What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[iconoclast]

I don't think I've ever felt the need to grind in a JRPG, with one exception: The Last Remnant (360 ver). But that's only because the level progression system was designed in a strange way. You're much better off if you avoid every non-essential battle possible until you gain access to an optional zone that's full of high level enemies. Killing them gives your party a massive stat boost, so if you grind them for a while, you'll end up being much stronger than you would be if you played the game normally. They changed that (along with a bunch of other stuff) with the PC release, though.

With that being said, TLR, Vesperia, Valkyria Chronicles, Ys: Felghana, and Devil Survivor were my top five RPGs from last gen, as long as you aren't counting Dark Souls 1 & 2 and Demon's Souls (since those would be numbers 1, 2, and 3, respectively). I've tried playing Xenoblade twice, but both times I stopped after 15-20 hours because the combat is so dull. Everything else about the game is fine, but it's just not very fun to play. If the story was as interesting as something like Nier or Deadly Premonition I'd be more willing to put up with the mediocre gameplay to see it through, but it seemed pretty typical to me (though it was well done). Still, I'd like to finish it before the sequel comes out.

[Jonathan Ingram]

as long as you aren't counting Dark Souls 1 & 2 and Demon's Souls

No real reason not to count them. JRPG is not a stand-alone genre with universal conventions, but a regional distinction.

[mastermx]

I wouldn't count the souls series as Rpgs. It's got Rpg elements, but I don't see it as an Rpg.

[Some-Mist]

as long as you aren't counting Dark Souls 1 & 2 and Demon's Souls

No real reason not to count them. JRPG is not a stand-alone genre with universal conventions, but a regional distinction.

I consider them to be RPGs but they are vastly different from the more traditional JRPGs being discussed. I would almost label them as ARPGs moreso than JRPGs... but I agree with you

[mastermx]

Yeah actually ARPG would fit the souls series.

[Mischief Maker]

as long as you aren't counting Dark Souls 1 & 2 and Demon's Souls

No real reason not to count them. JRPG is not a stand-alone genre with universal conventions, but a regional distinction.

If you sit someone down to play Anachronox they'll totally say it's a JRPG.

JRPGs came about back in the age of The Wizardry/Ultima/Might and Magic triune. Playing RPGs back then was serious business that involved vast amounts of graph paper. People sitting on the couch in front of a console aren't in a comfortable place to start mapping graphs, so developers tried to find a ways to adapt Wizardry to the couch and pad. In my mind, the only JRPG that ever succeeded at that goal was Phantasy Star 2 (and then only if you didn't use the included hint book).

Final Fantasy came along and gave up on trying to make the maps difficult to navigate and the true JRPG was born: the simplistic combat of Wizardry and nothing else. Grind, grind, grind your way through dungeons that might as well be hallways with slight branches here and there. There's a whole world implied, but your exploration of it is very explicitly cordoned off. Final Fantasy 7 breathed some life back into JRPGs by rewarding the player with an anime movie they can watch in tiny portions. Final Fantasy 13 was just the JRPG that stopped pretending.

[Jonathan Ingram]

If you sit someone down to play Anachronox they'll totally say it's a JRPG.

No doubt they will. Anachronox features a pre-set party of characters, a turn-based battle system and colorful art direction which many believe to be integral features of a role-playing game from the Japanese shores. That JRPGs don't share some traits and features is not my point, however. By and large they do and it should be evident to anyone who's cared to explore them beyond Final Fantasy and a few other well known names. Regardless, any attempt to establish JRPG as a genre with its own conventions rather than a blanket term for a role-playing game from Japan will inevitably fall flat on its face when you factor in such unorthodox of its representatives as Brandish, Vagrant Story, King's Field, Xanadu Next, Shadow Tower, Dragon's Dogma, Tactics Ogre, Linda Cube, Demon's Souls and Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter which neither follow the templates established by the progenitors of the JRPG phenomenon nor share much in common with their counterparts in the West, or with each other indeed.

