Dodonpachi Daioujou a Game Made in Hell

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:00 am

Arvandor wrote:ESPgaluda is INSANELY easier than DOJ, trust me. The comparison is just ridiculous. It's like, white and black.

I quess to each his own, Esp throws alot of junk at you with a small hit box, alot of times i escape death with luck because of the box. With DOJ i see whats coming and navigate really well.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:01 am

you can "feel" the background much more

sounds dirty

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:17 am

lawnspic wrote:
Arvandor wrote:ESPgaluda is INSANELY easier than DOJ, trust me. The comparison is just ridiculous. It's like, white and black.
I quess to each his own, Esp throws alot of junk at you with a small hit box, alot of times i escape death with luck because of the box. With DOJ i see whats coming and navigate really well.

The thing with DOJ, is that it starts throwing TONS of stuff at me around Chapter 3, and I'll eventually get cornered and fail to navigate a cloud of bullets properly. ESPgaluda never throws that much at you at once... EVER. Heck, there's more bullet spam in DOJ's level 2 than there is in ESPgaluda's level 3 =P Also, DOJ gets much MUCH harder once you start playing for score, ESPgaluda is only slightly more difficult going for score, and more often than not scoring in ESP helps you survive just because of the bullet clearing. DOJ also has a second loop, ESP does not.

Also, when I play DOJ for a bit and go back, ESPgaluda always feels ten times easier since I don't have nearly as many bullets to deal with. The boss patterns in DOJ are trickier for me too, but they're nothing too scary.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:18 am

lawnspic wrote:I quess to each his own, Esp throws alot of junk at you with a small hit box, alot of times i escape death with luck because of the box. With DOJ i see whats coming and navigate really well.

For the record, ESPGaluda is considered Cave's easiest. DOJ is considered Cave's hardest. Go check out the high score threads. There's probably 40 or so Galuda clears, and maybe 3-4 DOJ clears (of the first loop even).

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:01 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
For the record, ESPGaluda is considered Cave's easiest. DOJ is considered Cave's hardest. Go check out the high score threads. There's probably 40 or so Galuda clears, and maybe 3-4 DOJ clears (of the first loop even).

I thought Ketsui was supposedly Caves hardest.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:05 am

Mushi Futari 1.5's Ultra mode is definitely Cave's hardest game.

And I find Mushi's Original mode and Mushi Futari 1.5's original mode to both be much easier to 1CC than Espgaluda, but that's just me.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:53 am

I thought Ketsui was supposedly Caves hardest.

Ketsui is noticeably easier if you don't care about your score. Sure, stage 5 (and even 4 to an extent) are hard either way, but DOJ is just mean. Then again, I've not put much time into DOJ at all.

TWE wrote:Mushi Futari 1.5's Ultra mode is definitely Cave's hardest game.

Debatable. Even throwing the DOJ 2nd loop aside, there are already people making it very far in the game, with it only being out about 2 months. Anyone know how long it took for TAC and the others to clear DOJ's first loop. If you want to get technical, clearing the 2nd loop would really be clearing the game, in which Futari couldn't hold a stick to DOJ or Ketsui. The guy in the super play vid said it took him 6-7 months of playing several hours a day to beat Doom.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:39 am

DOJ's first loop is incredibly easy compared to Futari Ultra. Seriously. Play DOJ at home then walk to the arcade and play a credit of Ultra mode in Futari. See what you think.

I didn't play DOJ much, but I nearly got to the 5th level, whereas getting to Stage 3 in Futari Ultra is a tremendous task, and anything beyond that is tough as nails. Perhaps the second loop is on par with Futari Ultra. If you haven't played through Futari Ultra, you really don't know how insanely difficult it is.

As for clearing DOJ's first loop, I doubt it took more than a couple weeks. I know a guy in England who cleared it in under 3 weeks, for example.

There's probably only one or two people who've gotten to the TLB in Ultra (the only confirmed person I know is TGA-RET), I don't know if anyone's cleared it yet but I doubt it. I'll wait and see what the TLB's patterns are like before passing final judgement.

Also, has anyone in Japan cleared Pink Sweet's Harder Mode yet? That could be in the running for hardest Cave shmup as well.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:10 am

I don't think GP is saying the first round of DOJ is harder than Futari Ultra, but I think with the second round and Hibachi it's still a harder game overall. I doubt anyone made it to Hibachi as fast as people made it to the TLB in Ultra. If they arranged it that Ultra mode was the loop to Futari's Maniac or Original, then I think it'd be the harder game to beat. In terms of making a good score though, white label DOJ is still the roughest of them all.

Even if a first round isn't particularly hard, having to do it each time to even attempt the second round adds a lot to what makes them so hard. I'm wondering if Cave will ever use loops again after the Mushi series' method of different game types.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:16 am

Good points.

BTW Pink Sweets and Ibara have an extended mode with a loop. I'm not sure if any Japanese player has 1CC'd either of those yet.

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:57 am

Clearing the first loop in DOJ isn't so hard - I started playing seriously towards the end of last week and cleared the loop yesterday, though I had a modest amount of experience with the game already. I picked the A-S ship and aimed for a score just high enough to earn both extends.

