When did they go wrong: Cave edition.

[RotateMe]

Don't know, because after Ibara wouldn't let me play anything anymore

[Ozymandiaz1260]

Don't know, because after Ibara wouldn't let me play anything anymore

Ibara won't let you play anything anymore?

[HeLGeN-X]

ibara

I couldn't tell the bullets from the background in this game. Hated it, I tried so hard to play it, but I don't know, everything was so jumbled and messy all around.

[jpj]

i meant from a business perspective. i'm not sure how much money AMI lost on that game (and therefore endangering their relationship with cave).

but this is a trick question, because cave are still alive and kicking (and doing quite well it seems). unlike a lot of the other threads..........

[Veracity]

Someone tell me what the first Psikyo shooting game was, so I can make the "When Did They Go Wrong: Psikyo Edition" thread.

Too late on the thread by now, but Sengoku Ace, I believe. Though if you want to be a smart-ass about it, the correct answer is probably Sonic Wings/Aero Fighters, which I think some of the founders were involved with shortly before Psikyo formed, and of which Sengoku Ace is arguably all but a re-skin switching it from jets'n'tanks to a feudal fantasy theme. With an old guy in an X-Wing who rants on about slaughtering pagans, for some reason. I don't think they were enormously fussed about thematic consistency.

[-Bridget-]

What's with all this Pink Sweets hate?! Its a Raizing game after all.
Wot The moment Cave releases something where you don't have to get out a Magnifying Glass to see the gaps, people get miffy.

Raizing's games often can feel a bit "off" to some players.


Even with Ibara...... when Im playing that, it's mostly Arrange mode. Havent really gotten into Arcade mode much yet.

I mean, just something like the omission of a "slowdown" button or something, is monumentally annoying in a game like that, to me. I know I sure hate crashing into something because Im moving a bit too fast.

Also dont like having to mash the fire button 10,000 times to get anywhere.

And the medal collecting..... meh. Neat idea in concept, but in execution it seems a bit silly to me.



Raizing isnt bad, but personally I think many of their games could use a bit more refining. Again, just the simple addition of a slowdown mechanic would do wonders for most of the stuff they made.


That's my opinion, anyway.

[orange]

Also dont like having to mash the fire button 10,000 times to get anywhere.

the autofire rate stays after you set it ;>

[Icarus]

Were slowdown mechanics added to your weapons in most of the releases pre-Cave?

Erm... no...?

Besides, user-controlled slow movement is a feature added to danmaku to make it easier for the player to navigate through the bullet clouds. Raizing is nowhere near danmaku in terms of bullet count. If anything, Raizing is closer to old-school design (Toaplan, Seibu etc) than it is to today's style of bullet-infested shooting game.

Therefore, in bullet-manics slow movement is a requirement, but not so in a Raizing style (or indeed in a classic design). If you have trouble keeping your ship speed in check and end up crashing into stuff, then I'd say that's more a problem with you than with the game design.

Although crashing into stuff is often helpful in a Raizing...

[JoshF]

Cave, Raizing, Seibu, Psikyo, Taito, and Compile made good shooting games.

[-Bridget-]

Were slowdown mechanics added to your weapons in most of the releases pre-Cave?

Erm... no...?

Besides, user-controlled slow movement is a feature added to danmaku to make it easier for the player to navigate through the bullet clouds. Raizing is nowhere near danmaku in terms of bullet count. If anything, Raizing is closer to old-school design (Toaplan, Seibu etc) than it is to today's style of bullet-infested shooting game.

Therefore, in bullet-manics slow movement is a requirement, but not so in a Raizing style (or indeed in a classic design). If you have trouble keeping your ship speed in check and end up crashing into stuff, then I'd say that's more a problem with you than with the game design.

Although crashing into stuff is often helpful in a Raizing...

No, no slowdown in earlier shmups, but then, I dont play that many of the really early ones


But it doesnt have to even be one of the "bullet cloud" games to benefit from that.