Final Fantasy came along and gave up on trying to make the maps difficult to navigate and the true JRPG was born: the simplistic combat of Wizardry and nothing else.

The original Wizardry isn't terribly complex either. The main impediment to progress was the game's outrageous difficulty, not the complexity of its mazes. Aside from being one of the first graphic RPGs, it has no real redeeming qualities.

I wouldn't count the souls series as Rpgs. It's got Rpg elements, but I don't see it as an Rpg.

Why not? In Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, the choices you make throughout the game and the way you interact with the world have a much more profound effect on gameplay than in... Hell, how many JRPGs even offer you a choice? Aside from the Chaos Frame in Tactics Ogre, the World/Character Tendency mechanic in Demon's Souls is as role-playing as you can get in a Nihongo RPG.

[Mischief Maker]

Regardless, any attempt to establish JRPG as a genre with its own conventions rather than a blanket term for a role-playing game from Japan will inevitably fall flat on its face when you factor in such unorthodox of its representatives as Brandish, Vagrant Story, King's Field, Xanadu Next, Shadow Tower, Dragon's Dogma, Tactics Ogre, Linda Cube, Demon's Souls and Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter which neither follow the templates established by the progenitors of the JRPG phenomenon nor share much in common with their counterparts in the West, or with each other indeed.

Our disagreement is one of terms. You're using JRPG as a blanket term for RPGs from Japan and including several titles in your list that are not JRPGs. Tactics Ogre is an SRPG, a different genre from JRPG. If you're including Demon's Souls as a JRPG you might as well call Devil May Cry a JRPG. Hell, you could argue that Fantasy Zone is a JRPG. This is silly, you're misusing the term.

I would not call the Etrian Odyssey games JRPGs, despite their anime graphics. Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, even Radiant Historia: all JRPGs.

[Jonathan Ingram]

You're using JRPG as a blanket term for RPGs from Japan and including several titles in your list that are not JRPGs. Tactics Ogre is an SRPG, a different genre from JRPG.

It's precisely because I use it as a blanket term that I file all role-playing games developed in Japan under it, regardless of whether they are tactical, action-based or follow the classic gameplay formula of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

If you're including Demon's Souls as a JRPG you might as well call Devil May Cry a JRPG.

Aside from the fact that in both games you attack enemies in real-time, what else is similar? If you don't consider Demon's Souls a role-playing game, I'd like to hear why.

Hell, you could argue that Fantasy Zone is a JRPG

Well, that's random. Fantasy Zone has got exactly zero role-playing elements.

This is silly, you're misusing the term.

Hardly. No one thus far(at least to my knowledge) has managed to define the criteria with which we can safely determine what constitutes a JRPG and what doesn't, hence all the confusion around the term.

I would not call the Etrian Odyssey games JRPGs, despite their anime graphics. Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, even Radiant Historia: all JRPGs.

Based on what criteria? And what about 7th Dragon which is a Dragon Quest/Etrian Odyssey hybrid? Where do we put it?

Also, following these screens Dragon Quest is very obviously not a JRPG either:

Dragon Quest:




Ultima:




Wizardry:

[mastermx]

Gta 5 and even cod have Rpg elements, that doesn't make them rpgs. If a game's main focus is on action, then it is not an Rpg. Jrpgs used turn based combat, and it's main gameplay allow you to relax and make decisions from the comfort of a menu. ARPGs walk a fine line. God knows I've gotten into enough discussions proving to people that zelda games are not Rpgs. But that's another story.

[ACSeraph]

Regardless of whether the term literally means "Japanese Role Playing Game" or not, it has come to describe a very specific type of Final Fantasy-esque experience. I would argue that they aren't even role playing games honestly, since you have no decisions to make and no impact on the world. So while Ill agree that Dark Souls is literally a JRPG, the term as it is used now and has been for decades does not refer to Dark Souls. As for what is and is not a JRPG being nebulous, what isn't? Is Commando a shmup? How about Contra then? How about Doom?

