Replays = legit?

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Nemo
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Post by Nemo »

BulletMagnet wrote: How exactly is one supposed to make that happen? If someone's played the game before and seen a replay of it, long before the tournament, such a prohibition's more or less moot...not to mention, of course, as has been said, that there's no way to stop people from practicing as they please anyway.
This was brought up earlier, if they watched the replay prior to the tournament, it's the same as them having experience playing the game prior to tournament, there's no way to compensate for that, but we can at least control what happens during the torunament. And when choosing games that don't have a lot of veterans, you're picking games that not many people have invested a lot of time into and therefore not a lot of people have probably watched replays for.
Obviously looking for games with "fewer veterans" is not going to be perfect either (there's always SOMEone who's had more experience on a game than most others), but such a policy (if one can call it that) is not the same thing as the replay issue. Replays involve, as you've said outright yourself, the issue of personal fulfillment, which, in my opinion, ought to be left to individual players to decide. Choosing a less popular game which most of the participants start on "equal footing" has nothing to do with fulfillment, it's an attempt to get less-played games into the spotlight and give as few as possible an advantage.
Replays have a personal fulfillment aspect, but they also have an advantage aspect, which is why people use them in the first place. If you have 2 equal players, put a game in front of them and have one person using replays and one person not, the person using replays clearly has an advantage.
In short, you have to choose whether "honor" or high scores mean more to you: you really can't have it both ways, at least not completely. If you want to get the highest possible scores you can in a relatively short span of time (which is basically what this tournament's about), you'll likely have to watch some replays, since "raw" experimentation without aid takes longer. Some have chosen to do that. If, on the other hand, you'd rather not "spoil" games for yourself, tournament or no tournament, then take the longer road and do things yourself. Others have chosen to do this, myself included. So make your choice, and realize that you can't tell anyone else which choice is right or wrong. It's as simple as that. If "unlocking your potential" over longer spans of time and at your own pace appeals more to you, then stick to the high score threads, which don't have deadlines, and feel free to climb in the rankings as gradually as you'd prefer. In a limited engagement such as this, to do that you're going to have to sacrifice something, and whether you do or not is your choice, no one will get on your case about it either way: when trouble starts is when you don't respect the decisions of others on that same choice.
View the tournament like a race and the highest score is the finish line. Everyone is given a week to reach the finish line, yet as soon as the race starts you have some skipping stages in the race and taking short cuts. Part of the race is learning the game and then the other part is execution, the most skilled players will be able to master the course most effectively. Yet if some people are able to skip the part where you learn the game, they will have more time to spend on execution, creating a disadvantage for these other people. If being a skilled shooter player is about solving the game and not just about executing, then it makes no sense to skip a critical part of the process. If this tournament is simply about trying to achieve the highest scores possible, then why are we wasting our time with games not a lot of people have put time into instead of games people have so we can rock out some mad scores?
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

This sounds like a "this is the way I think and you're a bastard if you disagree with me" type of thread.
Either that or is the kind of thread where one person is attempting to impose their way of thinking over others.

My opinion in short: people practice the way they want to practice. If someone wants to short-cut with a replay, so what? It still takes skill, understanding of strategy and system, and lots of practice in order to perform particular feats in a game. Let the player decide how they wish to learn a game, as at the end of the day, you have no right to impose yourself on someone's practice habits.

By the way, this tournament is meant to be FUN. There are no prizes at stake, no reputation booster, no 15 minutes of fame. People are participating to enjoy themselves. Lighten up and relax. One person has taken the time and effort to organise something big and enjoyable for everyone, and all you can do is nit-pick and complain.

Or are you the kind of person to whine and moan about the tiniest little detail?
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Twiddle
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Post by Twiddle »

i smell the jealousy of one man directed at people who decide to use all the tools available to them
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
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_Bnu
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Post by _Bnu »

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GET IT MORE
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('3`) chuuuuuuu
Team apes theme video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pge3IQtdrg4
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DJ Incompetent
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Post by DJ Incompetent »

_Bnu wrote:pic above
:lol: That's my line! :lol:

'Agreeing with Icarus. How is anybody going to stop 90 people from practicing in the way they choose?