On the other hand if the game is played for score and a 2 loop clear it's surely one of the hardest videogames known to man. I like the fact that the game offers something for players of differing skill/dedication levels.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:37 pm

All im saying is that when i play this game im the one in control and can see exactly what im doing. Unlike some other Cave games. I play better in that environment. Yes Esp is easier but it seems like im using less skill. Where in DOJ i can actually realize what im doing. DOJ is a more refined manic shmup with less cheap deaths and great spot on control

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:55 pm

Are you using the kakusei mode in Galuda? Rarely does the scoring method actually make some spots safer. Sounds like lack of practice to me. Then again, I've played very little DOJ.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:55 pm

i came back to daioujou at the weekend after a year of not playing and i dont see why people think it's so hard.. i got to half way through 4th level on my 2nd go with no practise for all that time... compared to ibara i think it's easy!
that second level boss of ibara just pisses me off. i've only got past it like 4 times
why do i find it so hard??? especially when im ok at garegga

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:23 pm

charlie chong wrote:i came back to daioujou at the weekend after a year of not playing and i dont see why people think it's so hard.. i got to half way through 4th level on my 2nd go with no practise for all that time... compared to ibara i think it's easy!

The problem is people on here like to play for score, which means chaining and bomb hording. This makes it much more difficult to play. In fact its hard to "unlearn" playing this way if you've been doing it for awhile.

There is a replay on that JPN torrent site http://b-board.rdy.jp/torrent/index.php which shows a B-S player 1CC the first round by ignoring chains and bombing every hard pattern at the drop of a hat. He only got 42M at the end, while pros can get over 30M on the first level alone by chaining!

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:38 pm

This is my problem. Ketsui was the first game where I said, "You know what... fuck all that scoring"... at least towards the end of the game. I did eventually clear the first loop (after owning the PCB for some 3 years) w/ a score of 109 million. That's not bad (currently 7th in the HS thread I think) but it could've been a lot more. Took me longer to get comfortable bombing through stage 5 than it does for most teenagers to comfortable with themselves when they realize they are gay.

Anyways, I just watched the DOJ superplay DVD for shits & giggles. I have seen it before, but I didn't realize they take away all your remaining ships for the 2nd loop and make you earn them back. That is unsane. IKD is an asshole sometimes.

MovingTarget · Post by **MovingTarget** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:39 pm

The thing that annoys me about this game is that after coming back to it after several months, I've completely forgotten all my chaining routes.

After all the time I spent on it, I'd have to spend about as much time getting to the same level again.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:05 pm

Dave_K. wrote:
charlie chong wrote:i came back to daioujou at the weekend after a year of not playing and i dont see why people think it's so hard.. i got to half way through 4th level on my 2nd go with no practise for all that time... compared to ibara i think it's easy!
The problem is people on here like to play for score, which means chaining and bomb hording. This makes it much more difficult to play. In fact its hard to "unlearn" playing this way if you've been doing it for awhile.

There is a replay on that JPN torrent site http://b-board.rdy.jp/torrent/index.php which shows a B-S player 1CC the first round by ignoring chains and bombing every hard pattern at the drop of a hat. He only got 42M at the end, while pros can get over 30M on the first level alone by chaining!

well im playing somewhere in between..i chain where possible and hoard bombs as much as possible but i'm no master at chaining..
how many extends should you have got by the 5th level?? (the furthest i've ever got)

ktownhero · Post by **ktownhero** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:18 pm

charlie chong wrote:how many extends should you have got by the 5th level?? (the furthest i've ever got)

Well, I guess that depends on how much you plan on dying after level 4!

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:33 pm

One thing to take into consideration in how hard a game is, is the length it takes to finish the game. In a one loop game like mushi ultra, you have to concentrate for 25 minutes. If you want to finish ddp doj, it will take 42 minutes to complete. Those extra 17 minutes really do take a toll on a player mentally.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:11 pm

twe: i've seen a jap player GAL with 12 million ALL on pink sweets harder mode...

different games are harder to different people. there are many japanese players who can make it into the 2nd half of loop 2 on DOJ, but usually in the 400-700 mill range. but for people who can do over 1.5 billion, and defeat hibachi...? you can probably count them on 1 hand.

i think the way they do it on the cowboy's forum is best: what percentage of the world record has been achieved by a western player

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:57 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
TWE wrote:Mushi Futari 1.5's Ultra mode is definitely Cave's hardest game.
Debatable. Even throwing the DOJ 2nd loop aside, there are already people making it very far in the game, with it only being out about 2 months. Anyone know how long it took for TAC and the others to clear DOJ's first loop. If you want to get technical, clearing the 2nd loop would really be clearing the game, in which Futari couldn't hold a stick to DOJ or Ketsui. The guy in the super play vid said it took him 6-7 months of playing several hours a day to beat Doom.

Well, that final boss is a really huge obstacle.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:09 pm

shoe-sama wrote:that final boss is a really huge obstacle.

Have you ever seen Hibachi?

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:26 pm

Yeah, but I'm not at a level to judge which one is more difficult with or without additional information. Just wanted to throw that video in.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:42 pm

shoe-sama wrote:Well, that final boss is a really huge obstacle.

That's not even the TLB. Once you get past that you have to deal with a nasty TLB.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:20 am

I think if you were looking for an easy ride with DOJ you were kidding yourself.

I've got Mushi and had DOJ (want it again) and I can honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that DOJ turns ugly around level 3 to the point where no stage in Mushi will ever go.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:47 am

HIBACHI

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:58 am

I don't even understand how dodging through that final pattern is humanly possible =/ That's insane.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:39 am

Dave_K. wrote:The problem is people on here like to play for score, which means chaining and bomb hording. This makes it much more difficult to play. In fact its hard to "unlearn" playing this way if you've been doing it for awhile.

Heh, I practically learned to play shmups for score from the beginning. My first non-freeware shmup was Ikaruga.

As for bomb hoarding, I'm the worst. I played Progear for over three hours before I even noticed there was a bomb button.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:08 am

zakk wrote:HIBACHI

That was hilariously funny. I couldn't even make out half the shit that was going on!