6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:11 pm

Generally, aren't the pickiest people going to have the most well defined decisions? I only like about 7 shooters, but I know why I like them. Asking me to vote for 25 is going to get you a list full of throwaway joke games.

Well, the problem is people who don't know more than say 50 shooters...

If what you are saying is that you played several hundred shmups for long enough to know if they are good and only "like" 7 of them. then I must ask: why are you on this forum?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:
JoshF wrote:
PlasmaBlooD wrote:[1] [In the Hunt]
BORDERLINER ALERT_

PlasmaBlooD doesn't get it.
In the Hunt w/ conventional scroll: shooting game
In the Hunt w/o conventional scroll: bemani wrestling game
There was talk among the mods about banning In the Hunt from the list of eligible games, but we couldn't come to a final conclusion and so it just grandfathered its way in. This might change in future votings, but it stays eligible ...for now.

Note that this is a rare and special case. All other borderliners stay the hell out. (No need for sparking the old shmups definition routine again. Please put down those advanced tables of chemistry.)

In the Hunt is a "borderliner"? Don't you think these so-called rules this site loves to be so anal about at times are getting a bit stupid now? Next thing I know, you'll be telling me games like Thunder Force II and LifeForce won't be allowed because they have both horizontal and vertical stages, and "true" shmups must only have one or the other

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:59 pm

The Coop wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:
JoshF wrote: BORDERLINER ALERT_

PlasmaBlooD doesn't get it.
In the Hunt w/ conventional scroll: shooting game
In the Hunt w/o conventional scroll: bemani wrestling game
There was talk among the mods about banning In the Hunt from the list of eligible games, but we couldn't come to a final conclusion and so it just grandfathered its way in. This might change in future votings, but it stays eligible ...for now.

Note that this is a rare and special case. All other borderliners stay the hell out. (No need for sparking the old shmups definition routine again. Please put down those advanced tables of chemistry.)
In the Hunt is a "borderliner"? Don't you think these so-called rules this site loves to be so anal about at times are getting a bit stupid now? Next thing I know, you'll be telling me games like Thunder Force II and LifeForce won't be allowed because they have both horizontal and vertical stages, and "true" shmups must only have one or the other

No reason to get upset. I'm glad that In the Hunt stays. It's clearly an oddball one, but I think you took the correct decision.
The question of forced scrolling isn't as crucial as one might think. it surely comes in handy when you have to distinguish, say, Thunderforce II from Smash TV. But after all we are voting for proto-shmups too, the earliest of which didn't even had scrolling.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:21 pm

If what you are saying is that you played several hundred shmups for long enough to know if they are good and only "like" 7 of them. then I must ask: why are you on this forum?

Because those seven are among my favorite games of all time. I suppose like was the wrong word, there are seven(-ish) shooters that I love <3.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:16 pm

The Coop wrote:Don't you think these so-called rules this site loves to be so anal about at times are getting a bit stupid now?

No. There are games that are clearly shmups and there are those that are clearly off-topic material. There are no problems with either as long as we just want to enjoy some good games. However, we're voting for the top 25 shmups here, so a line must be drawn somewhere.

nimitz wrote:Is Outzone borderline?

Unfortunately, yes. You have to pick up a power-up to make it resemble a shmup. That's one step over the line, I'm afraid.

Zebra Airforce wrote:I suppose like was the wrong word, there are seven(-ish) shooters that I love <3.

And you hate all those you don't love? Just fill up your list with games you only like. No?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:46 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:
The Coop wrote:Don't you think these so-called rules this site loves to be so anal about at times are getting a bit stupid now?
No. There are games that are clearly shmups and there are those that are clearly off-topic material. There are no problems with either as long as we just want to enjoy some good games. However, we're voting for the top 25 shmups here, so a line must be drawn somewhere.

Indeed, a line is needed to keep Metal Slug, Doom or Shadow Squadron from being called shmups. I whole heartedly agree with that. But when Defender, In the Hunt, and others like them are being argued against, called borderliners, or are being flat out rejected, then things are getting far too technical about what does and doesn't qualify for these kinds of things.