Final Fantasy 13 was just the JRPG that stopped pretending.

Painful painful truth, but I was able to enjoy them more when they were pretending.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Currently playing Beyond Good & Evil, likeable enough and it makes a nice change from the fast-paced stuff I usually play. In a word I'd call it 'solid', nothing seems spectacular so far but it's all quite well done and the world and character design are likeable. Also playing Panzer Dragoon Orta again, which might be the best example of a rail shooter in existence - unless anyone can think of a better one?

[Jonathan Ingram]

If a game's main focus is on action, then it is not an Rpg. Jrpgs used turn based combat, and it's main gameplay allow you to relax and make decisions from the comfort of a menu.

Nope. These are just some arbitrary rules that you've made up to prove your point. I could just as easily say that if a game doesn't roll the dice before your every action, then it's not an RPG.

Regardless of whether the term literally means "Japanese Role Playing Game" or not, it has come to describe a very specific type of Final Fantasy-esque experience.

Here's something I came across when I googled 'Dark Souls JRPG':



http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606312-d ... s/66209351

There ya go, lads.

[mastermx]

If a game's main focus is on action, then it is not an Rpg. Jrpgs used turn based combat, and it's main gameplay allow you to relax and make decisions from the comfort of a menu.

Nope. These are just some arbitrary rules that you've made up to prove your point. I could just as easily say that if a game doesn't roll the dice before your every action, then it's not an RPG.

Regardless of whether the term literally means "Japanese Role Playing Game" or not, it has come to describe a very specific type of Final Fantasy-esque experience.

Here's something I came across when I googled 'Dark Souls JRPG':



http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606312-d ... s/66209351

There ya go, lads.

So gta v is an Rpg? Your stats level up with use don't they? Of course my rules are arbitrary, all rules are(well most anyway). My rules make the most sense to me. I don't really understand your perspective, how would you classify an Rpg, and where do you draw the line? I'm open to changing my rules if someone else's make more sense. I'm not infallible.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Why do you keep bringing GTA into this? Do you honestly not see the difference between the Souls games and GTA?

[mastermx]

Why do you keep bringing GTA into this? Do you honestly not see the difference between the Souls games and GTA?

Please enlighten me.

I've heard people claim that God of War is an Rpg, that Dmc is an Rpg. That zelda is an Rpg. All these games allow you to upgrade stats with play. Does that make them rpgs. I don't know whether you're trying to troll me. But you clearly can't seem to follow the reasoning I'm putting forward to you.

[Jonathan Ingram]

You're grasping at straws here. Incremental life and power upgrades usually obtained at pre-set points in game don't suddenly turn an action/adventure into an RPG, nor do the extremely rudimentary experience systems in the form of orbs and whatnot. In the Souls games attributes define your character's class, affect NPC dialogue options and services, command what weapons, skills and spells you can use at any given time and determine the overall performance of your abilities(grinding past a certain threshold effectively enables you to one-shot most every enemy). Never mind the character creation and the presence of auxiliary role-playing systems such as World/Character Tendency and the Covenants.

Frankly, I'm baffled that I have to explain such simple things, especially in relation to the Souls games which have a more rightful claim to being referred to as role-playing than anything Japan has produced in years. No one aside from the alternatively minded deviants considers God of War an RPG, whereas the Souls games are regarded as such even among the purists from RPG Codex which tend to be very particular about what they choose to stick the RPG label to.

[mastermx]

Those are fair points. And as I said earlier in this thread, souls walks a thin line, like many action rpgs. Souls feels less rpgish to me because it relies on reflex and skill. A bad player can grind for all he wants and still get destroyed by manus or the pursuer. My gripe with defining the genre is not with souls, it's my fault I didn't make that more clear. I've just had many gamers who have tried vehemently to convince me that God of war was an Rpg.

