended this game because it was difficult? My point is, who wants to spend a whole day working on a single puzzle? That isn't what I call gaming, that's what I call frustrating.

I am not agree. Example - you want to learn to play chess but computer opponent on maximum level makes stupid turns. You will never learn to play in such case. I am not after frustration, I am after increasing difficulty. When the game is just a walk in the park - you will never come to play it again. If you want to play chess you need increasing difficulty and you have to stuck on some difficulty till you know the game on level you can beat AI. Then you stuck on another level. Thats how you become smarter.

What I mean is that Braid is a puzzle game but it does not need me to think - all puzzles are intuitive. Just imagine Sudoku featuring intuitive puzzles!

Braid is a minigame platformer with awesome artwork and design. It is nice but it is not a puzzle game. And 1200msp for it is almost a steal.

[Kaspal]

This means nothing. I thought you just recommended this game because it was difficult? My point is, who wants to spend a whole day working on a single puzzle? That isn't what I call gaming, that's what I call frustrating.

I am not agree. Example - you want to learn to play chess but computer opponent on maximum level makes stupid turns. You will never learn to play in such case. I am not after frustration, I am after increasing difficulty. When the game is just a walk in the park - you will never come to play it again. If you want to play chess you need increasing difficulty and you have to stuck on some difficulty till you know the game on level you can beat AI. Then you stuck on another level. Thats how you become smarter.

What I mean is that Braid is a puzzle game but it does not need me to think - all puzzles are intuitive. Just imagine Sudoku featuring intuitive puzzles!

Braid is a minigame platformer with awesome artwork and design. It is nice but it is not a puzzle game. And 1200msp for it is indeed a steal.

fixed.

[Elixir]

[I am not agree. Example - you want to learn to play chess but computer opponent on maximum level makes stupid turns. You will never learn to play in such case. I am not after frustration, I am after increasing difficulty. When the game is just a walk in the park - you will never come to play it again. If you want to play chess you need increasing difficulty and you have to stuck on some difficulty till you know the game on level you can beat AI. Then you stuck on another level. Thats how you become smarter.

Games are meant to be fun, they're not meant to be educational. Sure, you can learn a whole bunch from playing them, and play them to the point of figuring out the way the A.I. operates, but that's entirely optional. And Keys 2 isn't teaching you anything, it's just a difficult puzzle game. Figuring out puzzles in a puzzle game won't make you smarter.

What I mean is that Braid is a puzzle game but it does not need me to think - all puzzles are intuitive. Just imagine Sudoku featuring intuitive puzzles!

Braid is a minigame platformer with awesome artwork and design. It is nice but it is not a puzzle game. And 1200msp for it is almost a steal.

"minigame"? There's no minigames in it.. you have your puzzle pieces spread out across levels. But you're still collecting puzzle pieces, and this doesn't really change. Braid is also a completely optional purchase, you don't have to buy it. Like I said, it's made for all ages, isn't overly difficult, but I definitely wouldn't be able to beat it in 2 hours (or a day).

[brokenhalo]

how'd this turn into a braid thread ?

braid looks awesome, the music is good. the storyline is a bit odd (it gets better if you read the atomic bomb theory posted elsewhere on the internets) and the puzzles do ramp up in difficulty as you go along. granted the game only took me about 3 hours to beat, but there were 4 puzzles that really had me stumped for a bit. and good luck finding the stars if you really want a challenge. but as far as value goes....i didn't mind paying $15 for this, but i find it really hard to recommend it to friends at that price point, especially when there are better games for less money on xbla.

[dmauro]

and good luck finding the stars if you really want a challenge.

Yeah, you can't honestly say the game is easy unless you found all the stars on your own

[E. Randy Dupre]

Is it not pretty obvious that this guy ran through Braid without bothering to attempt most of the puzzles? I mean, you can 'finish' it without making any effort, just by jamming down 'right' on the pad and pressing jump every now and again, but that's hardly the same as actually playing the thing.

And as far as this whole thing about 5pb planning to convert other games before MS denied XBLA status for Ketsui and DOJ goes, sure, that's what the 5pb guy says, but note that he's never said *which* other games were lined up. It's entirely possible that he just came up with that as an attempt to get some extra publicity.

[moonblood]

yeah and also if Ketsui and Doj BL were 'their most promising projects' I seriously doubt they had Galuda 2, Futari, Deathsmiles or whatever, in that case surely they would've turned those into retail

[Elixir]

Is it not pretty obvious that this guy ran through Braid without bothering to attempt most of the puzzles? I mean, you can 'finish' it without making any effort, just by jamming down 'right' on the pad and pressing jump every now and again, but that's hardly the same as actually playing the thing.

That's the feeling which I'm getting. Some of the puzzles, specifically in World 6, Cascade, were surprisingly difficult. Beating a game in 2 hours shouldn't be seen as detrimental, since short games (lol, arcade games, 2D games, Portal, etc) are usually quite respected and hold beloved fans. But, I suppose the phrase "quality over quantity" can't be said when people are recommending a game which requires you to spend an entire day on a single puzzle.

It's entirely possible that he just came up with that as an attempt to get some extra publicity.