In the time I've been here, I've seen a lot of sub-genre names get thrown around. All sorts of terms that precede "shmup" get used a lot (proto-shmup, 3D shmup, arena shmup, etc.), and yet for some reason, a number of the games that receive these labels aren't considered shmups when it comes time to name games for this or that list (i.e. Granada, Galaxy Force II, Outzone, Star Fox, etc.). That strikes me as rather odd.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:55 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:All other borderliners stay the hell out. (No need for sparking the old shmups definition routine again. Please put down those advanced tables of chemistry.)

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:05 pm

Borderline (Sega 1981) is s shmup. Of course, nobody would ever vote for it...

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:12 pm

nimitz wrote:
Generally, aren't the pickiest people going to have the most well defined decisions? I only like about 7 shooters, but I know why I like them. Asking me to vote for 25 is going to get you a list full of throwaway joke games.
Well, the problem is people who don't know more than say 50 shooters...

If what you are saying is that you played several hundred shmups for long enough to know if they are good and only "like" 7 of them. then I must ask: why are you on this forum?

i hate all the shmups i used to like and play all the time lol
Played them to death and found lots of shortcomings.
I mean I used to think the Touhou series was cool and all but the slow bullets made them REAAAAALLLLY BOOOOORRRRING. You just stay there and wait 10 minutes for the next bullet to come.
And Warning Forever uh, doesn't even have dodging at the highest level of play. It doesn't have memorization either. You just shoot the boss and it dies and gives you huge points. WOW
Cho Ren Sha's all like, hey here's a gazillion shield powerups. Got boring with the number of shield hits I could take, even though that mechanic does help a player learn the game faster. I even found higher loops (such as the loop 3+4 set) unspectacular.
All the shmups I used to play are mediocre at best to me

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:31 am

That happens to most of us, I think. Your tastes change as you play the same game a lot or give other games more time. Some you'll grow to like less (I'm not nearly as fond of Perfect Cherry Blossom as I once was), and some you'll grow to like more (I hate Battle Garegga less and less every time I play it).

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:19 am

I continued to like the shmups I liked at first although I don't play them anymore cause they're kind of memorizers ^^

But Dodonpachi was among the first I played too and I kept playing it for years.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:09 am

I find any 'In The Hunt is not a shooter!' talk utterly mental.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:42 am

Hell, I still think Bangai-O should be included.

But... That's a can o' worms we've opened countless times before, and opening it again would be quite simply asinine. So please... Just... can we leave it?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:37 am

If there was a place to talk about it here, I'm sure people would. I believe the last time this topic tried to be discussed was in last year's thread about the top twenty five. Edge suggested making a thread for it so a fresh round of talks amongst people could start, but that never happened (that I saw anyway). That thread quickly degraded into a "j^aws vs others" thing unfortunately. I haven't seen a thread for discussing the topic since.

God only knows what would happen to a thread made just for "What is a shmup?" stuff, but if the site staff got involved, and people could be given a place to voice their opinions and give reasons for them, it would be nice.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:39 am

Just reading through peoples lists is surprisingly entertaining

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:03 am

henry dark wrote:I find any 'In The Hunt is not a shooter!' talk utterly mental.

Agreed, and agreed on reading the lists. I'm looking through to see what stuff I've forgotten about, which is fun.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:05 am

DP DDP DDPC DOJ DOJBL DOJDL DAIFUKKATSU FEVERON ESPRADE GALUDA GALUDA2 PROGEAR DEATHSMILES GUWANGE KETSUI KETSUIDS IBARA IBARABL PINKSWEETS MUSHI MUSHIBL FUTARI FUTARI15 FUTARI17 MMP

winner list

at least this site won't go RSG IKA EINHANDER hype though lol

Ixmucane · Post by **Ixmucane** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:50 am

Speaking of borderline shmups, can we vote...