Genres are becoming more and more complicated. Rpgs have so many sub genres these days. Concepts and game systems are becoming more varied which I like. And the more this happens, the more that genre(lizing) things becomes a nuisance.

When I play dark souls, I don't feel like I'm playing an Rpg. Though I can see why people may disagree with me.

[Mortificator]

You're using JRPG as a blanket term for RPGs from Japan and including several titles in your list that are not JRPGs. Tactics Ogre is an SRPG, a different genre from JRPG.

It's precisely because I use it as a blanket term that I file all role-playing games developed in Japan under it, regardless of whether they are tactical, action-based or follow the classic gameplay formula of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

Isn't it contradictory to be literal about the "Japanese" part of JRPG, while being fuzzy about the "role-playing" part? Think of actual role-playing, like you may have done with your therapist or sex partner.

Actual role-playing, which is not reliant on statistics or combat systems.

Where is this role-playing in Dark Souls that it isn't in Final Fantasy, for you to say Souls is more rightfully called role-playing?

[Jonathan Ingram]

In the context of videogames, the term role-playing, on top of many other things, implies the presence of a system of rules(almost always related to morality) which determine the outcome of the game and/or influence its course in one way or another depending on the decisions made by the player.

Example of this in Demon's Souls: indiscriminately killing NPCs and invading other players' worlds will collapse your character tendency to Pure Black, lower your maximum HP in Soul Form and put you on the evil path of sorts by making the game's most evil NPC Mephistopheles spawn on the second floor of the Nexus and unlocking a new quest unavailable on Neutral and Pure White tendencies.

Example of this in Ultima VI: killing NPCs, taking things in people's homes and pickpocketing will make you lose your Karma points which may have an adverse effect on the game and block you from completing it since you need at least 75 Karma points to do so.

Example of this in Final Fantasy: ???

[BrianC]

Still playing Mario Golf World Tour. Getting very close to getting all of the moon coins for the non-DLC courses. Definitely much harder than the star coins. Computer players make long putts, chip in shots, and sometimes even hole in one the shorter holes. Coins and rings are in more out of the way areas too. Courses have strong wind, as well.

What do you think of the Worlds of Ultima games? I like how gog.com has those and Ultima IV for free. Too bad the earlier Ultimas aren't the Atari 800 or C64 versions.

[BIL]

This relaxing weekend I been divin in my vintage JP gaming crack stash like ol' Uncle Scrooge. Life's good! I hope I don't get hit by a bus too soon, still much appreciations to do.

[Jonathan Ingram]

What do you think of the Worlds of Ultima games?

Ultima VI graphics and gameplay, but shorter, less cryptic and in a different setting. I suggest you try Ultima VI first and see if you like it.

[drauch]

Lol, Snatcher has been on my 'to play' list even longer that FF7 was! I just have never gotten around to buying a Sega CD....

I wouldn't think it's worth it considering the price of a Sega CD, coupled with the price of SNATCHER. There's always Kega Fusion.

this - I just played it using other means

Yeah... I bought Snatcher like three years ago for the retarded price of $150. Now it's like twice that price. Add on the cost of a SegaCD, which most likely will be broken (because almost all of them are at this point), and you're in for some maintenance and a flat wallet. Granted, the damned thing can be fixed easily, but I never got around to it. I just wrapped fucking tin foil around the resistor like a boss. Freezes every once and awhile, and you've gotta replace the foil every good pit, but I just keep mine perpetually screwless and a roll of foil around whenever I want to Snatch it up.

*Probably shouldn't do this. Don't take my advice. Ever.

[BIL]

Splashin' cash, gamin' hard, livin' dangerous! I LIKE THAT A LOT

[BrianC]

What do you think of the Worlds of Ultima games?

Ultima VI graphics and gameplay, but shorter, less cryptic and in a different setting. I suggest you try Ultima VI first and see if you like.

Not much point in that when both are free, though.