It's also entirely possible that the games won't come out, ever. Now that I think about it, the company basically has no reputation apart from visual novels and that isn't exactly promising. If it were Arika, right on, they've dealt with Galuda and Daioujou. But these things don't even have release dates, let alone wanting to know what their future holds.

[Twiddle]

news from da field

braid is overrated, $15 is too much for attempting-to-be-deep indie game wank gg nextmap xbla.

[Enhasa]

About Braid: what Twiddle said.

About topic: Anyone who is gnashing teeth over the future ports we didn't get, doesn't understand basic human behavior. Saying "we were gonna bring over all this cool shit" is just sour grapes. Here's what would have occurred had MS greenlighted the Cave ports: games come out, fail commercially, further ports wouldn't have happened anyway.

[adrenalinq]

and good luck finding the stars if you really want a challenge.

Well, yesterday I played Braid myself (my wife played it like I said before) and beat game to world 5 getting all puzzle pieces. It took me for about 30-40 minutes without getting any online youtube help for dummies.

But, I suppose the phrase "quality over quantity" can't be said when people are recommending a game which requires you to spend an entire day on a single puzzle.

Yeah, not all of us when stuck in game just use their brains many just visit youtube. Actually I dont like the modern vision of this. I love to stuck somewhere and use my brain till AI gives up. This gives much more memories when you complete the game.

yeah and also if Ketsui and Doj BL were 'their most promising projects' I seriously doubt they had Galuda 2, Futari, Deathsmiles or whatever, in that case surely they would've turned those into retail

Well, what games they planed to put then? Actually any Cave games ported to xbla is a great news.

I played Galaga Legions yesterday - man, this game sucks. At least this was my first feeling. It really looks like Geometry Wars but with fixed enemy resp points and overpowered ship. Overall another fine casual game. I need to play it more to get really honest opinion.

And now we get one more remake of remake - Lode Runner! Nice plan Microsoft!

Here's what would have occurred had MS greenlighted the Cave ports: games come out, fail commercially, further ports wouldn't have happened anyway.

I dont think so. If Metal Slug, Ikaruga and Triggerheart didnt fail what makes you think that Cave game will fail for sure?

[Enhasa]

Metal Slug isn't a shmup and Ikaruga is the one shmup that is cool to like among outsiders. About Triggerheart, I don't know what you consider a success, but here is some data I just found. (If you've played enough XBLA games to know what's better than what, don't click on this if you want to retain any faith in capitalism you still have.)


Also, most people in this thread treat puzzle games like non-shmup players treat shmups, lol.

[Necronom]

I dont think so. If Metal Slug, Ikaruga and Triggerheart didnt fail what makes you think that Cave game will fail for sure?

Bullet hell 2D shooters on the western market are basically a niche inside a niche. Expecting a similar financial success from a Cave game as from Metal Slug or Ikaruga is simply naive. And no publisher is THAT naive...

[gray117]

? ... some missing of pints here.

The issue is microsoft's branding of xbla, changes in the service suggest that these days if ikaruga was to apply for an xbla release it would be denied.

Whether a game is niche or not bumbling decision makers do not even necessarily look at the $ involved with particular games or even genres.

Instead what they do is apply broad guidlines to every application.

Part of this is done in with the well meaning, but naive, onbjective of providing a clearer experience and brand via xbla to cultivate a GROWING market - ie. a mass market that is not even necessarily there yet.

Believe it or not the fact that the cave games have 'bizarre' titles are massive down points in the eyes of the xbla managers - they fear odd named games will put off the wider market. Similarly faithful ports of arcade games are seen as 'hardcore'/'retro'/old with no unique features that make it xbox special - and thus (!?!), a proliferation of these games will also put off the mass market.

This is not to say xbla will refuse every arcade game - oh it will stock the nicely titled, more widely heard of games, but the rest will be purged for fear flooding/over whelming/frightening away the 'mass market'.

The mass market appeal in microsofts eyes is not due to xbla reacting to sales but predicting sales, and - more importantly at this point - the numbers of users that are attracted to the service for future sales.

The rubbish thing is this attitude may well change... especially to tap the jap market, but it will be too late for ddp/ketsui... shame because for fans and new comers it could have been a nice opportunity for exposure for these games and the genres...

... but then again microsoft have never really been about pleasing fans and the more specific players, they have always been about gathering the greatest lowest common denominator (which does change) at any one time ... just look at hardware ... mouse control anyone?

pfft ... the technical service is good, the machine is good, the money and numbers is probably even fine... the problems are policy makers... this post is too long...

[velocity7]

If XBLA will be a dick with games, why not petition to get it brought to PS3 DLC?

Wii DLC would also be great if not for the fact it were region locked...

[adrenalinq]

Metal Slug isn't a shmup

Oh, I am sorry - it is an RPG. What I ment is that it is a Japan arcade shooter game.

bout Triggerheart, I don't know what you consider a success, but here is some data I just found.

Well, this info stinks - 5 of my friends have this game with 200/200 gamer points. Maybe this info is for Astralia or I dont know...

gray117

Nice points but I am not agree with everything. If Microsoft will please casuals and dummies with shit like Galaga Legions and continue to work like Nintendo with their wii they will get into trouble! Casual growth of Live Arcade market will lead only in one way - they will sell less retail games. Casuals will be very buzy playing time-killing crap.