Bangai-O
Space Invaders (and other simple constrained-movement games)
Tempest (and other fancy constrained-movement games)
Asteroids
Bosconian
Sinistar
Gravitar
After Burner (and other 3D games)
Shoot the Bullet (and other non-shooting shmups)
Robotron 2084 (and other dual joystick arena shooters)

?

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:53 am

Ixmucane wrote:Speaking of borderline shmups, can we vote...?

Bangai-O, After Burner
--> No.

Space Invaders, Tempest, Asteroids, Bosconian, Sinistar, Robotron 2084
--> Yes.

Difficult cases:
Gravitar --> I'd say yes, but it's close to the edge.
Shoot the Bullet --> There's no shooting in this one, but otherwise it's so akin to ZUN's other games that I deem it eligible.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:03 am

wait a second

Robotron 2084 is a shmup but In the hunt and Outzone are not??

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:10 am

roffle

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:29 am

nimitz wrote:wait a second

Robotron 2084 is a shmup but In the hunt and Outzone are not??

I'm not too happy with that either, but single screen arena shooters were accepted as on-topic two years ago. Personally, I'd be happy to get rid of them, but for now, they are eligible. The inclusion of single screen arena shooters is supposed to be a nod to the roots of the genre, as they are felt to be closer to proto-shmups than to Commando and the likes.

The problem with Outzone and In the Hunt is that games that gravitate towards the off-topic side of the voting are prone to open the door for others, which clearly shouldn't be eligible. Genres tend to blend into each other, so if we're steering into borderline territory, things are becoming difficult. If you allow In the Hunt (which we do), next you are allowing Contra and Metal Slug (which we don't). If you let in Outzone, next you'll have people voting for Ikari Warriors. See the problem?

As I said before, a line has to be drawn somewhere. If a game is questionable, the best we can do is to decide on a case to case basis. In this case this means: In the Hunt is still on the shmups side of things, Outzone is Ikari Warriors with a shmup powerup.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:32 am

Herr Schatten wrote:
nimitz wrote:wait a second

Robotron 2084 is a shmup but In the hunt and Outzone are not??
I'm not too happy with that either, but single screen arena shooters were accepted as on-topic two years ago.

To keep UPL games like Nova 2001 in the running, right?

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:37 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:To keep UPL games like Nova 2001 in the running, right?

Lol.

I wasn't part of the mod team back then, so I have no idea what the motivation behind the inclusion of said games really was, as it always struck me as an odd thing to do, but I think you're on the right track.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:34 am

The Coop wrote:If there was a place to talk about it here, I'm sure people would. I believe the last time this topic tried to be discussed was in last year's thread about the top twenty five. Edge suggested making a thread for it so a fresh round of talks amongst people could start, but that never happened (that I saw anyway). That thread quickly degraded into a "j^aws vs others" thing unfortunately. I haven't seen a thread for discussing the topic since.

God only knows what would happen to a thread made just for "What is a shmup?" stuff, but if the site staff got involved, and people could be given a place to voice their opinions and give reasons for them, it would be nice.

You missed this one, Coop:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=14418

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 038#244038

it's more civil than the j^aws one.

Post by **system11** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:40 am

henry dark wrote:I find any 'In The Hunt is not a shooter!' talk utterly mental.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:18 am

So I guess that one Jaleco multi-directional auto-scroller is eligible too.

Post by **system11** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:17 pm

JoshF wrote:So I guess that one Jaleco multi-directional auto-scroller is eligible too.

If it feels like it belongs, yes - which one are you thinking of? (Can't remember many Jaleco shooters past St Dragon and Saturn).

Of course the big issue this year, as with other years, is that certain games which would -definitely- hit the top 25, and potentially even the top 5, are held back because people can't vote for what they haven't played.

Hands up who has played Espgaluda 2?

Yeah - I thought so, probably 10% of the potential voters, at best.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:53 pm

bloodflowers wrote:
Hands up who has played Espgaluda 2?

(I'm putting my hand up now but you'll just have to take my word for it)

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:13 pm

which one are you thinking of?

Cybattler