I play alot of Psikyo's stuff, and I always wish those had the slowdown thing, that'd help me out ALOT when playing those.



Also, lol, I wouldnt crash into stuff in Raizing's games so much....... if I could see the dang bullets properly

Those dang tiny metal needle bullets do NOT show up enough. Garegga and Batrider, I barely touch those cause that factor is just too dang irritating. Bakraid is ok, but I dont play those other 2 much at all.

Even something like Ibara..... cant complain too much about that one, can see all the bullets in that just fine.



At least when Im playing something by Cave, even if I die alot, I never have any of those "what hit me?" moments. And that goes for things like Dangun Feveron as well. At least when I die there, I know WHY, hah


Just a matter of preference I guess

[shoe-sama]

I play alot of Psikyo's stuff, and I always wish those had the slowdown thing, that'd help me out ALOT when playing those.

oh but they do

dragon blaze 2-7 boss

for 1 whole attack

the attack is just that awesome

[ResOGlas]

Pinks Sweets is the only one that's no good.

When they stopped Arika from doing their PS2 ports...

You both win a cookie.


I was at the Pink Sweets loketest in Akihabara, and I couldn't believe Cave was going to dumb down their games and make them easy for the masses. In their defense, at least they had a loketest for Ibara Black Label one week later.


And the Taito ports on PS2....bleh. Filtered sprites that look gross on both SD and HDTVs? What TVs are these games good for??? Not to mention the slowdown...

Taito has so much money, how could they screw up so badly compared to a tiny company like Arika? Espgaluda & DaiOuJou on PS2 are worlds better than the half-assed ports by Taito for Mushihime Sama and Ibara.

[Zebra Airforce]

I was at the Pink Sweets loketest in Akihabara, and I couldn't believe Cave was going to dumb down their games and make them easy for the masses

What?

[charlie chong]

tripper

[Hibou]

The moment Cave releases something where you don't have to get out a Magnifying Glass to see the gaps, people get miffy.

I'm not especially a Cave lover and I don't like nor know manic shooter so much, so maybe I'm wrong about this, but I'm seriously wondering if the alternance of hard games and "easier" (if it means something) ones is not a kind of obligation.

I mean, in the manic shooter genre, you have if you want to keep the player interest to offer new surprising bullet patterns in every new game, and interesting variations of the scoring systems too. Maybe the choices are somewhat limited in the end, and a large part of perfectly difficulty-balanced patterns or scoring systems have already been used.

If this was the case, never-seen-before things would *naturally* tend to be a bit more on the easy or hard side than before. And then releasing both kinds of game (or games with multiple modes) is just a kind of obligation, as there's no possibility to satisfy the casual and hardcore players with the same game anymore.

[Kiken]

I was at the Pink Sweets loketest in Akihabara, and I couldn't believe Cave was going to dumb down their games and make them easy for the masses.

WTF?

Agreeing with Zebra Airforce on this one. Pink Sweets is "easy" for about 2 stages... then the rank seriously starts to kick in by level 3 and it just gets more ridiculous after that (I'd argue that the difficulty actually tops out in stage 6, cause stage 7 is certainly easier). And if the regular mode is too easy for you, try Extended or the suicide-bullet ladened Harder.

Taito has so much money, how could they screw up so badly compared to a tiny company like Arika? Espgaluda & DaiOuJou on PS2 are worlds better than the half-assed ports by Taito for Mushihime Sama and Ibara.

Blame Cave. Taito are merely guilty by association here.

[CIT]

Pinks Sweets is the only one that's no good.

When they stopped Arika from doing their PS2 ports...

You both win a cookie.


I was at the Pink Sweets loketest in Akihabara, and I couldn't believe Cave was going to dumb down their games and make them easy for the masses.

That's not the reason I dislike Pink Sweets though. The game is actually hard as hell.