[mastermx]

Splashin' cash, gamin' hard, livin' dangerous! I LIKE THAT A LOT

They see me gamin, they hatin. Tryna catch me credit feedin, tryna catch me credit feedin

[Mischief Maker]

In the context of videogames, the term role-playing, on top of many other things, implies the presence of a system of rules(almost always related to morality) which determine the outcome of the game and/or influence its course in one way or another depending on the decisions made by the player.

Example of this in Demon's Souls: indiscriminately killing NPCs and invading other players' worlds will collapse your character tendency to Pure Black, lower your maximum HP in Soul Form and put you on the evil path of sorts by making the game's most evil NPC Mephistopheles spawn on the second floor of the Nexus and unlocking a new quest unavailable on Neutral and Pure White tendencies.

Example of this in Ultima VI: killing NPCs, taking things in people's homes and pickpocketing will make you lose your Karma points which may have an adverse effect on the game and block you from completing it since you need at least 75 Karma points to do so.

Example of this in Final Fantasy: ???

Dude, you're giving your own definitions to established terms left and right.

"Euroshmup" is not a literal term, it refers to a sub-genre of shmups based on certain gameplay elements, not the region of origin. Same with the term "JRPG."

RPG originally referred to pen and paper role playing games like dungeons and dragons. These are essentially games of pretend with wargame-derived rules determined by random dice rolls so you don't have players end up in a situation of "I shooted you!" "No you didn't!" "Yes I did!"

RPGs as a videogame genre started out as attempts to recreate the experience of playing Dungeons and Dragons on a computer, using the dungeons and dragons ruleset. Many innovations have been added over the last 30 years, but ultimately the RPG genre in video gaming draws its roots from DnD: Player avatars whose skills and abilities were determined by abstract stats and whose success was determined by random dice rolls. That's why a game like, say, "Day of the Tentacle" was never called an RPG, even though the character is definitely taking on a role and making decisions that shape the world around them. Day of the Tentacle has no stats, no random dice rolls, no levels, nothing in common with Dungeons and Dragons' rule system. JRPGs are an extremely simplistic sub-genre of the RPG genre: a heavily scripted linear story whose gameplay banks entirely on the experience of leveling up.

"Cthulhu saves the world" is another example of a game made by western developers that is nonetheless totally identifiable as a JRPG. Dark Spire is an example of a game made by a Japanese developer that is totally NOT a JRPG.

[Some-Mist]

Yeah... I bought Snatcher like three years ago for the retarded price of $150. Now it's like twice that price. Add on the cost of a SegaCD, which most likely will be broken (because almost all of them are at this point), and you're in for some maintenance and a flat wallet. Granted, the damned thing can be fixed easily, but I never got around to it. I just wrapped fucking tin foil around the resistor like a boss. Freezes every once and awhile, and you've gotta replace the foil every good pit, but I just keep mine perpetually screwless and a roll of foil around whenever I want to Snatch it up.

*Probably shouldn't do this. Don't take my advice. Ever.

regardless of the shape, I'm still jealous that you own a copy since it's such a unique game. we really need more cyberpunk point and click adventures.

Still playing Mario Golf World Tour. Getting very close to getting all of the moon coins for the non-DLC courses. Definitely much harder than the star coins. Computer players make long putts, chip in shots, and sometimes even hole in one the shorter holes. Coins and rings are in more out of the way areas too. Courses have strong wind, as well.

this is basically one of the only reasons I want a 3DS (and recca)


anyway, hosted an old TFC clanmate from Toronto at my place last weekend and he got me in the mood to play some Team Fortress Classic again... so me and him have been ruling the pubs lately.

[drauch]

SPASHINNNNNNNNN' CAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH.

Yeah, really wish there were more cyberpunk games. Have you played the SegaCD version of Rise of the Dragon? Looks rad, but I haven't delved in yet. I'd still like to get my hands on some of the other PC cyberpunk adventure games, especially Neuromancer. I really dig it all, regardless of game stylinz: stuff like Syndicate, System Shock 1/2, Deus Ex, etc...