Reason #87 this is a for shits-'n-giggles tourney. Get somebody to invent a uber-secure version of MAME and we can gladly reargue these type of topics.
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Davey
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Post by Davey »

Further derailment...
Gopher's Ambition wrote:The goal of a shooter isn't just to figure out a route, it is to execute it. You could have the greatest plan in the world, and yet you might never pull it off with your lack of reflexes.
For me, figuring out the route is way more interesting than the execution. It's much more entertaining to decipher a path through a screen full of chaos than it is to practice nailing down the timing of that path down to the microsecond.

<fanboyism>
Which is probably why I like random games, like Kenta Cho's, much better, as the figuring out part is constanly done on the fly every time you play.
</fanboyism>

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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BulletMagnet
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Nemo wrote:If you have 2 equal players, put a game in front of them and have one person using replays and one person not, the person using replays clearly has an advantage.
No one's arguing that. What IS being argued is, under the circumstances, is it worth being concerned about? As I said earlier, people are in the tournament for different reasons.
View the tournament like a race and the highest score is the finish line.
Methinks that's something of an imperfect analogy...maybe a "race within a trip" is more accurate (it's the best I could come up with, anyhow). Playing and gradually getting better at a shmup is like a long road trip: some simply want to get the trip overwith quickly, and thus whip out the road maps and GPS system (replays, etc.), trick out their car to make it go as fast as possible, and haul butt the whole way there; the trip is thus shorter. Others, like you and me, have a general idea of where we're going, but don't mind wandering a bit, stopping to take in the scenery, making a few wrong turns, or just taking it slow. This makes the trip slower for us, but also gratifying in a different way, and more enduring.

Now say that somewhere along your leisurely trip you're invited to enter a race (the tournament), against a mix of drivers of various skill levels and such, some much more advanced than yourself: unless you trick out your car and study the race route, do you have much chance of winning? Obviously not. But think about everyone who enters a marathon footrace, as opposed to a car race: does everyone train for years hoping to win it? No, they enter the race simply because they want to be there, they want to be part of the experience. That alone is reason enough to participate, even though you know that your techniques are no match for the others.' They're not demanding that you be able to keep up with them: is it fair of you, in turn, to ask them all to un-tweak their cars and stop looking at the maps? If "the experience" is the most important part of the deal for you, then why are you so concerned about others reaching a certain point more quickly than you in the first place?
If being a skilled shooter player is about solving the game and not just about executing, then it makes no sense to skip a critical part of the process.
It's not a matter of "shortcuts" or "cheating," it's simply taking a faster, and completely legitimate (they're still, in the end, doing everything themselves, once they're done studying) route to the same destination. What denotes a "critical part of the process" for you is simply an unnecessary side trip for others. If others prefer to make the trip quicker than you, what skin is that off your nose? You still get to take in as much of the process as you please. Once more, you can't have it both ways: you either want that high score and you want it fast, or you don't mind waiting. Neither thought process is wrong, under tournament circumstances or not, and you're simply going to have to deal with it when others choose a different route than you.
If this tournament is simply about trying to achieve the highest scores possible, then why are we wasting our time with games not a lot of people have put time into instead of games people have so we can rock out some mad scores?
Once again, I think you're taking this tournament too seriously. The prime reason it exists is so that everyone can enjoy being part of it; we've not gathered together here as a community simply for exchanging strategies and whatnot, we also want to just enjoy our shared hobby of shmupping amongst ourselves. I don't think anyone here is going for a world record, though we are all trying our best, using whatever methods we've chosen. As you say, if seeing big numbers is all we wanted, we might as well have stuck to stuff people are already good at: this fact in itself should make it clear that whatever scores are achieved are only a secondary aspect of the tournament. As such, I'll suggest once again, just enjoy playing in your own way and let others do the same.
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EOJ
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Post by EOJ »

Nemo wrote:The difference between shooter competitions and most other forms of competition is that in shooters you're playing against a predictable, never changing foe. Once you've learned a game, you've learned it, there's no way for the game to adjust like a human opponent can in say a basketball game.
Ever heard of Rank? Hmm? Guess not. Many games also have random elements thrown in (like the Galudas with some enemy patterns and bonus item appearances, and most Psikyo games with their random first 4 stages).
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Post by Douggie »