My problems with it are:

- It comes with an infinite shieldbomb, but actually you're never supposed to use it, since it makes the rank go wild. What's the point then!? All other Raizing style games reward you for bombing a lot.

- Medalling is just straight forward collecting stuff, there's hardly any "tricks" you can pull off to score better.

- The infinite lives glitch renders serious score play pointless.

- I think the game is actually too hard.

- The presentation is a pretty uninspired mishmash of Ibara backgrounds, toy figures and chicks. The music is this really upbeat J-idol techno that gets really annoying after a while.

All in all I just didn't have much fun playing it.

[zakk]

That's not the reason I dislike Pink Sweets though. The game is actually hard as hell.

My problems with it are:

- It comes with an infinite shieldbomb, but actually you're never supposed to use it, since it makes the rank go wild. What's the point then!? All other Raizing style games reward you for bombing a lot.

You're supposed to drive the rank high. REALLY high.

- Medalling is just straight forward collecting stuff, there's hardly any "tricks" you can pull off to score better.

- The infinite lives glitch renders serious score play pointless.

It's looking more and more like this is not a 'glitch' but a purposeful feature.

[Zebra Airforce]

bridget, different ship types in Ibara have different speeds. you should try them all to find a speed that suits you (don't forget to try 2p side).

[Dave_K.]

Its fine to dislike Pink Sweets when you don't know how to play it. Just because its not cookie cutter cave or raizing style gameplay doesn't mean its broken. Anyway, this is patterned after Reca, not Raizing, only difference is perverse rank manipulation that only Yagawa could dream up! Challenging traditional gameplay mechanics is a good thing, although it may not always be successful (i.e. to everyone's liking).

[lgb]

When they stopped Arika from doing their PS2 ports...

And bingo was his name-o.

You win!

[Hardstepah]

cave is still great

[CIT]

That's not the reason I dislike Pink Sweets though. The game is actually hard as hell.

My problems with it are:

- It comes with an infinite shieldbomb, but actually you're never supposed to use it, since it makes the rank go wild. What's the point then!? All other Raizing style games reward you for bombing a lot.

You're supposed to drive the rank high. REALLY high.

I don't know anybody who plays the game that way.

Can you explain yourself some more?

- Medalling is just straight forward collecting stuff, there's hardly any "tricks" you can pull off to score better.

- The infinite lives glitch renders serious score play pointless.

It's looking more and more like this is not a 'glitch' but a purposeful feature.

Yeah, that's why it's still being played in arcades all over Japan ...NOT!

[320x240]

I play alot of Psikyo's stuff, and I always wish those had the slowdown thing, that'd help me out ALOT when playing those.

My impression is that Psikyo games have the slowdown built in already Is it the very slow, very small bullets that are causing the problem? I hate those bullets.

[jpj]

You're supposed to drive the rank high. REALLY high.

I don't know anybody who plays the game that way.

hi

[EOJ]

I don't know anybody who plays the game that way.

YOS.K, Galford, and anyone else with a 15-20mil score. You have two choices for this game - drive the rank through the roof, get the infinite lives feature to kick in, and milk points like crazy for a very high score, or avoid all items and boss milking to keep the rank low and finish with a low score. There is no middle road when going for a 1CC.

The infinite lives trick is necessary for high scores. It's a feature of the game, not a glitch (this is stated in Arcadia magazine, among other places). It actually makes a lot of sense in the context of the game. Triggering this feature is just as hard, if not harder, than a normal Cave 1CC.

[Twiddle]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Damn now I'm interested in playing Pink Sweets.

[Dave_K.]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

There is a practice mode on the PCB just for this...so yes its an intended part of the game. As I stated previously, it may not be to everyone's liking.

[Randorama]

It sounds like Yagawa had a sort of post-modern mood when designing this...the "die while extending" trick is already a fine play *with* the basic notions of game design, but a bug meant to be the hardest gameplay mechanic of the game? Not my cup of tea, but congrats the creativity of Yagawa-san