When I first read the topic I thought it was about questioning people that put replays of shmups (or other videogames) on the Internet, as the game is copyrighted by the developer/publisher of the games (I don't know whether this is a big issue or not for them?). Guess it should've replays=legal then, instead of legit!
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Nemo
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Post by Nemo »

BulletMagnet wrote:
Nemo wrote:If you have 2 equal players, put a game in front of them and have one person using replays and one person not, the person using replays clearly has an advantage.
No one's arguing that. What IS being argued is, under the circumstances, is it worth being concerned about? As I said earlier, people are in the tournament for different reasons.
Well I clearly failed to understand what this tournament was about to begin with. I thought it was about deciding who the most skilled players on this forum are, but that's not the case. So win or lose I can rest assured knowing I'm still the best. :lol:
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Twiddle
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Post by Twiddle »

think of how much better you can be using all the tools everyone else is using

come on man read the strategy forums
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
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Post by sikraiken »

Nemo wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:
Nemo wrote:If you have 2 equal players, put a game in front of them and have one person using replays and one person not, the person using replays clearly has an advantage.
No one's arguing that. What IS being argued is, under the circumstances, is it worth being concerned about? As I said earlier, people are in the tournament for different reasons.
Well I clearly failed to understand what this tournament was about to begin with. I thought it was about deciding who the most skilled players on this forum are, but that's not the case. So win or lose I can rest assured knowing I'm still the best. :lol:
When I played DDP, I didn't watch replays or look at strat guides until a while after I had stopped playing the game. (the only thing I remember from a replay I watched a LONG time before that was you could go through some of the blue bullets in the stage 3 boss, but I would have figured that out on my own anyway). <sarcasm> I'M THE BEST. </sarcasm>

Edit: Oh yeah, same thing for Progear, but WHO CARES REALLY. Score, as long as it isn't cheating (slowdown/infinite lives/invincibility/savestate use during the play or anything else you can think of to manipulate in game) is more impressive to me than the methods they used.
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Post by MattR »

Hi Guys,

Being a newcomer to this forum I thought I would share my point of view.

Personally I don't think the Shmups following is so great that you can afford to exclude people from an event because they don't have access to a real version, but I do think it is important to note the platform the high score was achieved.

As far as replys and strategy go. I found the combination of text and replay fantastic as the strategy text on its own is difficult to comprehend for a beginner not familiar with the game in such detail. There is a difference between learning to play the game well and developing a strategy to play the game on 1CC or achieve the highest score.

If people are going to cheat then you can't stop that. I think the honour system you have here is great. There can only be 1 highest score so at the end of the day for most people that isn't the most important thing. Just participating is.

Cheers,
Matt
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

Silly argument.

Replays are only applicable if the standards in the replay match your own.


In any case, your only a masters puppet even if you can achieve what you see on the screen.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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Nemo
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Post by Nemo »

I realize the discussion of replays is a touchy subject because so many people here use them and for someone like me to call into the question the vailidity of it is threatening. No one is trying to force you to play exactly like I do, but I just honestly fail to see why it would be so hard for people to put aside personal agendas and practices for a single week for the spirit of competition. To embrace competition in its purest form, to engage a game solely with your mind and your thumbs. But tis not important since no one here a but a handful seem to care.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Nemo wrote: No one is trying to force you to play exactly like I do,
You'd like that.
To embrace competition in its purest form,
This is exactly why people will turn to replays. You have a problem with competition.
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

Nemo wrote:No one is trying to force you to play exactly like I do, but I just honestly fail to see why it would be so hard for people to put aside personal agendas and practices for a single week for the spirit of competition.
What exactly are you doing besides trying to force people to play exactly the way you do? Just let people play the way they want.
Nemo wrote:To embrace competition in its purest form, to engage a game solely with your mind and your thumbs.
What do you think people have been doing? Playing with their feet?
Everyone has been giving it their all, exchanging tips with each other and trying to best scores - their own, their team mates and the opposition's - and if that isn't as pure a competition as you can get, I don't know what is.

You baffle me, my dear boy. I reckon its time you stopped thinking about the little things and got down to actually enjoying something for what it is. All this pointless overanalysing is not good for the health.
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Nemo
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Post by Nemo »

Icarus wrote:
Nemo wrote:No one is trying to force you to play exactly like I do, but I just honestly fail to see why it would be so hard for people to put aside personal agendas and practices for a single week for the spirit of competition.
What exactly are you doing besides trying to force people to play exactly the way you do? Just let people play the way they want.
I'm saying outside of this competition. A sport for instance, depending on where it's played, can have slightly different rules to facilitate the best form of competition for that group.
What do you think people have been doing? Playing with their feet?
Everyone has been giving it their all, exchanging tips with each other and trying to best scores - their own, their team mates and the opposition's - and if that isn't as pure a competition as you can get, I don't know what is.
You're not using your mind to solve the game when your using ideas and things other people created (i.e. replays). The reason any of this is even issue has to do with the nature of the competition, the fact that it's timed and you're playing against a computer opponent.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Nemo, just play the best you can your way and don't give a shit about the replay guys. Pretty simple. It's a team game anyways, not deciding which player is the best.
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Post by Icarus »

Nemo wrote:I'm saying outside of this competition. A sport for instance, depending on where it's played, can have slightly different rules to facilitate the best form of competition for that group.
Weren't you saying "in this competition" about five posts ago?
Make up your mind.

And unlike sports, we don't actually have a different place to play. Unless you're willing to fund for a big hall and organise a huge meet where you can enforce your "no replays" rules, then its highly unlikely that anyone will give a damn about your standpoint on their usage here.

You can't enforce it on an anonymous, faceless webforum anyway.
Nemo wrote:You're not using your mind to solve the game when your using ideas and things other people created (i.e. replays). The reason any of this is even issue has to do with the nature of the competition, the fact that it's timed and you're playing against a computer opponent.
You're not using your mind when you read through the 15 page score thread and see various tips and hints dotted around, either. Thats the nature of a webforum. Even if you somehow managed to stop people from using a replay to study during tournament time, someone is bound to blab some info which can be picked up by the rest of the competitors.

Roffles.

In fact, strategy here isnt' even limited to the High Score and Strategy Forums. I've seen pages of tips and hints end up on later pages of discussion threads. Heck, I'm probably guilty of about 50% of those tips posts outside of those forums.

And its a complete non-issue. The only person who is trying to make it an issue is you.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

I'm guilty of protips.

I forgot to add that this competition is theoretically for fun, which may have been brought up and should've ended the argument.
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

Rob wrote:I forgot to add that this competition is theoretically for fun, which may have been brought up and should've ended the argument.
It has been brought up. Plenty of times already.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Feka Team is now the official no replays team to make Nemo feel better about himself. I won't watch another replay this tournament to add to the authenticity.
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Post by EOJ »

I'm going to watch replays until my eyes bleed. After that, I'm going to videotape myself watching replays, and then watch that.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

The officialness of no replays is becoming suspect for Team Feka.
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Post by EOJ »

Indeed.
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

Rob wrote:The officialness of no replays is becoming suspect for Team Feka.
CHEATER!
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Icarus wrote: CHEATER!
falsificare
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The Coop
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Post by The Coop »

_Bnu wrote:Image

GET IT MORE
GET LUCKY


Anyway, I don't think I've ever watched a reply before (unless you count the demos that run while a game's waiting to be played). Not because of some "holier than thou/it's cheating" mind set or anything, but because in truth, I just don't enjoy watching a game be played. Sure, I have no problems when it's a two player game and both players have to take turns, but I've just never felt the urge to sit down and watch someone play through an entire game. Why? Because frankly, I'd rather be playing it. And if I can't/aren't allowed to play it, then I'm just not interested. I'll go find something I can be directly involved in... be it working on an illustration, a story, a tune, or a woman ;)
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Icarus
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Post by Icarus »

Rob wrote:falsificare
Image

LOL. ( ̄▽ ̄)

DISCLAIMER: This screenshot is fake. Don't get your panties in a bunch. ^_-
Last edited by Icarus on Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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